So have the JTII comments post-Creighton helped?

[RockawayHoya]

Weeks ago I thought it'd be interesting to see how this played out. We had come off a bunch of horribly officiated games (Nova, UConn, Creighton) in a row and it prompted JTII to make some vulgar (and warranted, IMO) comments about how our games had been officiated. It was either going to go one of two ways: either we'd start to see some more even officiating (our cutters drawing more fouls for being impeded, our bigs getting to the line more when deserved in the paint, etc.), or we'd see more of the same.

Well, here's what the fouling looks like post-Creighton:

vs. Prov: 22 fouls on GU (10-13 FT), 14 on Prov. (24-33 FT)
@ Butler: 29 fouls on GU (11-16 FT), 17 on Butler (31-38 FT)
@ SHU: 30 fouls on GU (17-25 FT), 20 on SHU (20-33 FT)
vs. SJU: 25 fouls on GU (18-24 FT), 21 on SJU (17-27 FT)
@ Prov.: 25 fouls on GU (14-16 FT), 15 on Prov. (27-36 FT)

Now, don't get me wrong. We played pathetic and with no effort for the first 20 minutes today against Providence and that's what caused us to go down big. And for the most part, our level of discipline as a team isn't great on either end of the floor. But for me, there are two huge issues right now. First, we cannot get to the line when we deserve to. It's very telling when we have a 1st-team all-conference guy who is allowed to get raked across the face on a drive without a whistle. And how many times are Derrickson and Govan not going to get and-1's simply because they aren't diving to the ground after contact like Bentil? Second, it seems to me like the officials are simply looking at the end result to determine whether or not a whistle happens. If an opposing player is wildly out of control but falls to the ground, it's a foul. If we get hit but stand upright, it's not a foul. Ton of late whistles in today's game after the play was over.

I see an improved and conscientious effort on the part of some our guys (particularly Peak and Copeland) to body up their guys and not reach as much as they did earlier in the year. But the damage has been done. Seems like we can't shake a bias in reputation that we're simply a team that will foul, and when in doubt, blow the whistle.

It's clear the JTII comments have not had the intended effect. In fact, it may have gone the other way. I saw JTIII working the officials multiple times today, especially on our end when he felt we should have gone to the line but did not. But it's clear whatever he is doing is not enough. So what is the next step? Blow-up post game presser like Esh? Get ejected during a game? The message has not gotten across, and it needs to be sent in a different way. The bottom line is that this cannot be allowed to continue (whether for this season or future seasons), because the above fouling rates are just not sustainable for any team to compete and be successful.

[prhoya]

Feb 13, 2016 14:44:14 GMT -5 RockawayHoya said:

Weeks ago I thought it'd be interesting to see how this played out. We had come off a bunch of horribly officiated games (Nova, UConn, Creighton) in a row and it prompted JTII to make some vulgar (and warranted, IMO) comments about how our games had been officiated. It was either going to go one of two ways: either we'd start to see some more even officiating (our cutters drawing more fouls for being impeded, our bigs getting to the line more when deserved in the paint, etc.), or we'd see more of the same.

Well, here's what the fouling looks like post-Creighton:

vs. Prov: 22 fouls on GU (10-13 FT), 14 on Prov. (24-33 FT)
@ Butler: 29 fouls on GU (11-16 FT), 17 on Butler (31-38 FT)
@ SHU: 30 fouls on GU (17-25 FT), 20 on SHU (20-33 FT)
vs. SJU: 25 fouls on GU (18-24 FT), 21 on SJU (17-27 FT)
@ Prov.: 25 fouls on GU (14-16 FT), 15 on Prov. (27-36 FT)

Now, don't get me wrong. We played pathetic and with no effort for the first 20 minutes today against Providence and that's what caused us to go down big. And for the most part, our level of discipline as a team isn't great on either end of the floor. But for me, there are two huge issues right now. First, we cannot get to the line when we deserve to. It's very telling when we have a 1st-team all-conference guy who is allowed to get raked across the face on a drive without a whistle. And how many times are Derrickson and Govan not going to get and-1's simply because they aren't diving to the ground after contact like Bentil? Second, it seems to me like the officials are simply looking at the end result to determine whether or not a whistle happens. If an opposing player is wildly out of control but falls to the ground, it's a foul. If we get hit but stand upright, it's not a foul. Ton of late whistles in today's game after the play was over.

I see an improved and conscientious effort on the part of some our guys (particularly Peak and Copeland) to body up their guys and not reach as much as they did earlier in the year. But the damage has been done. Seems like we can't shake a bias in reputation that we're simply a team that will foul, and when in doubt, blow the whistle.

It's clear the JTII comments have not had the intended effect. In fact, it may have gone the other way. I saw JTIII working the officials multiple times today, especially on our end when he felt we should have gone to the line but did not. But it's clear whatever he is doing is not enough. So what is the next step? Blow-up post game presser like Esh? Get ejected during a game? The message has not gotten across, and it needs to be sent in a different way. The bottom line is that this cannot be allowed to continue (whether for this season or future seasons), because the above fouling rates are just not sustainable for any team to compete and be successful.

JT3 needs to push it with BE HQ. The press conference has to be about that foul to DSR's head. JT2 should call out some more. We cannot get called for more fouls than what we're getting right now, so the damage is done.

[HarbinHoya]

Agree 100% with this post. It doesn't matter we were
down 26, we came back. I don't believe in "deserved to win" logic. If you win, you win. It doesn't excuse the refs from not giving you calls on criticall plays. Please tell me you think any other teams senior leader wouldn't get that call especially against the Hoyas. We never get that call. It's maddening

[MCIGuy]

Great post. I saw some maddening inconsistency from the refs today. Providence not only got all the calls when they missed shots at the basket (bailed out time and time again), but it also seemed as if every call regarding whose possession it was after a ball fell out of bounds went against Gtown. That being said the Hoyas still don't go to the hole enough.

Ultimately though III may need to throw a chair or two. Whatever he does there needs to be a big talk with BE higherups after the season. The ft discrepancy is alarming.

[LCPolo18]

Felt like Dunn could get a foul any time he wanted on offense, and even when he tried to foul on defense (grabbing LJs jersey on a fast break) the refs wouldn't call it. Incredibly frustrating.

[DanMcQ]

I was screaming about that non call when Dunn elbowed DSR in the head as he blocked the shot late in the game - it was clear as day from my seats in 119. There is no excuse for a crew of 3 veteran college refs to miss a call like that. Meanwhile, Dunn got away with at least three 4-step travels and virtually any time a Hoya defender played D on him in the second half it was called a foul.

I thought 3 not blowing a gasket on the refs was crucial in the second half. It took them a half to get started given Hayes' absence. They didn't need to be distracted by poor refs.

[Hoyas4Ever]

Feb 13, 2016 14:44:14 GMT -5 RockawayHoya said:

Weeks ago I thought it'd be interesting to see how this played out. We had come off a bunch of horribly officiated games (Nova, UConn, Creighton) in a row and it prompted JTII to make some vulgar (and warranted, IMO) comments about how our games had been officiated. It was either going to go one of two ways: either we'd start to see some more even officiating (our cutters drawing more fouls for being impeded, our bigs getting to the line more when deserved in the paint, etc.), or we'd see more of the same.

Well, here's what the fouling looks like post-Creighton:

vs. Prov: 22 fouls on GU (10-13 FT), 14 on Prov. (24-33 FT)
@ Butler: 29 fouls on GU (11-16 FT), 17 on Butler (31-38 FT)
@ SHU: 30 fouls on GU (17-25 FT), 20 on SHU (20-33 FT)
vs. SJU: 25 fouls on GU (18-24 FT), 21 on SJU (17-27 FT)
@ Prov.: 25 fouls on GU (14-16 FT), 15 on Prov. (27-36 FT)

Now, don't get me wrong. We played pathetic and with no effort for the first 20 minutes today against Providence and that's what caused us to go down big. And for the most part, our level of discipline as a team isn't great on either end of the floor. But for me, there are two huge issues right now. First, we cannot get to the line when we deserve to. It's very telling when we have a 1st-team all-conference guy who is allowed to get raked across the face on a drive without a whistle. And how many times are Derrickson and Govan not going to get and-1's simply because they aren't diving to the ground after contact like Bentil? Second, it seems to me like the officials are simply looking at the end result to determine whether or not a whistle happens. If an opposing player is wildly out of control but falls to the ground, it's a foul. If we get hit but stand upright, it's not a foul. Ton of late whistles in today's game after the play was over.

I see an improved and conscientious effort on the part of some our guys (particularly Peak and Copeland) to body up their guys and not reach as much as they did earlier in the year. But the damage has been done. Seems like we can't shake a bias in reputation that we're simply a team that will foul, and when in doubt, blow the whistle.

It's clear the JTII comments have not had the intended effect. In fact, it may have gone the other way. I saw JTIII working the officials multiple times today, especially on our end when he felt we should have gone to the line but did not. But it's clear whatever he is doing is not enough. So what is the next step? Blow-up post game presser like Esh? Get ejected during a game? The message has not gotten across, and it needs to be sent in a different way. The bottom line is that this cannot be allowed to continue (whether for this season or future seasons), because the above fouling rates are just not sustainable for any team to compete and be successful.

Great post Rockaway, I couldn't agree more with pretty much everything you posted. I will say in the first half like the UCONN game, outside of Peak, we were an end of the shot clock chuck a deep jumper up at the basket offense. The 2nd half though we were much more aggressive and getting to the basket or getting offensive rebounds and scoring inside yet we didn't get into the 1&1 bonus until Copeland was fouled on his 3 point attempt with 15 seconds left in the game. Now I will say we take to way many 3-Pt FGA every game. Almost half are shots today 28/58 FGA were from 3 point range. That's just a ridiculous amount and shows how 1 dimensional and impatient this team can get within the offense. At UCONN we took 31 3-pt FGA.

I Think we have developed a reputation of a soft perimeter team that rarely put pressure on the defense. Even Hayes a Govan usually score inside on jump hooks which are not powerful or contact attracting moves like a pump fake, drop step or up and under moves. On defense we must have a rep of a very handsy team because we pick up a lot of perimeter fouls and pushing or over top fouls near the basket. I can't tell you how many questionable at best fouls we get that other teams just don't get. Dunn has a rep of a superior defender so he is given the benefit of the doubt even though he is an extremely aggressive defender that makes a lot of contact on his man or in helpside. He absolutely hit DSR on the head on that drive. Now I'm not a believer in the Lebron James/D Wade soccer style flops but we do need do a better job of selling fouls to get the attention of the referees. DSR goes to the ground on that drive when he gets hit in the head maybe he sells the call. Several times today our cutters in particular Copeland, Peak and DSR were being held and impeded and the refs complete missed them. If you throw your hands up to shed the hold or you push your way through the impeding defender then maybe the refs notice and we start getting calls and getting to the line earlier in halves of games. Also we need to run the offense through LJ Peak as the primary ball handler. DSR just can't put pressure on the defense coming off pink and roll because he lacks the quickness and Campbell who has the quickness but allows the defense to push him out on the perimeter coming off the pick. LJ can down hill into the paint and set up shooters like DSR up with open perimeter looks and also draw fouls on the defense. Peak also has to sell it when he gets fouled as well. I've seen plays when he gets hammered and he gets no call because he plays through the contact.

I think JT3 absolutely needs to loose it in a game and pick up a Tech or even get tossed. He probably should have already gotten a tech or been tossed earlier this season. Today wasn't the day for him to get tossed but he needs to let the refs know that this is ridiculous and he's not going to stand for it. You see Calipari get tossed today and the game was called much tighter. The refs are supposed to call the game tighter after a tech is given to a coach or after a flagrant foul is assessed to a player.

[RockawayHoya]

My biggest gripe is exactly what you've pointed out, H4E. If there's a supposed emphasis on calling fouls on plays where the offensive player (especially without the ball) is impeded, I'm just not seeing it called in our favor, or even at all. There was one play about 2 minutes in where Tre absolutely got blown up on a cut. That's a play I remember thinking to myself that we would never be NOT called for a foul on that if our defender had done that. LCPolo's reference to the grab on Peak by Dunn on the fast break was also a memorable one as well. How ridiculous is it that we are in the double bonus late in the 2nd half and the other team has 4 fouls to give and are saving them to try and stop fast breaks?

Our guys don't go to the ground nearly enough, and I'm not advocating they start flopping soccer/Grayson Allen style to draw fouls. But I agree they certainly could do a better job selling calls. Unfortunately the macho stand-your-ground attitude that many of our guys have had doesn't result in favorable whistles. If this is what the NCAA wants, this is what we'll have to give them.

Also, great comment about Calipari. Shady recruiting tactics aside, it was a brilliant move by him. You can bet he got his team's attention with that early ejection. Our team could've used that same attentiveness at any point in the 1st half yesterday. Yes, 2 tech FTs would've ended up big in a game that came down to the final possession. But would they have bought us a better first half performance? At some point, there is no hurt in trying, because it is clear to me that the officials in this league do not take JTIII seriously when he complains about calls.

[Just Cos]

Am I alone that the conspiracy theories about fouls against Georgetown are sour grapes? I mean we don't go to the rim or pound it inside enough.

[eagle54]

Feb 14, 2016 21:46:14 GMT -5 Just Cos said:

Am I alone that the conspiracy theories about fouls against Georgetown are sour grapes? I mean we don't go to the rim or pound it inside enough.

I'm in agreement.  There's been some bad officiating especially the game that II went off but don't think it was some conspiracy but more incompetence that evening.  The comparison of fouls called on each team over the season is absolutely about our play versus the competition rather than some conspiracy to penalize us.  

[SaxaCD]

Feb 14, 2016 21:51:16 GMT -5 eagle54 said:

Feb 14, 2016 21:46:14 GMT -5 Just Cos said:

Am I alone that the conspiracy theories about fouls against Georgetown are sour grapes? I mean we don't go to the rim or pound it inside enough.

I'm in agreement.  There's been some bad officiating especially the game that II went off but don't think it was some conspiracy but more incompetence that evening.  The comparison of fouls called on each team over the season is absolutely about our play versus the competition rather than some conspiracy to penalize us.  

I don't think it's a conspiracy at all, but I do think teams (and players) can often get labels that are hard to shake and then color how referees see games playing out, even before the game has started. Happens all the time in sports. I do think it makes sense to keep up pressure on the league office, as officiating in the Big East this year has been atrocious for everyone. The crappier the refs, the more likely they are to fall back on "well, this team is foul prone, so we have to take an extra look at..." instead of just trusting themselves and calling the game as it is played, so if anything, that's where we pay a bit.

[joey0403p]

We are labeled as a team that fouls a lot. We are also labeled as a team that doesn't draw a lot of fouls.

This adds up and absolutely contributes to some of the stuff that is missed.

We can complain about bad calls. And there have been plenty. But completely agree with guys saying "we don't go to the rim strong" so we don't get calls. Just a fact

[SaxaCD]

Feb 15, 2016 16:49:31 GMT -5 joey0403p said:

We are labeled as a team that fouls a lot. We are also labeled as a team that doesn't draw a lot of fouls.

This adds up and absolutely contributes to some of the stuff that is missed.

We can complain about bad calls. And there have been plenty. But completely agree with guys saying "we don't go to the rim strong" so we don't get calls. Just a fact

I'd agree with all all of that! I think our rep exacerbates a problem that's already there.

[hoyainspirit]

Until near the end of January, the Hoyas consistently ranked in the top 30 in free throw rate. It's only been lately that our our ability to get to the line has plummeted.

[SaxaCD]

Feb 15, 2016 22:06:28 GMT -5 hoyainspirit said:

Until near the end of January, the Hoyas consistently ranked in the top 30 in free throw rate. It's only been lately that our our ability to get to the line has plummeted.

So that points to Big East officials calling way too many, the way I see it, if anything, since we don't really drive and board crash enough to be ranked at all.

[tashoya]

Feb 13, 2016 16:11:12 GMT -5 LCPolo18 said:

Felt like Dunn could get a foul any time he wanted on offense, and even when he tried to foul on defense (grabbing LJs jersey on a fast break) the refs wouldn't call it. Incredibly frustrating.

Dunn didn't get called for a bunch of fouls. Especially in the first half. The jersey grabbing was the most noticeable but he could have easily been rung up for 4 in the first and that's without rewatching or rewinding. We got some rough calls against us but it wasn't egregious. Some of them, as has been the norm this year, seem to have been predetermined. I didn't look more than twice at it but the attempted Bentil dunk that Trey contested seemed like a no call. As did the one against DSR on Bentil going up in traffic hoping to draw a whistle. Dunn can come from behind and clip DSR across the head on a blow-by and it's called "solid defensive effort" but if Isaac slaps at a ball from behind with no body contact it's a "stupid foul" on his part. I'm a homer so I have a difficult time differentiating between lopsided calls but it sure seems like we get the short end of the stick in a lot of games to the point where when the fouls seem more even, I get a little Editeded at the refs for not ringing our guys up for more fouls because we don't seem to learn. I do know that we haven't adjusted well enough to the new rules but the fouls that are a part of the standing rules seem to be an issue too. I'd like to see a few fouls, since we're picking them up anyway, that are message fouls. If you're going to attempt to foul a guy to have him miss a breakaway dunk or you're going to foul a guy because of a blown defensive assignment, put him on his ass. Go for the ball every time. But put him on his ass if you can't defend properly. I'm not saying foul with malice. Foul with purpose.

[tashoya]

Feb 15, 2016 16:49:31 GMT -5 joey0403p said:

We are labeled as a team that fouls a lot. We are also labeled as a team that doesn't draw a lot of fouls.

This adds up and absolutely contributes to some of the stuff that is missed.

We can complain about bad calls. And there have been plenty. But completely agree with guys saying "we don't go to the rim strong" so we don't get calls. Just a fact

I'm not disagreeing but, even when we do go strong, we don't get calls. There were 2 blatant examples for LJ last game. They were somewhat out of control drives but he also got fouled.

On the flip side, while Dunn warrants all of the accolades he's gotten, he also gets to foul and travel on the regular. I get that star players get more calls and more respect. But come on. Kris Dunn is a great college player. But he's not a can't miss, first pick type player. Even if he was, he gets away with quite a bit. Even Arcidiacono would agree.

[OldHoyafan]

I too wondered how the JTII comments would affect future foul calling on the Hoyas. The stats above show that the comments have not had the desired affect. The Hoyas have fouled a lot this season as have other teams given the new rules, however the rate the Hoyas are called seems much higher. I too have seen a concerted effort from Peak, Govan, Derrickson and Copeland not to reach and use their feet in defending their man to no avail in games of late. The Hoyas seem to be a marked team. I would like to compare the fouling stats of other teams that use the Princeton principles in their offense. Are they getting called for fouls also at an alarming rate? The new rules reflect the NCAA's attempt to speed up the game. Offenses that use the Princeton principles are considered slow offenses and are contrary to what the NCAA thinks the tv fans of college basketball want to see. If other Princeton type offenses are having the same fouling problem then maybe there is a bigger conspiracy.

[vv83]

Feb 16, 2016 2:30:14 GMT -5 OldHoyafan said:

I too wondered how the JTII comments would affect future foul calling on the Hoyas. The stats above show that the comments have not had the desired affect. The Hoyas have fouled a lot this season as have other teams given the new rules, however the rate the Hoyas are called seems much higher. I too have seen a concerted effort from Peak, Govan, Derrickson and Copeland not to reach and use their feet in defending their man to no avail in games of late. The Hoyas seem to be a marked team. I would like to compare the fouling stats of other teams that use the Princeton principles in their offense. Are they getting called for fouls also at an alarming rate? The new rules reflect the NCAA's attempt to speed up the game. Offenses that use the Princeton principles are considered slow offenses and are contrary to what the NCAA thinks the tv fans of college basketball want to see. If other Princeton type offenses are having the same fouling problem then maybe there is a bigger conspiracy.

There is no conspiracy - we just play lousy defense too often. at least Peak has been doing a better job recently. A lot of his recent fouls have come in late game situations where we are intentionally fouling. Derrickson i still struggling to defend without fouling - but he does have decent defensive instincts, as he has drawn far more charges than anyone else on the team. Govan is the one I am worried about for the long term. I don't know if he will ever really get the hang of defending the rim without fouling.

The other thing to note about our fouling is the inordinate number of moving screens we get called for on the offensive end. We usually pick up 3 or 4 of these a game - usually on Govan or hayes, but others have been called for this violation as well. The coaches have to be telling these guys not to move so much on their screens - it really is frustrating that the players keep making this same mistake over and over.

[Deleted]

Feb 16, 2016 3:32:38 GMT -5 vv83 said:

Feb 16, 2016 2:30:14 GMT -5 OldHoyafan said:

I too wondered how the JTII comments would affect future foul calling on the Hoyas. The stats above show that the comments have not had the desired affect. The Hoyas have fouled a lot this season as have other teams given the new rules, however the rate the Hoyas are called seems much higher. I too have seen a concerted effort from Peak, Govan, Derrickson and Copeland not to reach and use their feet in defending their man to no avail in games of late. The Hoyas seem to be a marked team. I would like to compare the fouling stats of other teams that use the Princeton principles in their offense. Are they getting called for fouls also at an alarming rate? The new rules reflect the NCAA's attempt to speed up the game. Offenses that use the Princeton principles are considered slow offenses and are contrary to what the NCAA thinks the tv fans of college basketball want to see. If other Princeton type offenses are having the same fouling problem then maybe there is a bigger conspiracy.

The other thing to note about our fouling is the inordinate number of moving screens we get called for on the offensive end. We usually pick up 3 or 4 of these a game - usually on Govan or hayes, but others have been called for this violation as well. The coaches have to be telling these guys not to move so much on their screens - it really is frustrating that the players keep making this same mistake over and over.

I think our reputation contributes to some of this. In reality, you could probably call a moving screen foul on two-thirds of picks set in college basketball. Happens all the time. And even when it doesn't happen, a lot of players fighting thru the picks flop to try to get the call.
If a ref is looking right at it, he'll call it. I think because of our reputation for fouling a lot, refs look for it more frequently when we are setting picks. So we get called for more of them.