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Post by professorhoya on Dec 19, 2015 21:35:58 GMT -5
I'm not sold on the lack of intensity argument. I think our guys are generally playing hard. Our defense has a lot of problems: 1) we overhelp continually -- which ends up leading to wide open 3s. This is especially catastrophic against smaller teams that depend on the 3 2) our 2 big men are clearly sub-par defenders -- and thus, completely unable to make up for mistakes made by our perimeter defenders 3) we have a few really poor perimeter defenders. This includes LJ until he learns to adjust to the new rules (which are painful to watch) Right now I would say Kaleb, Derrickson, and Copeland are (+/neutral) defenders. Wish I had a solution. We know in the past that JT3 has put together some pretty good defenses, so I'm hoping that some of the issues are due to how young we are, and how many combinations of guys are playing. Hopefully White can help add length / solidify our porous 2-3 zone once he gets back in full swing. But even more troubling than our D -- who is providing our leadership on the floor? -- Honestly the rules changes have made it impossible to play good d. First it was the rule changes with the bigs and now to the wing payers like LJ. You basically have to outscore your opponent. That's the way the NCAA wants it with all these absurd changes.
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Post by professorhoya on Dec 19, 2015 21:49:37 GMT -5
It is really painful to watch this defense. They give up good shots on almost every possession. Unfortunately, there may not be any real answers here. Maybe kaleb and white getting more time would help. But unless we start playing small (someone other than Hayes/Govan at center) and switching everything, the D is likely to remain a mess. this team has a lot of defensive issues, but Hayes and Govan are really poor defenders on all levels right now - and that is not likely to change quickly. their inability to hedge screens or defend the rim serves as the starting point for the complete breakdown of many defensive possessions. With time and experience, maybe Govan will learn how to play competent D - he has some physical tools. But he has a long, long way to go. I am really not looking forward to seeing what the offenses of Nova, Xavier and butler do to our defense in conference play. triple digits are definitely in play if something does not change quickly. I wouldn't mind Zo. Hayes has improved but is limited athletically and can't block shots. And on the switches he can't get out to guard 3pt shooters quick Enoch so they get wide open shots or he gets blown by. In zone he has trouble because he's not a shot blocker. Akoy would have been really useful either as center or in tandem with Hayes as a rim protector.
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chep3
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Post by chep3 on Dec 19, 2015 22:17:07 GMT -5
Are we sure that JTIII knows how to coach a good defense post rule changes? I don't have a kenpom subscription or anything, but I'd be curious to see what our drating has been over the past few years. We foul badly, we allow tons of dribble penetration, we don't protect the rim, and we can't play zone. Maybe he just doesn't know how to coach a defense when we can't be super physical with ballhandlers on the perimeter. What gives anyone confidence that any of these defensive issues can be fixed?
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Post by professorhoya on Dec 19, 2015 22:24:18 GMT -5
Are we sure that JTIII knows how to coach a good defense post rule changes? I don't have a kenpom subscription or anything, but I'd be curious to see what our drating has been over the past few years. We foul badly, we allow tons of dribble penetration, we don't protect the rim, and we can't play zone. Maybe he just doesn't know how to coach a defense when we can't be super physical with ballhandlers on the perimeter. What gives anyone confidence that any of these defensive issues can be fixed? It's a problem everyone is having. Especially with this years rule change where you can no longer even guard the perimeter. You basically just have to have personal that can out score the opponents personal. Even the refs still seemed to be confused on how to call these new rules changes.
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gujake
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Post by gujake on Dec 19, 2015 22:34:16 GMT -5
Honestly the rules changes have made it impossible to play good d. First it was the rule changes with the bigs and now to the wing payers like LJ. You basically have to outscore your opponent. That's the way the NCAA wants it with all these absurd changes. The rule changes are the same for every team. If you don't like the rules, fine. That doesn't mean you should give up on defense. There are 125 teams that have figured it out better than we have according to KenPom numbers.
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gujake
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Post by gujake on Dec 19, 2015 22:42:52 GMT -5
Are we sure that JTIII knows how to coach a good defense post rule changes? I don't have a kenpom subscription or anything, but I'd be curious to see what our drating has been over the past few years. We foul badly, we allow tons of dribble penetration, we don't protect the rim, and we can't play zone. Maybe he just doesn't know how to coach a defense when we can't be super physical with ballhandlers on the perimeter. What gives anyone confidence that any of these defensive issues can be fixed? It's probably my biggest criticism of III. I don't think he understands how big of a problem the fouling is particularly. Before 2014, III's teams ranged between 23rd to 175th in defensive free throw rate. Usually middle of the pack or slightly better. 2014: 331st 2015: 305th 2016 so far: 300th I would say it's starting to be hard to attribute that only to personnel.
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Post by aleutianhoya on Dec 19, 2015 23:28:01 GMT -5
I just went through the self-flagellation of watching on tape after knowing the result. I agree the offense isn't the primary issue (though it sure would help if DSR and others would knock down some Js, many of which were wide open).
But I think the way we look on offense is instructive regarding the D. We have no flow on O despite scoring a good number. And we have no flow on D. So we are consistent there. Maybe SF is right and there is something else afoot that causes both.
But setting that aside, I do think a passive (or active) press would help, not because it would necessarily be effective in and of itself but because it would shorten possessions.
I don't think playing multiple half court defenses is a good idea for this team right now. Where we struggle is in our rotational responsibilities. And that becomes even harder when there are four or five different ones to learn. I think this group may have to commit to a 2-3 look. It minimizes the decision-making on rotations and also should take away the dribble penetration. Probably hurts our rebounding, but how much worse can that get? I know the zone hasn't looked good this year, bit maybe if you just commit to it you can spend more time.
I also think III needs to play the guys playing the best D. Get Kaleb more time. Try going small to see if it helps with team quickness.
Fknally, i know people don't like to hear it, but there's also some old fashioned bad luck on the opposing three point percentages.
We aren't THIS bad. You're never as bad as you seem at your worst. And we know we can play better because we saw it this year. But at the same time, we are what our record says we are. And we have done exactly the opposite of what we have done most years: dug a big hole in our out of conference.
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Post by professorhoya on Dec 19, 2015 23:34:28 GMT -5
Are we sure that JTIII knows how to coach a good defense post rule changes? I don't have a kenpom subscription or anything, but I'd be curious to see what our drating has been over the past few years. We foul badly, we allow tons of dribble penetration, we don't protect the rim, and we can't play zone. Maybe he just doesn't know how to coach a defense when we can't be super physical with ballhandlers on the perimeter. What gives anyone confidence that any of these defensive issues can be fixed? It's probably my biggest criticism of III. I don't think he understands how big of a problem the fouling is particularly. Before 2014, III's teams ranged between 23rd to 175th in defensive free throw rate. Usually middle of the pack or slightly better. 2014: 331st 2015: 305th 2016 so far: 300th I would say it's starting to be hard to attribute that only to personnel. Well you recruit based on what the rules are at the time plus your system (defensive style, Princeton etc). So the big rules changes effected 2014 and 2016 which means you are still stuck with players that were recruited before these rules change dates.
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Post by professorhoya on Dec 19, 2015 23:36:46 GMT -5
I just went through the self-flagellation of watching on tape after knowing the result. I agree the offense isn't the primary issue (though it sure would help if DSR and others would knock down some Js, many of which were wide open). But I think the way we look on offense is instructive regarding the D. We have no flow on O despite scoring a good number. And we have no flow on D. So we are consistent there. Maybe SF is right and there is something else afoot that causes both. But setting that aside, I do think a passive (or active) press would help, not because it would necessarily be effective in and of itself but because it would shorten possessions. I don't think playing multiple half court defenses is a good idea for this team right now. Where we struggle is in our rotational responsibilities. And that becomes even harder when there are four or five different ones to learn. I think this group may have to commit to a 2-3 look. It minimizes the decision-making on rotations and also should take away the dribble penetration. Probably hurts our rebounding, but how much worse can that get? I know the zone hasn't looked good this year, bit maybe if you just commit to it you can spend more time. I also think III needs to play the guys playing the best D. Get Kaleb more time. Try going small to see if it helps with team quickness. Fknally, i know people don't like to hear it, but there's also some old fashioned bad luck on the opposing three point percentages. We aren't THIS bad. You're never as bad as you seem at your worst. And we know we can play better because we saw it this year. But at the same time, we are what our record says we are. And we have done exactly the opposite of what we have done most years: dug a big hole in our out of conference. We have been pressing. Full court is kind of hard because we don't have rim protectors which is kind of key to run a full court press. (That way even if you beat the press you still have to deal with the rim protector)
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Post by aleutianhoya on Dec 19, 2015 23:46:34 GMT -5
I just went through the self-flagellation of watching on tape after knowing the result. I agree the offense isn't the primary issue (though it sure would help if DSR and others would knock down some Js, many of which were wide open). But I think the way we look on offense is instructive regarding the D. We have no flow on O despite scoring a good number. And we have no flow on D. So we are consistent there. Maybe SF is right and there is something else afoot that causes both. But setting that aside, I do think a passive (or active) press would help, not because it would necessarily be effective in and of itself but because it would shorten possessions. I don't think playing multiple half court defenses is a good idea for this team right now. Where we struggle is in our rotational responsibilities. And that becomes even harder when there are four or five different ones to learn. I think this group may have to commit to a 2-3 look. It minimizes the decision-making on rotations and also should take away the dribble penetration. Probably hurts our rebounding, but how much worse can that get? I know the zone hasn't looked good this year, bit maybe if you just commit to it you can spend more time. I also think III needs to play the guys playing the best D. Get Kaleb more time. Try going small to see if it helps with team quickness. Fknally, i know people don't like to hear it, but there's also some old fashioned bad luck on the opposing three point percentages. We aren't THIS bad. You're never as bad as you seem at your worst. And we know we can play better because we saw it this year. But at the same time, we are what our record says we are. And we have done exactly the opposite of what we have done most years: dug a big hole in our out of conference. We have been pressing. Full court is kind of hard because we don't have rim protectors which is kind of key to run a full court press. (That way even if you beat the press you still have to deal with the rim protector) I don't disagree. But its less of an issue with the 1-2-2 passive one we run. If we can use that as a default and occasionally trap harder out of it, maybe we get an occasional surprise turnover when we trap hard and at least we only defend in the half court for 20 seconds when we don't trap hard. It's not a perfect plan, I admit.
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Post by professorhoya on Dec 19, 2015 23:55:15 GMT -5
Also part of it is opponents have data on us now and realize our defense (especially rim protection) is non existent. So you can basically just drive into the lane (with the new rules) and get a layup or a short jumper.
And they now scout out for Hayes and Cameron and know what their strengths and weaknesses are. Like Hayes isn't a good free throw shooter so foul him. And he's not a good defender so get a switch to expose him or drive into him. Hayes defense is really bad which is probably why he didn't play the last couple years. He has to be a huge plus factor on offense to offset that.
The other problems is rebounding. We can't hold onto the ball except for DSR and Kaleb even when it comes right to us.
Copeland is great at corner 3s but that takes away one of our bigs from being down low to get offensive boards. So it can present a problem as well.
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Post by hoyasaxa2003 on Dec 20, 2015 0:14:17 GMT -5
Peak is fouling at a significantly higher rate than last year. It's really baffling since there's no logical reason for it. The problem with not starting him is that if he still fouls he's more likely to be in the bonus or double bonus and he's not shooting FTs particularly well.
I definitely think Kaleb Johnson needs more playing time.
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Post by professorhoya on Dec 20, 2015 0:21:16 GMT -5
Peak is fouling at a significantly higher rate than last year. It's really baffling since there's no logical reason for it. The problem with not starting him is that if he still fouls he's more likely to be in the bonus or double bonus and he's not shooting FTs particularly well. I definitely think Kaleb Johnson needs more playing time. It's not baffling at all. With the new rules it's impossible to play good defense. You are actually better off playing no defense at all since you won't foul. Peak was picked as an elite defender by Sean miller for the u19 world championships. He dominated defensively at the worlds under fiba rules. I don't even remember him fouling out last year as a freshman and he's already fouled out 3 times and been in foul trouble almost every game.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Dec 20, 2015 5:33:21 GMT -5
Honestly point 3 is applies to every player. They just don't have it. on switching defenses they played multiple zones along with a couple of varieties of matchups zones over the last 2 games It worked for about 3 possesions against Monomouth You will never rebound effectively when you have 1 or 2 players continually rotating to stop penetration. I'm still waiting until Mid January before I make any serious comments on this team but what disturbs me is the total regression of the soph class which was expected to carry them. Very true but LJ's foul trouble is more of a big deal than others because we're so thin at guard and Tre has given us very little. All of these concepts are basically b-ball 101 I mean bigs from MS up are taught to stay on their feet until the offensive player commits but still... 3 like a lot of coaches switches when he feels like a team starting to have too much success. He'll play one way until a team figures it out has a good stretch and then he'll switch. I would like to see more switching at random times just to give them another look for a couple possessions to keep them off balance, especially early in games. IDK maybe it keeps the guys more engaged and gets the other team thinking a little instead of playing.
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calhoya
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Post by calhoya on Dec 20, 2015 8:28:30 GMT -5
Peak is fouling at a significantly higher rate than last year. It's really baffling since there's no logical reason for it. The problem with not starting him is that if he still fouls he's more likely to be in the bonus or double bonus and he's not shooting FTs particularly well. I definitely think Kaleb Johnson needs more playing time. It's not baffling at all. With the new rules it's impossible to play good defense. You are actually better off playing no defense at all since you won't foul. Peak was picked as an elite defender by Sean miller for the u19 world championships. He dominated defensively at the worlds under fiba rules. I don't even remember him fouling out last year as a freshman and he's already fouled out 3 times and been in foul trouble almost every game. Agree it's the rules. A good friend with only West-coast basketball ties and no loyalty to the Hoyas commented yesterday that Peak is actually better-suited to the NBA game now than college in terms of his defense. Offense and decisions with the ball are a different story. FWIW my friend also took some time to defend JT III yesterday by reinforcing the notion that the real problem for the Hoyas is that the team does not have the players to play either zone or man effectively. The bigs are not handling penetration and the perimeter players are not reacting quickly enough to ball movement and high screens. His solution is use the depth and apply full court pressure. Let the players get tired and cycle them out. The offensive contributions of DSR and Copeland are not so consistent that they need to play nearly 34 minutes/game.
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Eurostar
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Post by Eurostar on Dec 20, 2015 9:58:16 GMT -5
FWIW my friend also took some time to defend JT III yesterday by reinforcing the notion that the real problem for the Hoyas is that the team does not have the players to play either zone or man effectively. The bigs are not handling penetration and the perimeter players are not reacting quickly enough to ball movement and high screens. His solution is use the depth and apply full court pressure. Let the players get tired and cycle them out. The offensive contributions of DSR and Copeland are not so consistent that they need to play nearly 34 minutes/game. Agree with this and was about to post the same. For all of the offensive flaws of Hopkins, he ended up being an excellent defender and rim protector. He would bail us out when the guards let their man get by. Govan and Hayes will step up to challenge the driver, but then are not quick enough to react when the driver dumps it off to Hayes/Govan's man. And our perimeter defense has not improved. We still over help and over switch on the perimeter and don't react quickly enough to ball movement and high screens. Not sure how to improve this besides quickness and lateral movement drills. I wonder if we focus too much on learning the mechanics of the offense in practice, leaving less time to train players to be more athletic.
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lurkerhoya
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Post by lurkerhoya on Dec 20, 2015 10:22:31 GMT -5
1. Teams take on the character of their coaches, and this isn't whining, etc. about the staff, but the simple acknowledgment that JT3's reverance as "cool", "even-keeled" and "level-headed" at this point can just as easily be described as aloof and uninspired. We can debate the merits of having a PEJr, a Bowen, or a Trawick and what they contribute, but there isn't really a question in my mind that having a regular contributor who breaks JT3's mold has been a valued asset of this team through the years.
In short, there is no identity and JT3 has failed to give them one. Some see JT3's demeanor as a positive, but I think it's clear he is being tuned out. It doesn't make you a demon to show emotion and rip your team a new one, every great coach past and present has some video clip of them losing it on a player or team on national television.
Georgetown, the 1984 national champs, 4 time Final Four participants, the Beasts of The East, trademarker of Hoya Paranoia, does not drop 3 games at home to Radford, Monmouth and UNC-Asheville, and nearly drop a 4th game to UNC Wilmington without someone or everyone getting benched, yelled at, or flat out left off the bus.
So.... first there needs to be a change of mindset and that starts at the top.
2. There needs to be less of an emphasis on platitudes in this program, and more of an emphasis on actually carrying them out. The yearly promise of a deep rotation, looking forward to using our athleticism more, and skinning the cat in new and interesting ways invariably leads to the exact same thing. Some creative play against man-to-man defense over the course of a slowed down 35 seconds, and a general inability to beat a zone which practically every team utilizes at some point against us.
Now with the rule changes, we get the same drivel about playing to the new rules, etc. and what do we actually get? A team that runs it's offense equally as ineffectively albeit with 5 less seconds to do it, and a team that defensively has proven itself incapable of fundamentals.
So.... second there needs to be a fundamental change in tactics. Every coach and program we are fond of comparing ourselves to, and who we arguably recruit against, have adapted. Coach K, Pitino, Calipari, the list goes on, they don't run the same garbage every year. Principles may stay the same, but talent, personnel, and sheer necessity lead to different wrinkles, changes in tactic, and ultimately overall effectiveness. Even Magoo tries something new every now and then when he's not suspended for flagrant violations of NCAA rules....
We literally have guards bigger than forwards on practically every team here we've lost to and yet, there's no regular press in our rotation or strategy. We have a guy like Trey, and rather than use him like a change of pace running back, we plod up and down instead of using him in spurts as a way of pressing the pace and finding transition baskets that put the Monmouths and Radfords in 16 point holes by the 12 minute timeout.
WHY? Because we never have, we only verbally masturbate about what these teams could do while JT3 feeds the drivel that it's coming.
I put none of this lapse on the players. I have said time and again, as a 19-year old you are either put in a position to succeed or not. Adapting a style of play that was built around unathletic players as a means of keeping them competitive and ignoring the fact that the actual personnel is capable of running a far more athletically based offense in terms of speed, pace and penetration is just asinine at this point.
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Post by paulf on Dec 20, 2015 10:48:00 GMT -5
Aaron and Jabril were big loses defensively: better match against small ball, raised intensity, got other teams off their game. Ne recruit JM sounds like he may be in his mold but its clear backcourt recruiting is a problem.
Short term: Bring in short term advisor on defense: view tapes, attend some practices, attend some games, maybe some focused hands on. My wish would be Hubie Brown. Be more directive on offense at certain points in the contest: too many bad late in the shot clock situations. If going low to the bigs is going well then make that a primary option at critical points (had a couple of cases like this against UNCA). Implement some easy To Do's to help energy: on telecast RT noted sprinting instead of jogging back on offense. I think bigs running and doing initial front of the rim post up to look for possible early passes is another. Get feedback on "how to beat GT" from reputable players/coaches: require specific actions versus generalities. Actions like "on high pick and rolls involving bigs the weak side hedger needs to XXXXX". Short term actions can be identified to address root causes. The implementation has to be focused because doing too many adjustments given we are well into the season could make things worse. Figure out how to address small ball opponents: develop a philosophy. If it's bully ball then fine. If its go small and press then fine. I think getting Mourning into more game situations is going to be important to evaluate if he can improve options. Consider moving White into the starting lineup: he seems to do a better job of getting the ball to the bigs and the offensive flow seems better when he plays. Also like offensive punch that Marcus and Reggie can provide off the bench.
Med to long term: Hire assistant with strong defensive credentials: need to shape this in concert with recruiting. Interview orgs about implementing change and develop/implement action plan: Top organizations reinvent themselves to address new realities. JTIII and GT administrators should not have any problems meeting with Pacers, Spurs, Warriors, or other sports groups but could meet with non sports groups too. Figure out an integrated plan to address the future. My initial thoughts are the program has a good base from which changes can be made and we aren't in a free fall "throw everyone out and nothing works" situation.
I think we will right things and make NCAA postseason.
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Post by aleutianhoya on Dec 20, 2015 10:51:40 GMT -5
1. Teams take on the character of their coaches, and this isn't whining, etc. about the staff, but the simple acknowledgment that JT3's reverance as "cool", "even-keeled" and "level-headed" at this point can just as easily be described as aloof and uninspired. We can debate the merits of having a PEJr, a Bowen, or a Trawick and what they contribute, but there isn't really a question in my mind that having a regular contributor who breaks JT3's mold has been a valued asset of this team through the years. In short, there is no identity and JT3 has failed to give them one. Some see JT3's demeanor as a positive, but I think it's clear he is being tuned out. It doesn't make you a demon to show emotion and rip your team a new one, every great coach past and present has some video clip of them losing it on a player or team on national television. Georgetown, the 1984 national champs, 4 time Final Four participants, the Beasts of The East, trademarker of Hoya Paranoia, does not drop 3 games at home to Radford, Monmouth and UNC-Asheville, and nearly drop a 4th game to UNC Wilmington without someone or everyone getting benched, yelled at, or flat out left off the bus. So.... first there needs to be a change of mindset and that starts at the top. 2. There needs to be less of an emphasis on platitudes in this program, and more of an emphasis on actually carrying them out. The yearly promise of a deep rotation, looking forward to using our athleticism more, and skinning the cat in new and interesting ways invariably leads to the exact same thing. Some creative play against man-to-man defense over the course of a slowed down 35 seconds, and a general inability to beat a zone which practically every team utilizes at some point against us. Now with the rule changes, we get the same drivel about playing to the new rules, etc. and what do we actually get? A team that runs it's offense equally as ineffectively albeit with 5 less seconds to do it, and a team that defensively has proven itself incapable of fundamentals. So.... second there needs to be a fundamental change in tactics. Every coach and program we are fond of comparing ourselves to, and who we arguably recruit against, have adapted. Coach K, Pitino, Calipari, the list goes on, they don't run the same garbage every year. Principles may stay the same, but talent, personnel, and sheer necessity lead to different wrinkles, changes in tactic, and ultimately overall effectiveness. Even Magoo tries something new every now and then when he's not suspended for flagrant violations of NCAA rules.... We literally have guards bigger than forwards on practically every team here we've lost to and yet, there's no regular press in our rotation or strategy. We have a guy like Trey, and rather than use him like a change of pace running back, we plod up and down instead of using him in spurts as a way of pressing the pace and finding transition baskets that put the Monmouths and Radfords in 16 point holes by the 12 minute timeout. WHY? Because we never have, we only verbally masturbate about what these teams could do while JT3 feeds the drivel that it's coming. I put none of this lapse on the players. I have said time and again, as a 19-year old you are either put in a position to succeed or not. Adapting a style of play that was built around unathletic players as a means of keeping them competitive and ignoring the fact that the actual personnel is capable of running a far more athletically based offense in terms of speed, pace and penetration is just asinine at this point. It would be great to do more on offense. But that simply isn't the primary problem. You are fitting a square peg in a round hole.
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SirSaxa
Blue & Gray (over 10,000 posts)
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Post by SirSaxa on Dec 20, 2015 10:57:10 GMT -5
Short term: Bring in short term advisor on defense: view tapes, attend some practices, attend some games, maybe some focused hands on. My wish would be Hubie Brown. Not a bad idea, but we don't need Hubie Brown. We already have one of the all time greatest college basketball defensive coaches attending every game and sitting in on almost every practice. Maybe tell him he is now unretired and needs to start earning those big bucks GU is still paying him. And.. let him scare the dickens out of the current team. There is no way these players would look so lame on D if they were playing for Pops. Besides, the JTs could work a little "good cop bad cop" on these kids and get far more productivity - at BOTH ends of the court. OK... I know. It would never happen. But it's fun to think about.
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