drquigley
Diamond Hoya (over 2500 posts)
Posts: 3,377
|
Post by drquigley on Jan 18, 2016 23:16:08 GMT -5
Monmouth obviously gets it. They beat Iona last night 110-100.
|
|
|
Post by hoyalove4ever on Jan 19, 2016 7:27:16 GMT -5
Seriously, we have this discussion right after we hold an elite team to fifty-five points??? Fouling is not among the top ten issues for this team or the program.
|
|
hoyainspirit
Platinum Hoya (over 5000 posts)
When life puts that voodoo on me, music is my gris-gris.
Posts: 8,392
|
Post by hoyainspirit on Jan 19, 2016 8:41:55 GMT -5
Oh, I think it's in the top 10, considering how bad we are at it.
|
|
|
Post by Lethal_Interjection on Jan 19, 2016 9:34:57 GMT -5
Oh, I think it's in the top 10, considering how bad we are at it. Bingo
|
|
NCHoya
Diamond Hoya (over 2500 posts)
Posts: 2,924
|
Post by NCHoya on Jan 19, 2016 15:35:01 GMT -5
Looks like we are not the only ones with the fouling issue under the new rules: tinyurl.com/jyfh3akHowever, look at who is holding himself accountable: “I’m going to have to do a better job of making sure they don’t foul,” Izzo said. “It’s going to fall on me, not them.”
|
|
DanMcQ
Moderator
Posts: 30,480
Member is Online
|
Post by DanMcQ on Jan 19, 2016 22:58:43 GMT -5
Much better tonight against Xavier. Peak in particular did much better moving his feet - his 4 fouls were virtually all legit (except the imaginary one called when he was pulled down by Macura).
|
|
|
Post by hoyalove4ever on Jan 20, 2016 8:02:30 GMT -5
Case in point last night- the other team was in the double-bonus early in the second half, but it did not matter because we played so well.
Fouling may not be a footnote for this season, but it is not one of the main issues with this team.
|
|
|
Post by johnnysnowplow on Jan 20, 2016 8:12:12 GMT -5
Case in point last night- the other team was in the double-bonus early in the second half, but it did not matter because we played so well. Fouling may not be a footnote for this season, but it is not one of the main issues with this team. How can you possibly make that assertion? Go ahead, name 10 issues that are contributing to our losses more than our astronomical foul rate. It's definitely pretty high up the list. And as has been mentioned earlier, this is now the third year in a row that we have been among the very worst in the country in this regard. It's a huge issue. Also, it's interesting to hear Izzo saying he thinks they have a problem when his team ranks 166th with a rate of 36.4 (national average is 36.6). We rank 315th with a rate of 44.4. So Izzo thinks his team has a problem with fouling when they're basically right at the national average but you don't think we do when ours is 8 points higher?
|
|
|
Post by hoyalove4ever on Jan 20, 2016 8:59:10 GMT -5
Perhaps it is an issue for MSU- I have not watched them a lot this year and will not comment.
In my respectful opinion, the following are much more serious issues for the Hoyas, in no particular order:
- lack of guards who can handle, penetrate, and distribute - lack of consistent outside shooting - rebounding - turnovers - ability to get the ball inside to our big men (related both to passing and catching the ball) - overall poor defense at times (mostly not due to fouling, but for instance letting unskilled and unathletic teams like Monmouth and UNC-A score a bunch of points on us; many other examples) - occasional huge mental lapses on defense - adjustments to changing defenses on offense - press break - cohesion between players due to youth, lineup variations, etc.
I could go on, and some of the issues on that list (rebounding, turnovers, defensive issues) could be broken into more sub-categories. From where I sit, fouling really is not a major problem.
|
|
|
Post by hoyasaxa2003 on Jan 20, 2016 10:52:52 GMT -5
As Dan noted, we did much better on fouls last night. We had 19 to Xavier's 21. Given that we were on the road, that's really excellent. Perhaps more encouraging for me is that Peak only had 2 in 25 minutes, which was extremely solid. Hayes and Govan did have 4 each, but I think both (especially Govan) played good defense.
I have updated my original figures after this game:
Georgetown: 22 DePaul: 21 (away) Georgetown: 23 Marquette: 21 (home) Georgetown: 20 Creighton: 10 (away) Georgetown: 18 DePaul: 23 (home) Georgetown: 28 St. Johns: 24 (away) Georgetown: 23 Villanova: 13 (home) Georgetown: 19 Xavier: 21 (away)
In total, Georgetown has fouled 153 times, and our opponents have fouled 133 times. Home, we have 64 fouls to our opponents 57. Away, we have fouled 89 times to our opponents 76.
Free Throws: In conference, Georgetown has shot 121/154 (78.57%) and our opponents have shot 129/173 (74.57%).
Before this game, we had a 27 FT deficit to our opponents, which has now shrunk to 19. Again, the fact that we are shooting FT's better than our opponents helps to make up for the deficit.
Incidentally, this is JT3's best free throw shooting team ever, and it's not even close. We are currently the 18th best FT shooting team nationally. The next best at Georgetown was the 2011 team, which was ranked 52 (for perspective, the otherwise very solid 2008 team was the worst, ranked 286 nationally).
(Fun fact: JT3's 2001-2002 team at Princeton ranked 38th nationally at free throws. Up until this year, that was his best free throw shooting team ever.)
|
|
|
Post by professorhoya on Jan 20, 2016 12:07:07 GMT -5
Case in point last night- the other team was in the double-bonus early in the second half, but it did not matter because we played so well. Fouling may not be a footnote for this season, but it is not one of the main issues with this team. How can you possibly make that assertion? Go ahead, name 10 issues that are contributing to our losses more than our astronomical foul rate. It's definitely pretty high up the list. And as has been mentioned earlier, this is now the third year in a row that we have been among the very worst in the country in this regard. It's a huge issue. Also, it's interesting to hear Izzo saying he thinks they have a problem when his team ranks 166th with a rate of 36.4 (national average is 36.6). We rank 315th with a rate of 44.4. So Izzo thinks his team has a problem with fouling when they're basically right at the national average but you don't think we do when ours is 8 points higher? Under the new rules defense and fouling will continue to be a problem for every team that plays tight man to man or packline. You look at Xavier they used to run pack the line man to man but Mack switch them over to 1-3-1 because he recognized how the new rules would hurt pack the line. (In previous years Xavier's pack the line gave us major problems). What happened in our game was we obliterated their 1-3-1 so he was forced to switch to man to man. At that point we had 6 fouls in the 2nd half to their 1 but then when they switched to man to man the foul parade started and we actually beat them to the bonus IIRC. They also couldn't guard DSR in the man to man. We basically outscored them (81-72). Was the defense good? Maybe it was better but we still gave up 72 points. My feeling is that with the new rules it is really impossible to play dominating effective and consistent defense so you really have to try to outscore your opponent.
|
|
|
Post by johnnysnowplow on Jan 20, 2016 12:13:37 GMT -5
Perhaps it is an issue for MSU- I have not watched them a lot this year and will not comment. In my respectful opinion, the following are much more serious issues for the Hoyas, in no particular order: - lack of guards who can handle, penetrate, and distribute - lack of consistent outside shooting - rebounding - turnovers - ability to get the ball inside to our big men (related both to passing and catching the ball) - overall poor defense at times (mostly not due to fouling, but for instance letting unskilled and unathletic teams like Monmouth and UNC-A score a bunch of points on us; many other examples) - occasional huge mental lapses on defense - adjustments to changing defenses on offense - press break - cohesion between players due to youth, lineup variations, etc. I could go on, and some of the issues on that list (rebounding, turnovers, defensive issues) could be broken into more sub-categories. From where I sit, fouling really is not a major problem. - We have 3 guards who can do all of those things, some better than others. DSR has been a truly great PG this year offensively. Our guard play is absolutely not a bigger issue than our ridiculous fouling. - We have shooters all over the floor. We shoot 37% as a team and 40% in conference. Our freaking C is an outside threat. What more do you want there? You want Steph Curry? We're not getting him. Our outside shooting is a strength, not a weakness. - Rebounding is a weakness, yes. Though it's been a bit better in conference and certainly better last night. - Yes we turn it over too much. It's an issue. - We sometimes struggle with entry passes and receiving those entry passes. It's gotten better recently. We passed the ball well into and out of the post last night. An issue but not bigger than the fouling - Defense has been an issue. Correct. It's been better the last two games, but still an area of concern. If you think Monmouth is unskilled and unathletic, you're watching the wrong team. - This is still just defense. See above. - Is this really a consistent issue? Is it really a bigger issue than fouling? I don't really think so. We seemed to do a good job of adjusting last night between 1-3-1 and man. - Press break has been shaky this year. We've given away leads late by not protecting the ball. I'd file this under "turnovers" though. At the end of the day, having a shaky press break only matters if you're turning it over. - This isn't a quantifiable issue. You're just guessing here that we have cohesion issues. There's no evidence to back this up. Yes, it's a young team and they're taking a while to come into their own. This isn't something that can be fixed. It's not an issue. It's a circumstance. I'll concede 4 actual issues in here that are (arguably) bigger than fouling - defense, turnovers, rebounding, passing (sometimes). Monmouth shot 31-37 from the line against us. MD was 23-32. Duke was 28-36. Creighton 21-25. Nova 16-22. How are you not seeing this as an issue???
|
|
|
Post by johnnysnowplow on Jan 20, 2016 12:18:23 GMT -5
Free Throws: In conference, Georgetown has shot 121/154 (78.57%) and our opponents have shot 129/173 (74.57%). Before this game, we had a 27 FT deficit to our opponents, which has now shrunk to 19. Again, the fact that we are shooting FT's better than our opponents helps to make up for the deficit. Incidentally, this is JT3's best free throw shooting team ever, and it's not even close. We are currently the 18th best FT shooting team nationally. The next best at Georgetown was the 2011 team, which was ranked 52 (for perspective, the otherwise very solid 2008 team was the worst, ranked 286 nationally). So now imagine how good this team could be if we could just stop fouling so damn much. They get to the line at a very high rate and they make a very high percentage of them. That would be a major weapon. But instead we pretty much give all those points back by fouling on defense at a very high rate.
|
|
|
Post by hoyalove4ever on Jan 20, 2016 12:42:32 GMT -5
Perhaps it is an issue for MSU- I have not watched them a lot this year and will not comment. In my respectful opinion, the following are much more serious issues for the Hoyas, in no particular order: - lack of guards who can handle, penetrate, and distribute - lack of consistent outside shooting - rebounding - turnovers - ability to get the ball inside to our big men (related both to passing and catching the ball) - overall poor defense at times (mostly not due to fouling, but for instance letting unskilled and unathletic teams like Monmouth and UNC-A score a bunch of points on us; many other examples) - occasional huge mental lapses on defense - adjustments to changing defenses on offense - press break - cohesion between players due to youth, lineup variations, etc. I could go on, and some of the issues on that list (rebounding, turnovers, defensive issues) could be broken into more sub-categories. From where I sit, fouling really is not a major problem. - We have 3 guards who can do all of those things, some better than others. DSR has been a truly great PG this year offensively. Our guard play is absolutely not a bigger issue than our ridiculous fouling. - We have shooters all over the floor. We shoot 37% as a team and 40% in conference. Our freaking C is an outside threat. What more do you want there? You want Steph Curry? We're not getting him. Our outside shooting is a strength, not a weakness. - Rebounding is a weakness, yes. Though it's been a bit better in conference and certainly better last night. - Yes we turn it over too much. It's an issue. - We sometimes struggle with entry passes and receiving those entry passes. It's gotten better recently. We passed the ball well into and out of the post last night. An issue but not bigger than the fouling - Defense has been an issue. Correct. It's been better the last two games, but still an area of concern. If you think Monmouth is unskilled and unathletic, you're watching the wrong team. - This is still just defense. See above. - Is this really a consistent issue? Is it really a bigger issue than fouling? I don't really think so. We seemed to do a good job of adjusting last night between 1-3-1 and man. - Press break has been shaky this year. We've given away leads late by not protecting the ball. I'd file this under "turnover" though. At the end of the day, having a shaky press break only matters if you're turning it over. - This isn't a quantifiable issue. You're just guessing here that we have cohesion issues. There's no evidence to back this up. Yes, it's a young team and they're taking a while to come into their own. This isn't something that can be fixed. It's not an issue. It's an circumstance. I'll concede 4 actual issues in here that are (arguably) bigger than fouling - defense, turnovers, rebounding, passing (sometimes). Monmouth shot 31-37 from the line against us. MD was 23-32. Duke was 28-36. Creighton 21-25. Nova 16-22. How are you not seeing this as an issue??? - In regard to the guards, Tre was injured and has been a non-factor for much of the year. DSR had some truly awful games. LJ has been incredibly inconsistent. That has been a huge issue. As we saw last, when our guards are all healthy and playing well, we are an elite team. - I agree that we have a lot of shooters, but we have struggled to hit shots consistently. We live and die too much with the outside shot, with too much dying happening. - Hitting the post is a huge issue; as was the case last night, when we are getting it inside at will, we are a different team. - The lineups are an issue, despite the fact that they are not quantifiable- not because you cannot put it into a metric does not mean it does not exist. The lineups last night played well together. Other lineups have gotten slaughtered. It is not anyone's fault, but it has been a big problem. UMD, Dook, and Nova are very good teams. We fouled a lot in those games because we were beaten over and over again on defense, and not because we have some inherent issue with fouling. Also, notably, we were in all of those games down to the wire! Monmouth was a debacle, and I agree that we fouled way too much in that game- and I would add, for no good reason, against an awful opponent. Against, Creighton, on the road, I do not think twenty-five fouls shots is all that bad; the issue is that they shot so well. So, from where I sit, fouling has been a major issue in about two of our games so far this year. I would argue that all of the issues I have cited have been prevalent in many more games than that.
|
|
|
Post by professorhoya on Jan 20, 2016 12:43:43 GMT -5
Free Throws: In conference, Georgetown has shot 121/154 (78.57%) and our opponents have shot 129/173 (74.57%). Before this game, we had a 27 FT deficit to our opponents, which has now shrunk to 19. Again, the fact that we are shooting FT's better than our opponents helps to make up for the deficit. Incidentally, this is JT3's best free throw shooting team ever, and it's not even close. We are currently the 18th best FT shooting team nationally. The next best at Georgetown was the 2011 team, which was ranked 52 (for perspective, the otherwise very solid 2008 team was the worst, ranked 286 nationally). So now imagine how good this team could be if we could just stop fouling so damn much. They get to the line at a very high rate and they make a very high percentage of them. That would be a major weapon. But instead we pretty much give all those points back by fouling on defense at a very high rate. Difficult under the new freedom of movement rules. Especially with tight man to man. When Xavier switched to man to man when they had 1 foul and we had 6, we started racking up fouls on them and beat them to the bonus. The best way to avoid fouls is to play 2-3 or 1-3-1 (Xavier have switch over from packline man to man to 1-3-1 this year exactly because of the rules). In man to man you will foul alot under the new rules. I suppose you could just not foul by planting yourself like a tree but then people will blow by you for layups or kickouts off dribble penetration to wide open 3pt shooters. Of course zone is kind of a flawed defense overall because if the opponent can find the holes in the zone and have the personnel they can destroy it like we did vs Xavier's 1-3-1. But under the current rules it's almost preferable to man to man or packline because it avoids foul trouble while being almost as effective. Now, III has been moving more and more to 2-3 zone with each game. So that will reduce fouls.
|
|
TBird41
Platinum Hoya (over 5000 posts)
"Roy! I Love All 7'2" of you Roy!"
Posts: 8,740
|
Post by TBird41 on Jan 20, 2016 13:09:14 GMT -5
So now imagine how good this team could be if we could just stop fouling so damn much. They get to the line at a very high rate and they make a very high percentage of them. That would be a major weapon. But instead we pretty much give all those points back by fouling on defense at a very high rate. Difficult under the new freedom of movement rules. Especially with tight man to man. When Xavier switched to man to man when they had 1 foul and we had 6, we started racking up fouls on them and beat them to the bonus. The best way to avoid fouls is to play 2-3 or 1-3-1 (Xavier have switch over from packline man to man to 1-3-1 this year exactly because of the rules). In man to man you will foul alot under the new rules. I suppose you could just not foul by planting yourself like a tree but then people will blow by you for layups or kickouts off dribble penetration to wide open 3pt shooters. Of course zone is kind of a flawed defense overall because if the opponent can find the holes in the zone and have the personnel they can destroy it like we did vs Xavier's 1-3-1. But under the current rules it's almost preferable to man to man or packline because it avoids foul trouble while being almost as effective. Now, III has been moving more and more to 2-3 zone with each game. So that will reduce fouls. One reason for the problem with fouls this year has been our inability to play a zone effectively. They're getting better at it, but for a lot of the season it effectively gave the other team an open three on every possession b/c guys didn't know / weren't executing their roles in the 2-3 zone properly
|
|
Cambridge
Platinum Hoya (over 5000 posts)
Canes Pugnaces
Posts: 5,301
|
Post by Cambridge on Jan 20, 2016 13:28:22 GMT -5
Much better tonight against Xavier. Peak in particular did much better moving his feet - his 4 fouls were virtually all legit (except the imaginary one called when he was pulled down by Macura). Macura should have been incarcerated for his conduct last night. Easily one of the dirtiest players in the Big East, if not the country.
|
|
SFHoya99
Blue & Gray (over 10,000 posts)
Posts: 17,735
Member is Online
|
Post by SFHoya99 on Jan 20, 2016 14:03:52 GMT -5
Free Throws: In conference, Georgetown has shot 121/154 (78.57%) and our opponents have shot 129/173 (74.57%). Before this game, we had a 27 FT deficit to our opponents, which has now shrunk to 19. Again, the fact that we are shooting FT's better than our opponents helps to make up for the deficit. Incidentally, this is JT3's best free throw shooting team ever, and it's not even close. We are currently the 18th best FT shooting team nationally. The next best at Georgetown was the 2011 team, which was ranked 52 (for perspective, the otherwise very solid 2008 team was the worst, ranked 286 nationally). So now imagine how good this team could be if we could just stop fouling so damn much. They get to the line at a very high rate and they make a very high percentage of them. That would be a major weapon. But instead we pretty much give all those points back by fouling on defense at a very high rate. I do wonder how much of our strong ability to get to the foul line is actually due to the fact that referees try to even out the game. Our own fouling issues may get us a few fouls a game. Either way, it'd be nice not to foul a ton. Our defense defends the 2 well, and we've been passable on the defensive boards. But other than that, it's not been good this year.
|
|
|
Post by hoyalove4ever on Jan 20, 2016 14:21:56 GMT -5
I do agree with the evening out, and I think that happened last night.
|
|
gujake
Silver Hoya (over 500 posts)
Posts: 831
|
Post by gujake on Jan 20, 2016 18:33:14 GMT -5
We basically outscored them (81-72). Was the defense good? Maybe it was better but we still gave up 72 points. My feeling is that with the new rules it is really impossible to play dominating effective and consistent defense so you really have to try to outscore your opponent. 72 points is below average now (mainly because of the 30 second clock). It's harder to play defense effectively, sure, but it's all relative. Teams still play defense better/worse than other teams, and that's still half the game.
|
|