Question for BE Historians

[originalbigeaster]

I know - looking at my handle, you would think I should know the answer to this question but I don't. Go way back in time to when DG sent the invitations out to a select group of schools asking them to join the BEC. I know Holy Cross got the invite before BC, but turned it down (would BC even be in the ACC today if HC had accepted?). I am told by a very BE savvy circa late 50's GU grad that Duquesne and St Bonaventure also were invited. If so, this is news to me. Can anyone confirm if this is true?

[Elvado]

I can not confirm Duquesne or St. Bonaventure but do vividly recall that St. Bonny was a staple of NBC's college hoops coverage in the 70's with the old ECAC game of the week. So it would not surprise me if they were at least considered.

[njhoya78]

I do not recall where I read the following, but reportedly St. Bonaventure was on the list of potential Big East schools; they were later told that they were then out of consideration because Dave Gavitt's college roommate was now an administrator at Syracuse, and they did not want two schools in upstate New York. I don't believe that the Bonnies ever received a formal invite.

I don't recall hearing that Duquesne was ever considered.

At that time, Holy Cross was a dominant basketball power in the east. When Georgetown played Holy Cross on campus at McDonough, it was a big event and extra bleachers would be installed behind the baseline to accommodate an overflow crowd. Those Crusaders had Ronnie Perry and Charlie Brown as stars. It's funny, looking back, to see how things turned out almost two generations later.

[sleepy]

I'll question that BC was not originally invited. 4 schhols that met to begin with GU Syracuse St Johns and Providence extended invitations to 5 additional schools Seton Hall, Rutgers, BC, Holy Cross and Uconn. To this day I am convinced that at least during the original discussions Uconn was not part of the original teams discussed or perhaps even offered except when some original funding that was required and a small consortium of Hartford insurance compnies was approached. I have asked a former BE AD, not FR multiple times over the years and have never recieved a straight answer but from between the line answers and non i beleive this to be true.

I agree with Elvado that The Bonnies may have been given consideration but Dusquense i would question.

[originalbigeaster]

I could very well be wrong on the HC getting an invitation before BC thing. Very similar to the "exclusive territory" condition that njhoya78 cites relative to upstate New York, so it was for the New England market and Holy Cross/Boston College. Seems odd that both would be offered an opportunity.

Would love to know if Duquesne was offered. Agree with sleepy, it just does not seem likely.

[DFW HOYA]

I don't know much about all these recruiting posts, but I think I can answer this one.

The idea was built on independent programs in each of the key media markets in the Northeast. The Big East lineage began with four founding schools and their athletic directors (it was not at the presidential level). This is discussed in Bill Reynolds' 1989 book on the origins of the conference.

1. Providence (Dave Gavitt)
2. Georgetown (Frank Rienzo)
3. Syracuse (Jake Crouthamel)
4. St. John's (Jack Kaiser)

Once these four were on board (St. John's being the most reluctant to give up independent status), the invites were as follows:

Holy Cross. HC was next on the list and there was some discussion if it was HC or BC vs. what would happen if both accepted. Reynolds' book suggested that while the original idea was only one for the greater Boston market, they would have likely taken both. Rev. John Brooks S.J. declined the offer outright, later proclaiming that his school "was not in the entertainment business." A few years later, he moved Holy Cross out of major college (I-A, now BCS) football, and the rest is history.

Boston College. Offered to and accepted by BC athletic director Bill Flynn.

Connecticut. Gavitt insisted that this was the sleeping giant, even if the other AD's weren't so sure about a Yankee Conference school with an undistinguished hoop tradition. But the others trusted Gavitt implicitly and extended the offer to John Toner, the UConn AD. (Because the UConn president wasn't available, Toner actually accepted the invite without formal approval, but the rest really is history.)

Rutgers. Declined the offer. RU was three years removed from its Final Four team and didn't feel giving up independent status was worth it.

Seton Hall. Not on the original list but was added once Rutgers declined.

Villanova was interested but had to give one year's notice to the Eastern 8 so they were not in the original group. However, this is the only school affiliated with the E-8 that was offered, according to Reynolds' book. None of the other E-8 schools (Duquesne, Penn State, West Virginia, GW, UMass, Pittsburgh, or Bona) were seriously considered after Rutgers passed on the offer; they already had six schools and weren't looking for 10 or 12.

Jake Crouthamel, now 76, wrote in 2001 about the process--it's slightly different but follows the same order. However, there were no offers actually extended to UMass or BU and he mislabeled the Eastern 8.

"In the Spring of 1978, only a few months after my arrival in Syracuse, Dave Gavitt, Jack Kaiser and Frank Rienzo, Athletics Directors at Providence, St. Johns and Georgetown respectively, gathered to discuss newly imposed NCAA men's basketball in-season scheduling requirements. These requirements forced independent institutions like the four of us to align and schedule schools with whom we had no interest or tradition. Self determination was far better than being told who your partners would be, and so the four of us met for countless hours in countless sessions to determine the make-up of our new conference to be. We considered the quality of men's basketball programs in the northeast, regional representation, significant media markets, etc. Boston College was invited over Holy Cross, UMass and Boston University. Connecticut was then added. Rutgers was extended an invitation but declined because it was aligned in the Atlantic 8 along with Penn State. Rutgers didn't feel comfortable disassociating itself with Penn State. Seton Hall took Rutgers spot. Villanova was also in the Atlantic 8, but it joined up a year later."

Gavitt's role in this cannot be underestimated and he had ties to all the founding schools--a fraternity brother to Crouthamel at Dartmouth, John Thompson's freshman coach at PC, working with Rienzo to help bring St. John's into the fold (Rienzo once taught alongside Lou Carnesecca at St. Ann's/Molloy) it all came together without TV or money in the way but would not have without Gavitt's drive, vision, and sense of timing.

[SirSaxa]

Good history lessons. As far as I recall, DFW's story is accurate and he is a far better historian than I.

What I can add is a little perspective about how good Holy Cross basketball was at the time and earlier. In 1978, they were a preseason Top10 team and Ronnie Perry would be a soph after winning National Freshman of the Year honors.  At that point, HC was the only school from NE to win an NCAA Championship, which they did in 1947, with NCAA tourney MVP George Kaftan, Joe Mullaney (who later coached Providence) and freshman star PG Bob Cousy. In 1954, HC won the NIT Championship - which was ahead of or no worse than on par with the NCAA tournament at that time. Tommy Heinsohn, who would join Cousy on the Celtic championship teams and later in the HOF.  BC never won.  And Providence, which had considerable success at the NIT over the years, never won an NCAA Title either.

One other long forgotten but very interesting tidbit. Lew Alcindor, who later became Kareem Abdul Jabbar, was clearly the #1 recruit in the country. I couldn't confirm this via google, but my memory is he came down to two schools, UCLA and Holy Cross. The young man chose to go west and won three NCAA Titles with John Wooden.   While I could not find confirmation about Holy Cross being in his final two, I did confirm that Alcindor's HS coach at Power Memorial in NYC was "Jack" Donohue, who became the HC at Holy Cross in 1965, the year before Alcindor graduated HS.  Imagine how the history of east coast basketball - and especially HC -- would have changed had he chosen the Cross?

At any rate, we are fortunate we had Frank Rienzo and JT around at the time, and the entire BE is lucky they had Dave Gavitt.  Heck, ESPN is lucky too because we all know they linked up with the BE and the two fledgling organizations achieved remarkable success together.

[beenaround]

Thanks to everyone for their posts on this thread. Great stuff.

[originalbigeaster]

I second beenaround! Thank you to everyone for their contributions!

[lichoya68]

pretty cool stuff now if big lew had gone to the cross OH MY WOWOWOWOWOOWWOWO

[hoyarooter]

May 22, 2015 11:49:26 GMT -5 lichoya68 said:

pretty cool stuff now if big lew had gone to the cross OH MY WOWOWOWOWOOWWOWO

Here's at least one guy that is happy that he didn't.