sead43
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Post by sead43 on Nov 12, 2015 22:26:18 GMT -5
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kchoya
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Post by kchoya on Nov 13, 2015 0:08:21 GMT -5
When will the lack of perspective end?
“You have to watch your backs on campus. It’s not always safe.” He spoke of feeling uncomfortable on campus due to a climate of racial intolerance and ongoing micro-aggressions, and urged students to speak up about the injustice they witnessed.
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SaxaCD
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Post by SaxaCD on Nov 13, 2015 0:28:33 GMT -5
When will the lack of perspective end? “You have to watch your backs on campus. It’s not always safe.” He spoke of feeling uncomfortable on campus due to a climate of racial intolerance and ongoing micro-aggressions, and urged students to speak up about the injustice they witnessed. Guns don't kill people. Microaggressions do.
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Cambridge
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Post by Cambridge on Nov 13, 2015 10:42:33 GMT -5
Seems pretty reasonable to ask that a hall that I didn't even know existed be renamed due to its problematic association - especially one that is being renovated for student use. Does anyone have any stake in maintaining the name as is? If not, why not make the change?
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thebin
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Post by thebin on Nov 13, 2015 11:15:01 GMT -5
One reason not to change it is not to give in to "demands" by students who are imagining offenses and threats that do not exist (a thousand miles away) in a tantrum of narcissistic rage. Ohhh! Are they throwing a self-aggrandizing fit? I want in too!
I've yet to hear a single intelligible argument for what the Mizzou president did or did not do. From what I can tell some townies yelled an N bomb at someone and I guess the school president failed to apologize on their behalf with the commensurate level of shame and begging of forgiveness. What's going on at Yale seems like nothing so much as an old West lynch mob. I'm also waiting for the Mizzou communications "professor" to be brought up on charges for assaulting the student journalist.
I don't caucus with the right on much anymore, but the climate of imagined oppression and the lack of understanding of what free speech is on the best college campuses shows how absurdly coddled and unready for the world college kids are now. Don't validate this manufactured outrage by giving into what they are explicitly calling demands.
Seems to me the name should be changed at some point but not if it means giving into a demand that is the result of faux rage. No more oxygen for this nonsense.
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Cambridge
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Post by Cambridge on Nov 13, 2015 11:24:52 GMT -5
One reason not to change it is not to give in to "demands" by students who are imagining offenses and threats that do not exist (a thousand miles away) in a tantrum of narcissistic rage. Ohhh! Are they throwing a self-aggrandizing fit? I want in too! I've yet to hear a single intelligible argument for what the Mizzou president did or did not do. From what I can tell some townies yelled an N bomb at someone and I guess the school president failed to apologize on their behalf with the commensurate level of shame and begging of forgiveness. What's going on at Yale seems like nothing so much as an old West lynch mob. I'm also waiting for the Mizzou communications "professor" to be brought up on charges for assaulting the student journalist. I don't caucus with the right on much anymore, but the climate of imagined oppression and the lack of understanding of what free speech is on the best college campuses shows how absurdly coddled and unready for the world college kids are now. Don't validate this manufactured outrage by giving into what they are explicitly calling demands. So you have no reason to not rename the hall other than "not to give in to the demands by students." That seems just as childish as the behavior you are criticizing. If a request is reasonable, why not consider it, rather than be reactionary based on what is happening in Missouri. Aren't we better than that?
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blueeagle
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Post by blueeagle on Nov 13, 2015 11:27:53 GMT -5
In principle, I agree with having a civil discussion for the name change. But this solidarity rally and sit in seems to me to be a disproportionate and reactionary manner of doing so.
There may be some instances when a radical response or "militancy" is necessary to achieve tangible results. Though history has shown us that peaceful protest has been a much more effective approach.
To the protesters in Mizzou, Yale, and Georgetown, just remember Newton's 3rd law. Do not be shocked if an equally vigorous retaliatory gesture from the opposing side may be coming your way. Not an excuse, just a logical observation.
The means does not justify the ends. Civil discourse may be the difference with having a moment versus building a movement.
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Cambridge
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Post by Cambridge on Nov 13, 2015 11:32:47 GMT -5
Though history has shown us that peaceful protest has been a much more effective approach. Am I missing something? Based on the coverage here and on the internet, it appears to be a sit in at Georgetown. I'm not sure how you get more peaceful than that form of protest. Maybe I'm wrong and there has been some violence. I haven't seen it reported.
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quickplay
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Post by quickplay on Nov 13, 2015 11:34:52 GMT -5
In principle, I agree with having a civil discussion for the name change. But this solidarity rally and sit in seems to me to be a disproportionate and reactionary manner of doing so. There may be some instances when a radical response or "militancy" is necessary to achieve tangible results. Though history has shown us that peaceful protest has been a much more effective approach. To the protesters in Mizzou, Yale, and Georgetown, just remember Newton's 3rd law. Do not be shocked if an equally vigorous retaliatory gesture from the opposing side may be coming your way. Not an excuse, just a logical observation. The means does not justify the ends. Civil discourse may be the difference with having a moment versus building a movement. What exactly are you going on about? This wasn't a peaceful protest? What 'equally vigorous retaliatory gestures' are you anticipating? What is the 'opposing side' of renaming a building so that it's not named after a guy who literally sold human beings to pay university expenses? I love the hand-wringing over this, it's pathetic.
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thebin
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Post by thebin on Nov 13, 2015 11:35:42 GMT -5
One reason not to change it is not to give in to "demands" by students who are imagining offenses and threats that do not exist (a thousand miles away) in a tantrum of narcissistic rage. Ohhh! Are they throwing a self-aggrandizing fit? I want in too! I've yet to hear a single intelligible argument for what the Mizzou president did or did not do. From what I can tell some townies yelled an N bomb at someone and I guess the school president failed to apologize on their behalf with the commensurate level of shame and begging of forgiveness. What's going on at Yale seems like nothing so much as an old West lynch mob. I'm also waiting for the Mizzou communications "professor" to be brought up on charges for assaulting the student journalist. I don't caucus with the right on much anymore, but the climate of imagined oppression and the lack of understanding of what free speech is on the best college campuses shows how absurdly coddled and unready for the world college kids are now. Don't validate this manufactured outrage by giving into what they are explicitly calling demands. So you have no reason to not rename the hall other than "not to give in to the demands by students." That seems just as childish as the behavior you are criticizing. If a request is reasonable, why not consider it, rather than be reactionary based on what is happening in Missouri. Aren't we better than that? I don't think it is childish at all. Students need to learn that they don't get to demand things when their extraordinarily sensitive sensibilities get rattled....on someone else's behalf where nothing happened there either. Giving in to what THEY call demands for a non-issue on another campus validates their absurd idea that when they are offended they call the shots sans civil discussion. Starve this beast before it destroys the entire concept of free speech or rigorous discourse on a goddamn college campus of all places. All of these protests may lack violence but if you look at words they are most certainly not discussions. They don't expect anything but getting their demands met and their manufactured rage to be validated. You don't see the danger in indulging that?
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quickplay
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Post by quickplay on Nov 13, 2015 11:40:57 GMT -5
I do see the danger in dismissing reality in favor of a completely abstract interpretation of the situation.
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Cambridge
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Post by Cambridge on Nov 13, 2015 11:43:37 GMT -5
I don't think it is childish at all. Students need to learn that they don't get to demand things when their extraordinarily sensitive sensibilities get rattled....on someone else's behalf where nothing happened there either. Giving in to what THEY call demands for a non-issue on another campus validates their absurd idea that when they are offended they call the shots sans civil discussion. Starve this beast before it destroys the entire concept of free speech or rigorous discourse on a goddamn college campus of all places. Why don't students get to demand things from an institution that they are part of? Why shouldn't they seek to shape the present and future of that institution? Why do you feel such confidence in qualifying their concerns as a "non-issue"? Seems like if you shut down their concerns as illegitimate from the get go without discussion you risk being no better than what you are criticizing. I mean on some level the tone of your reaction -- which parallels that of many out in the media -- only provides some credence to the students' perspective.
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CTHoya08
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Post by CTHoya08 on Nov 13, 2015 11:47:28 GMT -5
I don't have any objection to changing the name of the building, but was there any talk of this before the Missouri and Yale stuff hit the news? If not, it's hard not to see this as a copycat attention grab, i.e., "Let's find something with a racist tie-in on campus so we can get on the news and feel important too!"
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Cambridge
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Post by Cambridge on Nov 13, 2015 11:49:28 GMT -5
I don't have any objection to changing the name of the building, but was there any talk of this before the Missouri and Yale stuff hit the news? If not, it's hard not to see this as a copycat attention grab, i.e., "Let's find something with a racist tie-in on campus so we can get on the news and feel important too!" So rather than concede to a demand that you admittedly have no strong feelings about -- and potentially diffuse the situation -- you would suggest stonewalling the students because of your perception that they are doing it for the "wrong reasons"?
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Post by hilltopper2000 on Nov 13, 2015 11:51:12 GMT -5
I strongly believe that the name of the building should change. We shouldn't honor a member of our community who behaved so atrociously--even under the standards of that time, it was viewed as horrible by many. Slavery remains the original sin of our country and has been whitewashed by too many for too long. Nevertheless, I am completely at a loss as to why this protest is necessary. The University is clearly moving in this direction through the Committee set up by DeGioia. Is this really all about it "not moving fast enough"? Or, as I suspect, did all of those rallies at other campuses just look like a lot of fun? I am fine holding protests against racism, which continues to be a major problem in our society, but let's keep it at that, rather than trying to imagine problems or lend hyperbolism to problems already being addressed. Protests are fine and good, but Georgetown needs to ensure that they don't drown out the free speech of others. The Yale fiasco is deeply embarrassing for that institution, and I hope we see nothing of that sort at Georgetown.
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TC
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Post by TC on Nov 13, 2015 11:56:29 GMT -5
I don't have any objection to changing the name of the building, but was there any talk of this before the Missouri and Yale stuff hit the news? If not, it's hard not to see this as a copycat attention grab, i.e., "Let's find something with a racist tie-in on campus so we can get on the news and feel important too!" I've seen articles in The Hoya about it as early as last year : www.thehoya.com/georgetown-financed-by-slave-trading/Given the number of articles I've seen on it, I think it has been a campus conversation for at least a year or so.
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blueeagle
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Post by blueeagle on Nov 13, 2015 11:58:04 GMT -5
Whoa. I suppose we are still engaged in civil discourse.
I apologize as I admit to being a little imprecise in my language. My sentiments were more directed at the situations at Mizzou and Yale. I should have clarified that.
Though I still think that the Georgetown students are being reactionary with their recent actions. I believe that the hall name issue has been discussed previously, and so I did not see the urgency to hold a sit in at this moment. Yes, I do know the students are doing it in solidarity with Mizzou and Yale. But it comes off as derivative and not as imperative.
As to the "vigorous retaliatory gestures", I am referring to the senseless threats now being lobbied against the protesters in Mizzou (and now at Howard U) by obvious racist elements. Again, lex talionis is a principle that most people sadly embrace and accept. I myself do not.
Do you want to have a moment in time or do you want to have a movement that endures?
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kchoya
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Post by kchoya on Nov 13, 2015 11:59:14 GMT -5
One reason not to change it is not to give in to "demands" by students who are imagining offenses and threats that do not exist (a thousand miles away) in a tantrum of narcissistic rage. Ohhh! Are they throwing a self-aggrandizing fit? I want in too! I've yet to hear a single intelligible argument for what the Mizzou president did or did not do. From what I can tell some townies yelled an N bomb at someone and I guess the school president failed to apologize on their behalf with the commensurate level of shame and begging of forgiveness. What's going on at Yale seems like nothing so much as an old West lynch mob. I'm also waiting for the Mizzou communications "professor" to be brought up on charges for assaulting the student journalist. I don't caucus with the right on much anymore, but the climate of imagined oppression and the lack of understanding of what free speech is on the best college campuses shows how absurdly coddled and unready for the world college kids are now. Don't validate this manufactured outrage by giving into what they are explicitly calling demands. So you have no reason to not rename the hall other than "not to give in to the demands by students." That seems just as childish as the behavior you are criticizing. If a request is reasonable, why not consider it, rather than be reactionary based on what is happening in Missouri. Aren't we better than that? What's reason in favor of renaming the hall? No one is negatively impacted by the name. The University is not looked at in a negative light because of the name of the hall. The event referenced in the linked article was "hosted" by four seniors and one junior. SOMEHOW they managed to spend all that time on the Georgetown campus and survive, even though there was a Hall named after a Jesuit who died 150+ years. SOMEHOW they have managed to survive at a Catholic university when the Catholic Church didn’t even outlaw slavery from its missions until 1843. When you form a "Working Group on Slavery, Memory, and Reconciliation," then you're going to find slights, biases and racism where it doesn't exist. It why you see danger where there is none and you make statement like, "“You have to watch your backs on campus. It’s not always safe.” Again, tell me how any student is negatively impacted by the name?
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quickplay
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Post by quickplay on Nov 13, 2015 12:02:47 GMT -5
When the ultimate criticism of a student protest is that it feels 'derivative,' we've really moved into lame territory. The concern trolling on this is hilarious.
And KC, if it's silly to push for the name change because it doesn't matter, isn't it even sillier to try to prevent it?
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kchoya
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Post by kchoya on Nov 13, 2015 12:03:27 GMT -5
I strongly believe that the name of the building should change. We shouldn't honor a member of our community who behaved so atrociously--even under the standards of that time, it was viewed as horrible by many. Slavery remains the original sin of our country and has been whitewashed by too many for too long. Nevertheless, I am completely at a loss as to why this protest is necessary. The University is clearly moving in this direction through the Committee set up by DeGioia. Is this really all about it "not moving fast enough"? Or, as I suspect, did all of those rallies at other campuses just look like a lot of fun? I am fine holding protests against racism, which continues to be a major problem in our society, but let's keep it at that, rather than trying to imagine problems or lend hyperbolism to problems already being addressed. Protests are fine and good, but Georgetown needs to ensure that they don't drown out the free speech of others. The Yale fiasco is deeply embarrassing for that institution, and I hope we see nothing of that sort at Georgetown. Did you attend Georgetown? How was your experience on the Hilltop negatively impacted by the fact that one of the buildings was named after Thomas Mulledy, S.J.? Have you lived in (or visited) Washington, D.C.? How was your experience there negatively impacted by the fact that it is named after a slave owner?
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