drquigley
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LJ
Feb 4, 2016 10:44:15 GMT -5
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Post by drquigley on Feb 4, 2016 10:44:15 GMT -5
I started this discussion not to suggest LJ would really leave but to highlight how our offense is totally unsuited to his skills and style. If anything I was trying to empathize with him and maybe get someone on the Hilltops attention. Right now our opponents have us perfectly scouted. They understand our offense better than some of our players. So let's shake things up and try more fast break, run and gun. Since our opponents know we can't handle dribble penetration they run their guards right at us. Since our guards can't stop them anyway why not have our guards break the other way and hope our opponents miss some of their drives allowing us get some easy fast break baskets.
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Post by hoyalove4ever on Feb 4, 2016 10:55:28 GMT -5
I disagree that the opponents have us scouted perfectly by a long shot. And I disagree that athletic players like LJ are in any respect held back by our offense.
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hoyasaxa2003
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Post by hoyasaxa2003 on Feb 4, 2016 11:24:45 GMT -5
I realize that guys like Copeland and Peak likely have their eyes on the NBA, but keep in mind that they aren't only at Georgetown for basketball. For all we know, somebody like Peak might love Georgetown, the staff, etc. It really isn't all about basketball, especially when there might only be a handful of people on our roster who will realistically ever see the NBA.
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drquigley
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LJ
Feb 4, 2016 11:39:40 GMT -5
Post by drquigley on Feb 4, 2016 11:39:40 GMT -5
I realize that guys like Copeland and Peak likely have their eyes on the NBA, but keep in mind that they aren't only at Georgetown for basketball. For all we know, somebody like Peak might love Georgetown, the staff, etc. It really isn't all about basketball, especially when there might only be a handful of people on our roster who will realistically ever see the NBA. You know I really believed that up until 3-4 years ago. But when Hollis left I began to change my mind and Otto was the last straw. Kid had every "academic/GU love" reason to return for one more year. Parents were educators, not a top MacDonalds All American recruit, students and alumni loved him, getting a great education for free. But that NBA money is just too alluring. Kris Dunn is such an anomaly as to be almost a freak.
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hoyasaxa2003
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LJ
Feb 4, 2016 11:48:34 GMT -5
Post by hoyasaxa2003 on Feb 4, 2016 11:48:34 GMT -5
You know I really believed that up until 3-4 years ago. But when Hollis left I began to change my mind and Otto was the last straw. Kid had every "academic/GU love" reason to return for one more year. Parents were educators, not a top MacDonalds All American recruit, students and alumni loved him, getting a great education for free. But that NBA money is just too alluring. Kris Dunn is such an anomaly as to be almost a freak. I think there's a huge difference between Otto Porter and Hollis Thompson. Porter had an amazing sophomore season and was drafted third. There's no way he would have been drafted that high if he stayed another year (or two), so he made the right decision. And after a tough rookie season, it looks like Porter is likely to have a fine NBA career. The difference with Hollis Thompson is that his decision to leave was, at best, highly risky. He didn't play in the NBA in what would have been his senior year. He did eventually make it, thanks to latching onto the horrific 76ers, and it remains to be seen how much staying power he has. Either way, I am glad he made it, but I think he beat the odds on that one. So basically, my personal attitude is that if you can leave and get guaranteed NBA money go for it. But, if it's a highly questionable prospect (like DSR last spring, or Hollis), I think it's worthwhile to stick around. I realize others disagree, especially on Hollis, which is fine.
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drquigley
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LJ
Feb 4, 2016 11:49:56 GMT -5
Post by drquigley on Feb 4, 2016 11:49:56 GMT -5
I disagree that the opponents have us scouted perfectly by a long shot. And I disagree that athletic players like LJ are in any respect held back by our offense. Are you serious? Offensively our opponents have no fear of taking it to the hoop and crashing the offensive boards because they know they will have plenty of time to get back on defense as we walk the ball up. Defensively they pack the passing lanes. We hardly ever get back cut baskets anymore. Yes we stink defensively and Ike is killing us, and we are young, and Tre has not developed like we thought, and we miss White and AA, but that's all the more reason to change our offense and try something different. I'm tired of seeing us speeding up the game in the last 5 minutes trying to dig our way out of the hole we dig for ourselves during the first 35.
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rockhoya
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Post by rockhoya on Feb 4, 2016 12:05:37 GMT -5
For this exact reason, I find it really hard to believe Peak would transfer. If he wants out of the program, it seems more likely he'd go pro, even if he's not a lock to get drafted. Have to wonder if Peak regrets his decision - this system doesn't work for his game at all, and it hasn't been adjusted to maximize his strengths. This, imo, is now being way overblown. His fouls are keeping him off the floor otherwise he's playing pretty well. He's not done his soph year though, have some patience.
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rockhoya
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LJ
Feb 4, 2016 12:09:12 GMT -5
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Post by rockhoya on Feb 4, 2016 12:09:12 GMT -5
You know I really believed that up until 3-4 years ago. But when Hollis left I began to change my mind and Otto was the last straw. Kid had every "academic/GU love" reason to return for one more year. Parents were educators, not a top MacDonalds All American recruit, students and alumni loved him, getting a great education for free. But that NBA money is just too alluring. Kris Dunn is such an anomaly as to be almost a freak. I think there's a huge difference between Otto Porter and Hollis Thompson. Porter had an amazing sophomore season and was drafted third. There's no way he would have been drafted that high if he stayed another year (or two), so he made the right decision. And after a tough rookie season, it looks like Porter is likely to have a fine NBA career. The difference with Hollis Thompson is that his decision to leave was, at best, highly risky. He didn't play in the NBA in what would have been his senior year. He did eventually make it, thanks to latching onto the horrific 76ers, and it remains to be seen how much staying power he has. Either way, I am glad he made it, but I think he beat the odds on that one. So basically, my personal attitude is that if you can leave and get guaranteed NBA money go for it. But, if it's a highly questionable prospect (like DSR last spring, or Hollis), I think it's worthwhile to stick around. I realize others disagree, especially on Hollis, which is fine. Short-sellin Hollis' professional success makes for a good argument....
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Feb 4, 2016 12:14:58 GMT -5
1)Hardship waivers DO NOT EXIST.....
2) You don't transfer to get to the NBA faster when the league that drafts on age and Potential....
3) The last thing that LJ needs to prove to the NBA is he can score in the open floor. Needs to prove he can score out of sets and in the halfcourt which he has been doing.. Stock going up
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LJ
Feb 4, 2016 12:26:41 GMT -5
Post by hoyalove4ever on Feb 4, 2016 12:26:41 GMT -5
I disagree that the opponents have us scouted perfectly by a long shot. And I disagree that athletic players like LJ are in any respect held back by our offense. Are you serious? Offensively our opponents have no fear of taking it to the hoop and crashing the offensive boards because they know they will have plenty of time to get back on defense as we walk the ball up. Defensively they pack the passing lanes. We hardly ever get back cut baskets anymore. Yes we stink defensively and Ike is killing us, and we are young, and Tre has not developed like we thought, and we miss White and AA, but that's all the more reason to change our offense and try something different. I'm tired of seeing us speeding up the game in the last 5 minutes trying to dig our way out of the hole we dig for ourselves during the first 35. The sped-up offense when we are down at the end is misleading. Opponents are trying not to foul or give up open threes. Their defense is relaxed because they have the lead late. That does not mean that our offense would perform better if we played at that pace all of the time, and in my opinion, it would not be better that way. Players like Peak and DSR seem to have the green light to push the pace when appropriate. We should be okay with the fact that we are not a run-and-gun team, however, and we have the capability to run excellent half-court offense, but we need to execute better.
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wnyhoya
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Post by wnyhoya on Feb 4, 2016 13:03:05 GMT -5
I started this discussion not to suggest LJ would really leave but to highlight how our offense is totally unsuited to his skills and style. If anything I was trying to empathize with him and maybe get someone on the Hilltops attention. Right now our opponents have us perfectly scouted. They understand our offense better than some of our players. So let's shake things up and try more fast break, run and gun. Since our opponents know we can't handle dribble penetration they run their guards right at us. Since our guards can't stop them anyway why not have our guards break the other way and hope our opponents miss some of their drives allowing us get some easy fast break baskets. Anyone who doesn't believe this sentiment has on Hoya-colored glasses. Teams know exactly what we're going to do offensively. It's the same action every possession with slight variations thrown in there that make a difference sometimes but those times are few and far between. This offense does not maximize the abilities of the players that we have plain and simple. There is way too much stagnation where off-ball defenders can ball watch and not get burned. It's just so predictable what is going to happen. For example, when our five man catches it on the elbow and there are two people on that side of the court with him, the first guy on the wing goes back door and the second guy comes and receives the handoff trying to get into the lane. However, oftentimes the guy defending our five man hedges hard and we cannot take advantage of the overplay by hitting the five off the roll. This offense would work if we could do that, but we simply do not move the ball quick enough or have the passing ability to make that pass. I'm just tired of seeing this offense where we go east-west for 25 seconds in the possession and then have to force something usually resulting in a tough shot or a TO.
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LJ
Feb 4, 2016 13:50:00 GMT -5
Post by hoyalove4ever on Feb 4, 2016 13:50:00 GMT -5
So improve the passing rather than scrap the offense. Easy decision.
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drquigley
Diamond Hoya (over 2500 posts)
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LJ
Feb 4, 2016 13:53:30 GMT -5
Post by drquigley on Feb 4, 2016 13:53:30 GMT -5
I think there's a huge difference between Otto Porter and Hollis Thompson. Porter had an amazing sophomore season and was drafted third. There's no way he would have been drafted that high if he stayed another year (or two), so he made the right decision. And after a tough rookie season, it looks like Porter is likely to have a fine NBA career. The difference with Hollis Thompson is that his decision to leave was, at best, highly risky. He didn't play in the NBA in what would have been his senior year. He did eventually make it, thanks to latching onto the horrific 76ers, and it remains to be seen how much staying power he has. Either way, I am glad he made it, but I think he beat the odds on that one. So basically, my personal attitude is that if you can leave and get guaranteed NBA money go for it. But, if it's a highly questionable prospect (like DSR last spring, or Hollis), I think it's worthwhile to stick around. I realize others disagree, especially on Hollis, which is fine. Short-sellin Hollis' professional success makes for a good argument.... You proved my point. The only thing these players consider is their NBA prospect. All other feel good things about GU or the college experience quickly go by the wayside. That's why I really admire Dunn. One of the few who cared more about his teammates, his school, his education, and and his non-basketball future than NBA money.
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OldHoyafan
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LJ
Feb 4, 2016 14:49:31 GMT -5
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Post by OldHoyafan on Feb 4, 2016 14:49:31 GMT -5
So improve the passing rather than scrap the offense. Easy decision. I know the statement was meant to be sarcastic, but it is partly true. Improve the passing,but also improve the driving ability and the commitment to making and finishing hard cuts. The new rules have dictatated some changes in the system, but does anyone believe the Final Four team would be having the same issues to the extent this team has. Too many players on this team just do not have the prerequisite skills to run this system effectively. This system requires players that have 3 prerequisite skills; passing, adequate handle to get to basket with defender starting in front of you, and ability to stroke the 3pt shot. Of that Final Four team, other than Roy, who did not possess all of these skills? Who on this team possesses all three skills today? Is that bad recruiting? Yes and No. I mentioned in an earlier post that before the recent assistant coaching changes there were some less than adequate recruiting resulting in players who could not perform on the offensive end. I think III overcompensated for that and went after players who had demonstrated that they could stroke the 3pt shot and were mobile. He unfortunately did not put a premium on the other two prerequisite skills or maybe he saw the deficiencies and thought he and his staff could coach them up. That as of now has not happened. In Watching the highlights of Copeland 2 years ago, I thought the Hoyas would be lucky to keep him 2 years on the yard. The dunks after rebounds the straight line drives to the basket for dunks, the 3pt shot from all points behind the arc, wow! What I did not see was the ability to go to the hoop off the dribble with a defender starting from a position in front of him. As I see the hesitation and anxiety in his face when that situation occurs in game this year, and the poor result when he has tried to get to the hoop with a man on him(turnover, offensive charge, wild shot) no wonder he has lost confidence in the things he did well (3pt shot, mid range shot). I do not know if he demonstrated an adequate ability to pass the ball in HS. The same can be said of Derrickson, Peak, Campbell and Cameron. White though not fast demonstrated the ability to get to the basket with a man in front of him, and also he ability to hit a 3pt shot and pass in high school. Can all these players be coaxed up to have the ability to do the other two prerequisites? I think they can, but they do not have it now and this late in the season, odds are they will not have it by the end of regular season. This has been a long diatribe to say this system can work even with the present rules with some tweets, but you have to have players that can execute the skills necessary for said system.
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Hoyas4Ever
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Post by Hoyas4Ever on Feb 4, 2016 15:20:11 GMT -5
I started this discussion not to suggest LJ would really leave but to highlight how our offense is totally unsuited to his skills and style. If anything I was trying to empathize with him and maybe get someone on the Hilltops attention. Right now our opponents have us perfectly scouted. They understand our offense better than some of our players. So let's shake things up and try more fast break, run and gun. Since our opponents know we can't handle dribble penetration they run their guards right at us. Since our guards can't stop them anyway why not have our guards break the other way and hope our opponents miss some of their drives allowing us get some easy fast break baskets. Anyone who doesn't believe this sentiment has on Hoya-colored glasses. Teams know exactly what we're going to do offensively. It's the same action every possession with slight variations thrown in there that make a difference sometimes but those times are few and far between. This offense does not maximize the abilities of the players that we have plain and simple. There is way too much stagnation where off-ball defenders can ball watch and not get burned. It's just so predictable what is going to happen. For example, when our five man catches it on the elbow and there are two people on that side of the court with him, the first guy on the wing goes back door and the second guy comes and receives the handoff trying to get into the lane. However, oftentimes the guy defending our five man hedges hard and we cannot take advantage of the overplay by hitting the five off the roll. This offense would work if we could do that, but we simply do not move the ball quick enough or have the passing ability to make that pass. I'm just tired of seeing this offense where we go east-west for 25 seconds in the possession and then have to force something usually resulting in a tough shot or a TO. It's not a problem with the offense. It's a problem with the personnel running that aspect of the offense. That aspect of the offense works well with LJ because he has the ability to turn the corner and get down hill and with his jump shot falling it becomes even harder to defend. The real issue is DSR and Tre Campbell. DSR doesn't have the quickness to constantly turn the corner. Opponents know this so they have their 5 hedge hard on DSR to take away his jump shot, making him go east or west and with the size they take away his view of a wide open Hayes rolling to the basket. That's why Govan has worked better with DSR because he can toss it back to Govan who can just hover around 3 point line. Peak has actually been excelling in coming of the Hayes pick/handoff because LJ has the quickness to turn the corner consistently and the physicality and athleticism to finish at the rim. Tre Campbell has the quickness to turn the corner but is allergic to physicality and contact. He also comes off picks poorly and naturally drags them out because he doesn't want to go inside. So the problem isn't really Hayes, it's DSR and Tre's inability to turn the corner consistently off of the Hayes handoff/pick. I actually think that if JT3 is going to run that aspect of the offense, he should do it more with Peak coming off the pick/handoff and play DSR on the wing side of Peak to completely open up the driving lane forcing DSR's defender to choose whether to come of DSR and help or stay with DSR leaving the lane open for Peak to get to the rim.
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wnyhoya
Bulldog (over 250 posts)
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LJ
Feb 4, 2016 15:52:25 GMT -5
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Post by wnyhoya on Feb 4, 2016 15:52:25 GMT -5
Anyone who doesn't believe this sentiment has on Hoya-colored glasses. Teams know exactly what we're going to do offensively. It's the same action every possession with slight variations thrown in there that make a difference sometimes but those times are few and far between. This offense does not maximize the abilities of the players that we have plain and simple. There is way too much stagnation where off-ball defenders can ball watch and not get burned. It's just so predictable what is going to happen. For example, when our five man catches it on the elbow and there are two people on that side of the court with him, the first guy on the wing goes back door and the second guy comes and receives the handoff trying to get into the lane. However, oftentimes the guy defending our five man hedges hard and we cannot take advantage of the overplay by hitting the five off the roll. This offense would work if we could do that, but we simply do not move the ball quick enough or have the passing ability to make that pass. I'm just tired of seeing this offense where we go east-west for 25 seconds in the possession and then have to force something usually resulting in a tough shot or a TO. It's not a problem with the offense. It's a problem with the personnel running that aspect of the offense. That aspect of the offense works well with LJ because he has the ability to turn the corner and get down hill and with his jump shot falling it becomes even harder to defend. The real issue is DSR and Tre Campbell. DSR doesn't have the quickness to constantly turn the corner. Opponents know this so they have their 5 hedge hard on DSR to take away his jump shot, making him go east or west and with the size they take away his view of a wide open Hayes rolling to the basket. That's why Govan has worked better with DSR because he can toss it back to Govan who can just hover around 3 point line. Peak has actually been excelling in coming of the Hayes pick/handoff because LJ has the quickness to turn the corner consistently and the physicality and athleticism to finish at the rim. Tre Campbell has the quickness to turn the corner but is allergic to physicality and contact. He also comes off picks poorly and naturally drags them out because he doesn't want to go inside. So the problem isn't really Hayes, it's DSR and Tre's inability to turn the corner consistently off of the Hayes handoff/pick. I actually think that if JT3 is going to run that aspect of the offense, he should do it more with Peak coming off the pick/handoff and play DSR on the wing side of Peak to completely open up the driving lane forcing DSR's defender to choose whether to come of DSR and help or stay with DSR leaving the lane open for Peak to get to the rim. You're spot on with this. LJ is the only guy with the ability to turn the corner. I hope III starts using him in this role bc I think it maximizes his and DSR's best traits. It really comes back to recruiting and the inability to get guys with burst but also who are not afraid to get in there (unlike Tre, as you pointed out). All the more reason we need Chris Lykes!
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Hoyas4Ever
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LJ
Feb 4, 2016 16:05:42 GMT -5
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Post by Hoyas4Ever on Feb 4, 2016 16:05:42 GMT -5
It's not a problem with the offense. It's a problem with the personnel running that aspect of the offense. That aspect of the offense works well with LJ because he has the ability to turn the corner and get down hill and with his jump shot falling it becomes even harder to defend. The real issue is DSR and Tre Campbell. DSR doesn't have the quickness to constantly turn the corner. Opponents know this so they have their 5 hedge hard on DSR to take away his jump shot, making him go east or west and with the size they take away his view of a wide open Hayes rolling to the basket. That's why Govan has worked better with DSR because he can toss it back to Govan who can just hover around 3 point line. Peak has actually been excelling in coming of the Hayes pick/handoff because LJ has the quickness to turn the corner consistently and the physicality and athleticism to finish at the rim. Tre Campbell has the quickness to turn the corner but is allergic to physicality and contact. He also comes off picks poorly and naturally drags them out because he doesn't want to go inside. So the problem isn't really Hayes, it's DSR and Tre's inability to turn the corner consistently off of the Hayes handoff/pick. I actually think that if JT3 is going to run that aspect of the offense, he should do it more with Peak coming off the pick/handoff and play DSR on the wing side of Peak to completely open up the driving lane forcing DSR's defender to choose whether to come of DSR and help or stay with DSR leaving the lane open for Peak to get to the rim. You're spot on with this. LJ is the only guy with the ability to turn the corner. I hope III starts using him in this role bc I think it maximizes his and DSR's best traits. It really comes back to recruiting and the inability to get guys with burst but also who are not afraid to get in there (unlike Tre, as you pointed out). All the more reason we need Chris Lykes! Wnyhoya you know I agree with you 1000% on the reasons and need for Chris Lykes. I'm hoping that Jagan Mosely can come in and be a player that has quickness to turn the corner and attack of the pick and roll like LJ can. Jagan has the physical traits and skill set to be able to do this, I hope he has the mentality.
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Post by FrazierFanatic on Feb 4, 2016 16:34:25 GMT -5
Let me say the thing that no one wants to hear but may be heard a lot more in another month or two. Does LJ stay around for another year? In my mind he is being totally wasted on this team. Put him on a run and gun team and he would score 30 points a night and boost his NBA prospects. I have scoured the NCAA statistics, but I am having a hard time finding anyone on a run and gun team that is averaging 30 a game. Are we saying that LJ is the best scorer in the NCAA?? Who knew?
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drquigley
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LJ
Feb 4, 2016 18:53:49 GMT -5
Post by drquigley on Feb 4, 2016 18:53:49 GMT -5
Let me say the thing that no one wants to hear but may be heard a lot more in another month or two. Does LJ stay around for another year? In my mind he is being totally wasted on this team. Put him on a run and gun team and he would score 30 points a night and boost his NBA prospects. I have scoured the NCAA statistics, but I am having a hard time finding anyone on a run and gun team that is averaging 30 a game. Are we saying that LJ is the best scorer in the NCAA?? Who knew? Okay I exaggerated. But in a run and gun offense he would be our leading scorer and average 20+ a game.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Feb 4, 2016 19:06:58 GMT -5
I have scoured the NCAA statistics, but I am having a hard time finding anyone on a run and gun team that is averaging 30 a game. Are we saying that LJ is the best scorer in the NCAA?? Who knew? Okay I exaggerated. But in a run and gun offense he would be our leading scorer and average 20+ a game. That's still a huge stretch. Do people realize how hard it is to average 20+ in HM basketball... There's 5 in the entire nation I'm all in on LJ but even if you think that he could be the sixth his foul rate would prevent that from happening
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