hoyainspirit
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Post by hoyainspirit on Jun 21, 2015 11:58:11 GMT -5
Oh, so you mean like most racist, cowardly POS's, he didn't have the balls to say anything openly racist in front of black people that might've knocked some sense into him that means the jury is still out despite the overwhelming tidal wave of evidence - including his own words - that this was a hate crime? Right. Believe what you want, I honestly couldn't care less. My days of trying to talk reasonably with white folks about race in this country are over. And the Algonquin Round Table loses a member. Seriously, you're done talking with white people? Sounds racist from here.... Nice attempt to deflect the discussion without addressing the points deacon made. Roof ain't crazy, he's just another racist.
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Elvado
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Post by Elvado on Jun 21, 2015 12:21:40 GMT -5
Deacon may be and probably is 100% correct about Roof. My overarching point is that what is the rush to characterize this horror as hate crime vs terrorism vs insanity?
Do the dead walk or the grieving find comfort in the characterization of what happened?
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EasyEd
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Post by EasyEd on Jun 21, 2015 12:23:11 GMT -5
I live in the Charleston area and I'd like to say the reactions of the locals, whatever the color or creed, have been much more Christian than the side-taking on this board.
Second comment: why do we always seem to go to great lengths to attribute the actions of one individual to that of the entire country, state, region or race?
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quickplay
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Post by quickplay on Jun 21, 2015 12:33:33 GMT -5
All he did was write a racist manifesto and say that he was trying to start a race war - Why the quick rush to judgment about his motivations?!?
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Elvado
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Post by Elvado on Jun 21, 2015 13:16:49 GMT -5
I am not arguing the current state of the evidence. Do you leave open the possibility that his writings and actions are the work of the insane?
Either way, the victims are dead and the families grieve.
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RusskyHoya
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Post by RusskyHoya on Jun 21, 2015 13:43:58 GMT -5
Deacon may be and probably is 100% correct about Roof. My overarching point is that what is the rush to characterize this horror as hate crime vs terrorism vs insanity? Do the dead walk or the grieving find comfort in the characterization of what happened? Characterization is important because to a great extent it frames and drives political and social responses. In the US, as in some other countries, we've collectively decided to place a huge emphasis on responding to and countering terrorism. We expend billions upon billions on dollars on it (including, at least in part, dollars that have paid my salary at different times), hold countless hearings and working sessions, and craft impactful legislation like the Homeland Security Act of 2002, the Patriot Act, and the USA Freedom Act. To the extent that many in the black community feel like violence against their kind has been historically either legally sanctioned (slavery), tacitly sanctioned (Jim Crow), or willfully ignored (police brutality), there is a hope that if an act such as this shooting is recognized as terrorism, we a country will be much more likely to actually address and counter it. By contrast, in the US, as in some other countries, we've collectively decided that mental illness is something to be stigmatized, not spoken about in polite company, and generally consigned to the margins of politics and society. It's also often used as an excuse to avoid dealing with underlying issues that may have led to an action or series of actions. "He was just crazy!" No need to look any further! No point in re-examining our policies, practices, history, etc. It's all just random madness, everyone go about your lives with your status quo comfortably undisturbed.
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Elvado
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Post by Elvado on Jun 21, 2015 14:29:23 GMT -5
Russky:
Those are all perfectly rational and well-reasoned points, all of which I accept.
I ask again, what is the rush? Is the USA any more or less racist if this one guy is mentally ill rather than a racist terrorist ( or some combination of both)?
The final analysis should be just that, final.
I think it takes more than 4 days. That is all I am saying.
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RusskyHoya
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Post by RusskyHoya on Jun 21, 2015 15:01:55 GMT -5
Russky: Those are all perfectly rational and well-reasoned points, all of which I accept. I ask again, what is the rush? Is the USA any more or less racist if this one guy is mentally ill rather than a racist terrorist ( or some combination of both)? The final analysis should be just that, final. I think it takes more than 4 days. That is all I am saying. The need for a comprehensive, final analysis does not foreclose preliminary and interim analysis. In fact, you can't have the former without the latter. In the meantime, suggesting that people shouldn't make or vocalize any judgments until months or years down the line comes across as trying to shut down the conversation - a conversation that, again, many black people have been trying to have and bring to the public forefront for a very long time. Not surprisingly, people also see a double-standard in that any hint of connection to Islam is often sufficient to have a suspect immediately be labeled a terrorist, yet here we have a young man who is literally writing out textbook treatises on committing political terrorism and suddenly there's a call to avoid rushing to judgment. That perceived double-standard leaves many feeling aggrieved, and understandably so. If it looks like a duck, acts like a duck, and quacks like a duck... it's kind of strange to have such a different response, depending on the color of the duck and whether he prays to the duck god or the rabbit god. The overall nature of racism in the USA is not significantly impacted by the mental state of one particular perpetrator. But American collective understanding of, and response to, racism in the USA is impacted by the ways in which we talk about it and the standards that we apply to behavior.
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quickplay
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Post by quickplay on Jun 21, 2015 16:32:55 GMT -5
If he was Muslim and said that he was killing Christians to start a religious war, there is zero chance we'd having the 'let's wait and see before making any judgments' argument. It's blatant.
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Elvado
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Post by Elvado on Jun 21, 2015 17:24:43 GMT -5
And yet we debated the motivations of the Fort Hood shooter who chanted "Allah Akbar"...
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Elvado
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Post by Elvado on Jun 21, 2015 17:26:11 GMT -5
My last comment in this thread: it was a hate crime.
I am sure that knowing that will comfort the families of the victims and prevent further hate crimes.
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Post by Problem of Dog on Jun 21, 2015 18:42:09 GMT -5
My last comment in this thread: it was a hate crime. I am sure that knowing that will comfort the families of the victims and prevent further hate crimes. And we're all glad you're done.
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SaxaCD
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Post by SaxaCD on Jun 21, 2015 21:05:10 GMT -5
My last comment in this thread: it was a hate crime. I am sure that knowing that will comfort the families of the victims and prevent further hate crimes. And we're all glad you're done. If everyone else would be, as well, all of us would be even gladder.
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This Just In
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Post by This Just In on Jun 21, 2015 23:13:02 GMT -5
A discussion that took place on the Sean Hannity Show as to what were factors that lead to the Dylann Roof shooting.
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kchoya
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Post by kchoya on Jun 22, 2015 0:23:00 GMT -5
A discussion that took place on the Sean Hannity Show as to what were factors that lead to the Dylann Roof shooting. You appear to watch more Fox News than anyone on this board.
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Post by rustyshackleford on Jun 22, 2015 13:59:29 GMT -5
Russky: Those are all perfectly rational and well-reasoned points, all of which I accept. I ask again, what is the rush? Is the USA any more or less racist if this one guy is mentally ill rather than a racist terrorist ( or some combination of both)? The final analysis should be just that, final. I think it takes more than 4 days. That is all I am saying. To advocate for an idealized unimpassioned analysis really only makes sense for the legal prosecution of the case. For a community and country which is grieving and angry over a violent attack which targeted an innocent minority, it makes sense to try to understand and address the causes of the crime in the interim. It's pretty obvious this was racism fueled terrorism - and should be investigated with the same force as if ISIS may have been involved - a Dylann Strorm Roof or Wade Michael Page is every bit as evil and had support systems that fueled this attack.
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kchoya
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Post by kchoya on Jun 22, 2015 14:32:40 GMT -5
Russky: Those are all perfectly rational and well-reasoned points, all of which I accept. I ask again, what is the rush? Is the USA any more or less racist if this one guy is mentally ill rather than a racist terrorist ( or some combination of both)? The final analysis should be just that, final. I think it takes more than 4 days. That is all I am saying. To advocate for an idealized unimpassioned analysis really only makes sense for the legal prosecution of the case. For a community and country which is grieving and angry over a violent attack which targeted an innocent minority, it makes sense to try to understand and address the causes of the crime in the interim. But not if speculation and misinformation runs rampant, which can stoke passion and feelings where there is no basis to do so. In this instance, that doesn't seem to be the case. Contrast that with Ferguson, where the DOJ and other investigations came down on the side of Officer Wilson.
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hoyainspirit
Platinum Hoya (over 5000 posts)
When life puts that voodoo on me, music is my gris-gris.
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Post by hoyainspirit on Jun 22, 2015 14:51:49 GMT -5
To advocate for an idealized unimpassioned analysis really only makes sense for the legal prosecution of the case. For a community and country which is grieving and angry over a violent attack which targeted an innocent minority, it makes sense to try to understand and address the causes of the crime in the interim. But not if speculation and misinformation runs rampant, which can stoke passion and feelings where there is no basis to do so. In this instance, that doesn't seem to be the case. Contrast that with Ferguson, where the DOJ and other investigations came down on the side of Officer Wilson. That kid is dead because Wilson escalated the situation far beyond what was necessary. He really had no reason to interact with those kids in the first place, other than to be an as$hole. To curse them while telling them to move to the sidewalk was totally unnecessary. Let's not pretend Wilson bears no responsibility for Brown's death. He shoulders most of the blame.
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Thomas
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Post by Thomas on Jun 22, 2015 16:05:59 GMT -5
Here's a video in which South Carolina Rep Todd Rutherford(who was referenced in the Sean Hannity video posted here) actually appears on the O'Reilly Factor as they somewhat "debate" the comments he made about Fox News influencing Dylann Roof. It's hilarious how T.Rutherford uses O'Reilly's "fair and balanced" tactics of interrupting, deflecting and asking loaded questions!! T.Rutherford wasn't going to allow O'Reilly to strong-arm or bully him like he does to most guests that he has a personal issue with.
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TC
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Post by TC on Jun 22, 2015 21:35:10 GMT -5
To advocate for an idealized unimpassioned analysis really only makes sense for the legal prosecution of the case. For a community and country which is grieving and angry over a violent attack which targeted an innocent minority, it makes sense to try to understand and address the causes of the crime in the interim. But not if speculation and misinformation runs rampant Like when Elvado was posting the internet lies about Officer Wilson's fictional "orbital blowout"?
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