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Post by williambraskyiii on Feb 2, 2016 10:53:31 GMT -5
It is sad to see the program giving in to this false narrative. Play your style and let things fall where they may. Please do not sell out to these bogus new rules. This is 100% accurate. -Said no one. Ever.
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Post by hoyasaxa2003 on Feb 2, 2016 10:56:20 GMT -5
The arbitrary and capricious enforcement argument falls flat. The fact is, the fouls might sometimes be called in arbitrary ways, but that's true for every team in the nation. It's not like there is a big conspiracy among college officials to call games in an arbitrary manner whenever Georgetown is involved. And, 300+ teams manage to foul less than us.
I am not saying that we shouldn't play tough defense. We should, but we should do it within the scope of the rules so that we aren't spotting our opponents easy points.
As of now, KenPom says we are the 65th best defense, yet we are 327 in fouling opponents (based on FTA/FGA). Of the 64 defenses better than ours, only a few are worse at fouling on defense (West Virginia - worst in the country, Wichita State, Indiana State, Middle Tennessee, Wright State).
So basically, of the 64 defenses better than ours, only 5 are worse at fouling. And 59 are better. So, it's very possible to play good defense and foul less.
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Post by hoyalove4ever on Feb 2, 2016 11:04:09 GMT -5
Folks, this argument is just a philosophical one, and we will have to agree to disagree. I feel that the new rules are an affront to the very core of the sport and cannot in good faith support them in any respect whatsoever. I also feel that the purported impact of our team playing traditional defense within the valid rules of basketball is incredibly overblown. I am okay with some short-term pain in this fight. But I want us fighting the fight.
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drquigley
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Post by drquigley on Feb 2, 2016 11:08:55 GMT -5
What? Read the Wash Post article. LJ fouled out of 7 games before he was removed from starting lineup. Fouled out of 3 straight games in December. Gotta have him play 30+ minutes every game.
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Post by professorhoya on Feb 2, 2016 11:22:26 GMT -5
The arbitrary and capricious enforcement argument falls flat. The fact is, the fouls might sometimes be called in arbitrary ways, but that's true for every team in the nation. It's not like there is a big conspiracy among college officials to call games in an arbitrary manner whenever Georgetown is involved. And, 300+ teams manage to foul less than us. I am not saying that we shouldn't play tough defense. We should, but we should do it within the scope of the rules so that we aren't spotting our opponents easy points. As of now, KenPom says we are the 65th best defense, yet we are 327 in fouling opponents (based on FTA/FGA). Of the 64 defenses better than ours, only a few are worse at fouling on defense (West Virginia - worst in the country, Wichita State, Indiana State, Middle Tennessee, Wright State). So basically, of the 64 defenses better than ours, only 5 are worse at fouling. And 59 are better. So, it's very possible to play good defense and foul less. No it doesn't. Georgetown trademark has always been aggressive, physical man to man defense. So it makes sense that they are hurt by the rules and foul more with the rules. As does Huggins West Virginia. Huggins has always had very physical defense and they are the number 3 fouling team in the nation. Guess who is number one. Noah Dickerson's University of Washington. Certain styles are hurt more when the rules change while certain styles benefit. That should be common sense. Syracuse is probably a good counter example since all they do is play 2-3 zone anyway. The rules favor them since most teams are going to zone to alleviate the fouling and Syracuse (27th best at not fouling) already has the right personnel and experience in playing 2-3.
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CTHoya08
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Post by CTHoya08 on Feb 2, 2016 12:03:40 GMT -5
It is sad to see the program giving in to this false narrative. Play your style and let things fall where they may. Please do not sell out to these bogus new rules. Am I reading this right? Is this a "JTIII needs to be more stubborn" argument?
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Post by hoyalove4ever on Feb 2, 2016 12:16:11 GMT -5
Yes, absolutely.
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Post by hoyasaxa2003 on Feb 2, 2016 12:16:15 GMT -5
Georgetown trademark has always been aggressive, physical man to man defense. So it makes sense that they are hurt by the rules and foul more with the rules. As does Huggins West Virginia. Huggins has always had very physical defense and they are the number 3 fouling team in the nation. Guess who is number one. Noah Dickerson's University of Washington. Certain styles are hurt more when the rules change while certain styles benefit. That should be common sense. Syracuse is probably a good counter example since all they do is play 2-3 zone anyway. The rules favor them since most teams are going to zone to alleviate the fouling and Syracuse (27th best at not fouling) already has the right personnel and experience in playing 2-3. I understand that an aggressive, physical man to man defense might garner more fouls than Syracuse's zone under the new rules. I certainly do not debate that the new rules hurt us more than some other teams. But, that's the reality of the new rules. And I don't think some civil disobedience type of approach, which basically advocates ignoring the new rules, is the answer because it hurts us. Also, the difference is that aside from fouling a lot, West Virginia has the 6th best offense in the country. We have the 65th. Arguably, West Virginia could be a lot better if they fouled less, but at least they are generally a good defense otherwise. Contrarily, Georgetown's defense is not that good, and the easiest way to fix it is to foul less, so we should do that. When you are an elite defense, you might be able to afford to give away some extra points through fouls; when you are like us, you cannot.
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Post by hoyalove4ever on Feb 2, 2016 12:18:34 GMT -5
III and Huggins should form a group of disgruntled coaches to deal with this issue. The least they could do would be to kidnap Jay Bilas and break his kneecaps for advocating this garbage.
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OldHoyafan
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Post by OldHoyafan on Feb 2, 2016 12:31:24 GMT -5
I disagree with that claim, but assuming without at all conceding it is correct, I am fine with it. You have to take a stand when A) the rules are patently absurd on their face and B) they are being applied to you in an arbitrary and capricious manner. If every coach stood up after every game and acted like Big John, we would not be saddled with this crap. This purported "problem" is a short-term one. Things will not continue to be called this way. There will be another adjustment this off-season. We just need to stay the course rather than jumping on and off the boat. And to be clear, as many others have pointed out, only a small portion of our fouls even fall into the category we are discussing. The majority occur because we are beaten on defense. I am fine with us giving up foul shots rather than lay-ups. It all starts with poor defense. THAT is where we should be focusing our attention. Wow. Rather give up fouls than layups??? You realize that giving up fouls means giving up players committing those fouls? Agree it all starts with bad defense but I'd much rather have LJ or DSR on the court giving up an occasional layup than disqualified after stopping 5 layups by fouling. I believe DSR has been instructed by JTIII not to be as aggressive keeping his man out of the lane because of this very reason. If he played the same type of defense he played against Watson in the final 4 minutes of the Creighton game, in the beginning of the game he would be sitting for most of the first half. He is too important so we see this matador defense by him whenever his man goes to the basket. I know the refs don't call it as tight at the end, but you can see a a big difference in the effort of DSRtrying to avoid an early foul. I really do not see a correction that can be made this year with Hayes starting the games. He just does not have the recovery speed to get back in proximity of his man after hedging on a pick out front, nor the mobility to stick with guard who has gotten around defender. Next year Govan with practice will do a much better job.
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EtomicB
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Post by EtomicB on Feb 2, 2016 12:47:50 GMT -5
Georgetown trademark has always been aggressive, physical man to man defense. So it makes sense that they are hurt by the rules and foul more with the rules. As does Huggins West Virginia. Huggins has always had very physical defense and they are the number 3 fouling team in the nation. Guess who is number one. Noah Dickerson's University of Washington. Certain styles are hurt more when the rules change while certain styles benefit. That should be common sense. Syracuse is probably a good counter example since all they do is play 2-3 zone anyway. The rules favor them since most teams are going to zone to alleviate the fouling and Syracuse (27th best at not fouling) already has the right personnel and experience in playing 2-3. I understand that an aggressive, physical man to man defense might garner more fouls than Syracuse's zone under the new rules. I certainly do not debate that the new rules hurt us more than some other teams. But, that's the reality of the new rules. And I don't think some civil disobedience type of approach, which basically advocates ignoring the new rules, is the answer because it hurts us. Also, the difference is that aside from fouling a lot, West Virginia has the 6th best offense in the country. We have the 65th. Arguably, West Virginia could be a lot better if they fouled less, but at least they are generally a good defense otherwise. Contrarily, Georgetown's defense is not that good, and the easiest way to fix it is to foul less, so we should do that. When you are an elite defense, you might be able to afford to give away some extra points through fouls; when you are like us, you cannot. WVU fouls a lot due to their full court press which produces more steals/turnovers than any team in the country.. It's a trade off I'm sure Huggins welcomes..
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Feb 2, 2016 13:03:00 GMT -5
www.cbssports.com/collegebasketball/eye-on-college-basketball/25356228/qa-west-virginias-bob-huggins-on-adjusting-to-big-12CBS Sports: Will you alter anything in terms of your style of play based on the new rules that we're going to see implemented this season? Huggins: I don't know until I see them -- you know what I mean. If every time you touch somebody it's a foul, everyone should just play pack line defense right? Think about this -- this whole deal started when Wisconsin went to the Final Four and the score was 50-something to 49 or whatever. Everybody said we have to do something to help scoring. Well shortening the clock isn't going to help scoring. All that's going to do is make people play more pack line defense. All this stuff about not being able to touch people on defense -- let me ask you this: how much sense does that you can't touch somebody at half court because it's a foul, but you can stick your forearm in the back when they're in the post? Does that make any sense? And they want to increase scoring? It's going to wind up being like soccer where you just line up and the team that makes the most free throws is going to win. I don't think that's what people want to watch if that's what we're after. I think we're after ratings and what appeals. Honestly, I think we're all screwed up. We're comparing our ratings to the NBA. Well the NBA never competes against each other. You don't have two NBA games on at once -- not even on different networks. Where with us there can be five or six games on at once. Obviously we're not going to have same viewing audience you're going to have if you're only viewing one game.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 2, 2016 13:19:09 GMT -5
www.usatoday.com/story/sports/ncaab/2016/01/13/new-ncaa-mens-basketball-rules-having-intended-effect/78748228/These efforts to improve the on-court product appear to have had their intended effect so far this season, with scoring up and more possessions per team per game throughout nonconference play — an encouraging sign for those involved amid very limited grumbling from coaches. Scoring has increased 5.32 points per team, per game from 2014-15 (up 7.9%), according to data supplied by KPISports.com through Jan. 10. Scoring is also higher than the 71.8 points per game teams averaged through the second Sunday after New Year’s Day in 2013-14 — the last season that included a concerted officiating effort to clean up physicality, which led to an uptick in fouls called and early scoring. Other notable trends: Possessions are up 3.87 per team, per game (up 5.8%) from 2014-15 to 2015-16; and 73.1 % of the scoring increase can be attributed to the increased pace of play, and 26.9% is attributable to increased offensive efficiency (points per possession). Nearly 70% of the scoring increase is from made field goals, while 13.4% of the increase is from additional made free throws — a sign that the scoring uptick is not simply due to a parade of free throw shooting. _________________
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HoyaChris
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Post by HoyaChris on Feb 2, 2016 13:37:05 GMT -5
I don't think we have a fouling problem at all. I think we are excellent at it.
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OldHoyafan
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Post by OldHoyafan on Feb 2, 2016 15:09:28 GMT -5
I don't think we have a fouling problem at all. I think we are excellent at it. Great post!
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Bigs"R"Us
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Post by Bigs"R"Us on Feb 2, 2016 18:36:31 GMT -5
Maybe while we are lobbying against the new rules, we can request that the NCAA do away with the three point line. We did great when big men ruled the game. Adapt or perish!
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Post by hoyasaxa2003 on Feb 3, 2016 10:43:48 GMT -5
Real life has prevented me from updating this thread. But, we still have major fouling problems. If anything, they have gotten worse, and the Butler game was atrocious:
Georgetown: 22 DePaul: 21 (away) Georgetown: 23 Marquette: 21 (home) Georgetown: 20 Creighton: 10 (away) Georgetown: 18 DePaul: 23 (home) Georgetown: 28 St. Johns: 24 (away) Georgetown: 23 Villanova: 13 (home) Georgetown: 19 Xavier: 21 (away) Georgetown: 27 Connecticut: 13 (away - OOC) Georgetown: 26 Creighton: 21 Georgetown: 22 Providence: 14 Georgetown: 29 Butler: 16
In total, since the start of conference play, Georgetown has fouled 257 times, and our opponents have fouled 197 times.
This has created a huge free throw disparity. Since the beginning of conference play, Georgetown has taken 213 free throws. Our opponents have taken 304 - a difference of 91! If you look at made free throws, we have made 167 and they have made 230, a disparity of 63.
So essentially, we have a huge deficit in giving free throws to other teams, but we shoot them better than our opponents, so the disparity isn't quite as bad as it could be.
Since the beginning of conference, Georgetown has shot FTs at 78.4%, opponents have shot at 75.66%.
The fouling is a huge problem. You cannot beat a team like Butler if you give them 22 more free throws than we have.
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Post by hoyalove4ever on Feb 3, 2016 10:47:06 GMT -5
You also cannot beat a team like Butler if you allow their players to penetrate at will. I will take the foul over the easy shot every team. Again, the problem is with moving our feet and fundamental defense much, much more than with fouling.
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KHoyaNYC
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Post by KHoyaNYC on Feb 3, 2016 12:16:32 GMT -5
We make so many dumb fouls. I wouldnt be nearly as upset by these numbers if more of them were of the "hard foul to prevent the easy lay up" or "being aggressive in the press and going for a steal and easy two" variety. But, by and large, they aren't.
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seaweed
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Post by seaweed on Feb 3, 2016 13:26:20 GMT -5
Just for fun, I took a look at some BEast foul #s, games for Creighton, Provy, XU, VU and Butler. And us. A couple of observations:
Each team except Xavier had their season low foul total against us. Take out 3 fouls in the last two minutes in the Xavier game and they get their season low against us too. Excepting the Xavier game, the foul differential v. GU is more than twice what it is in other games, such that if Creighton commits 2 fewer against other opponents, they commit 7.5 fewer against us. Butler usually commits 3.6 fouls more than its opponents, but committed 12 fewer than us, earning a +15.6 deviation from average (yes, including our intentional fouls at the end of the game, but they were still 6.7 below their own average). Of games played by these 5 teams, the 4 largest foul discrepancies are against GU - 12 last night, 10 v. Nova and CU and 8 v. Provy. Three of the four lowest number of fouls committed by a team are games v. GU, Creighton (10), VU (13 - Provy also had 13 against Nova) & Provy (14).
Maybe we foul a lot, but teams also seem to do exceptionally well at not fouling us. Style of play? Coincidence? Conspiracy? You make the call.
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