DFW HOYA
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Post by DFW HOYA on Jul 14, 2016 8:12:08 GMT -5
Sounds like you have much deeper insight than the historians who have been working with the university on this - and who have direct access to the archival records. You should ring up Father Collins and offer your findings. Seriously. Either way, someone will leave the engagement profoundly educated. You don't need to be condescending to disagree and I offer no "findings", only what has been written on this issue long before this became a cause celebre. I'll be glad to speak offline on my interactions with those experts you cite. None of it changes the fact that once and future leaders of the university, acting in a role of even greater authority that included oversight of the university, acted on the demand to get rid of the slaves by selling them (rather than, say, shipping them off to the good brothers in Canada) and used the money to pay off university debts. This was an act that earned them widespread opprobrium from their Jesuit peers in their own day, and it more than merits continued reflection and commemoration. You may also want to check your sources on that one. Thomas Mulledy was put in clerical time-out as much for the fact that he didn't return all the proceeds to the Order as much as his inability "to safeguard sacramental and family bonds among the enslaved persons", as was cited in a review of the issue presented at Holy Cross earlier this year. It certainly didn't prevent Mulledy from being named the first president of Holy Cross in 1843, or return for another term as rector-president at Georgetown two years later.
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RusskyHoya
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Post by RusskyHoya on Jul 14, 2016 21:11:58 GMT -5
Nah, not serious condescension - I have that for truly important things, like Georgetown football More like light snark of the sort that seems appropriate when the peanut gallery suggests (a little condescendingly, perhaps?) that serious and committed scholars are actually just hopping on a bandwagon and don't have their facts straight. I mean, you're the Georgetown basketball historian, so I can't dismiss the possibility that you have some deeper insight that goes beyond having read Robert Emmett Curran's three volumes and had some conversations with him. But from where I'm sitting, it looks more like you're implying that everyone has their facts all wrong wrong wrong when really your objections are more about tone, or subjective interpretations of relative culpability, or guesses about motivations that are exceedingly difficult to definitively prove or disprove. I'm not seeing what the factual errors are. The original article in The Hoya has the same kinds of numbers, with about $17,000 of a total sale price over >$100,000 going to pay university debts. Similarly, both the opprobrium at the time and the fact that it was not universally or perpetually felt (least of all by complicit fellow Jesuits in Maryland and elsewhere) has been well documented, as in this WAMU piece:
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DFW HOYA
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Post by DFW HOYA on Jul 15, 2016 8:37:15 GMT -5
Let's try this again.
1. I'm not judging how any scholars view this issue. There are differences in what has been cited in articles over the years (including other Jesuits) and pointing this out is not some form of attack. And yes, there are contemporary issues outside of pure scholarship that are driving how Georgetown is positioning this, which I understand.
Enough said.
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eagle54
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Post by eagle54 on Jul 20, 2016 0:59:31 GMT -5
Nah, not serious condescension - I have that for truly important things, like Georgetown football More like light snark of the sort that seems appropriate when the peanut gallery suggests (a little condescendingly, perhaps?) that serious and committed scholars are actually just hopping on a bandwagon and don't have their facts straight. I mean, you're the Georgetown basketball historian, so I can't dismiss the possibility that you have some deeper insight that goes beyond having read Robert Emmett Curran's three volumes and had some conversations with him. But from where I'm sitting, it looks more like you're implying that everyone has their facts all wrong wrong wrong when really your objections are more about tone, or subjective interpretations of relative culpability, or guesses about motivations that are exceedingly difficult to definitively prove or disprove. I'm not seeing what the factual errors are. The original article in The Hoya has the same kinds of numbers, with about $17,000 of a total sale price over >$100,000 going to pay university debts. Similarly, both the opprobrium at the time and the fact that it was not universally or perpetually felt (least of all by complicit fellow Jesuits in Maryland and elsewhere) has been well documented, as in this WAMU piece: Rusky, you are sounding ridiculous on this one. We are arguing about the Jesuits and the University and who's to blame from hundreds of years ago. I feel like I'm talking to the people who are trying to understand the bible. The better place to spend our time is where is the University now in how it treats all races and religions and is it progressing the correct agenda as we move forward. From my impression of the University that's a resounding yes. To knock DFW for being a basketball and football follower of this University as a reason to not understand this issue is clearly undermining your own stance. I'm sad for you as I've viewed you as someone that has a sound platform.
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RusskyHoya
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Post by RusskyHoya on Aug 3, 2016 22:05:27 GMT -5
Rusky, you are sounding ridiculous on this one. We are arguing about the Jesuits and the University and who's to blame from hundreds of years ago. I feel like I'm talking to the people who are trying to understand the bible. The better place to spend our time is where is the University now in how it treats all races and religions and is it progressing the correct agenda as we move forward. From my impression of the University that's a resounding yes. To knock DFW for being a basketball and football follower of this University as a reason to not understand this issue is clearly undermining your own stance. I'm sad for you as I've viewed you as someone that has a sound platform. Not sure I follow. The football joke was to make the point that I don't take arguing on the internet seriously enough to actually summon the strong negative emotions required for true condescension, snark, etc. The point is to get enjoyment out of these interactions. Sometime like DFW, who has logged many message board miles himself, should know better than anyone that arguing with the likes of posters on AnyGivenSaturday is unlikely to bring about any change in the real world. As for basketball... he actually is a basketball historian! He wrote a book and everything! And JTIII blurbed it! So while my university connections are more recent, his are unquestionably longer and probably more varied. I legitimately cannot totally dismiss that he might have access to information that the rest of us don't, although it's much less likely that this information has escaped the committees studying the subject. More to the point, I honestly don't see a real dispute about facts here - just about motivations, mental state, presentism, the standards that we apply to those whom we choose to honor and memorialize, and other mostly subjective things. Those are all important disputes to have, but they require an acknowledgment of those grounds. Anyway, as other schools' legacies on this topic receive more attention and exploration, we'll be glad that the University took the aggressive stance that it has.
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DanMcQ
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Post by DanMcQ on Sept 1, 2016 7:50:43 GMT -5
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Elvado
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Post by Elvado on Sept 1, 2016 9:22:03 GMT -5
Proud day to be a Hoya. University President issues a statement that is thoughtful, conciliatory and free of recrimination. He struck exactly the right tone in setting things right going forward without putting the mark of Cain on those who went before and lived in different times.
He is a wonderful leader for alma mater.
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thebin
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Post by thebin on Sept 1, 2016 11:31:56 GMT -5
Proud day to be a Hoya. University President issues a statement that is thoughtful, conciliatory and free of recrimination. He struck exactly the right tone in setting things right going forward without putting the mark of Cain on those who went before and lived in different times. He is a wonderful leader for alma mater. Look out for locusts..... Agreed. All around. Alma Mater will miss DeGioia one day.
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EasyEd
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Post by EasyEd on Sept 1, 2016 13:19:23 GMT -5
To be my usual you know what - will a future step of atoning for our past include deleting the gray from the blue and gray? Or moving away from a city named for a slave holder? Or from a district named for he who eliminated native Americans? Or claiming the university follows the Jesuit tradition?
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TC
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Post by TC on Sept 1, 2016 15:09:40 GMT -5
Definitely all of the above and probably Satan worship in Dahlgren Chapel and Georgetown and Syracuse merging and living together as well.
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RusskyHoya
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Post by RusskyHoya on Sept 1, 2016 21:03:09 GMT -5
As noted before, I'm an outlier on this issue and I understand that. I won't be able to attend but perhaps could contact Rev. Collins further. You should! He's a great guy. 202-687-6058 - djc44@georgetown.edu - it's on Georgetown's website for all to see. To be my usual you know what - will a future step of atoning for our past include deleting the gray from the blue and gray? Or moving away from a city named for a slave holder? Or from a district named for he who eliminated native Americans? Or claiming the university follows the Jesuit tradition? Maybe, maybe not. Each successive generation judges the past for itself. Washington won the country's independence and rejected monarchy and autocracy - worthy accomplishments that have stood the test of time. Ditto Jefferson - we can and should acknowledge their deep failures of humanity while recognizing that, among creatures of their time and place, they did pretty well. Others, like Andrew Jackson, come off less well. The important thing is to keep asking questions and striving for better.
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DanMcQ
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Post by DanMcQ on Sept 2, 2016 5:24:10 GMT -5
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DanMcQ
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Post by DanMcQ on Sept 3, 2016 4:23:24 GMT -5
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Nevada Hoya
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Post by Nevada Hoya on Sept 6, 2016 18:24:22 GMT -5
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kchoya
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Post by kchoya on Sept 8, 2016 2:08:58 GMT -5
Someone needs some perspective: "when I learned about the event, and realized we hadn’t been part of the study and deliberations that led up to it, I felt like it was 1838 all over again."
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SSHoya
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Post by SSHoya on Sept 8, 2016 11:53:39 GMT -5
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DFW HOYA
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Post by DFW HOYA on Sept 8, 2016 12:04:43 GMT -5
Repeating for emphasis: Georgetown University neither owned nor sold these slaves. Lax reporting and ongoing public relations by GU contributes to this false narrative.
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Post by hilltopper2000 on Sept 8, 2016 12:11:18 GMT -5
I wish them luck in raising the money for a good cause. But as a donor to the university, I will lose my mind if any money that has been given by alumni and friends (or paid by students) goes for this. Frankly, it would be a massive violation of the fiduciary duties the President and Board owe to the institution.
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Elvado
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Post by Elvado on Sept 8, 2016 14:27:08 GMT -5
And now I no longer care...
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Jack
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Post by Jack on Apr 27, 2017 8:00:13 GMT -5
I had somehow missed this until a friend (who is not connected to GU in any way) brought it to my attention. NPR's Planet Money podcast did a thoughtful two-part episode on Georgetown and the descendants of slavery. Part I is emotionally affecting and does not always paint GU's current administration in the best light, but I hope everyone who cares about Georgetown will listen. Part II is less focused on Georgetown specifically and more broadly about the issue of financial reparations, but still worth listening if only to wrestle with the issues it raises. Although the university recently held a Mass for reconciliation that got some coverage in campus media, I have not seen any reporting on whether any of the descendants were offered admission this year. The podcast suggests that several applied and some may have been promising candidates. Of course you would never want to subject those students to unwanted publicity (or suggest they were not otherwise worthy of admission), but it would be a great story to be able to show some tangible benefit from this effort.
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