thebin
Diamond Hoya (over 2500 posts)
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Post by thebin on Mar 10, 2015 15:59:49 GMT -5
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SirSaxa
Blue & Gray (over 10,000 posts)
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Post by SirSaxa on Mar 10, 2015 16:37:10 GMT -5
Of course that's the risk-less course to take. And yet I can't help but think that your argument is emotional rather than rational. If we really think kids saying despicable awful things is fair game to have their lives essentially ruined we've lost all sense of proportion. But it makes us feel better about ourselves (at no cost) to unload on these idiots and there is no upside to ask the baying mob to calm down a bit and let the punishment fit the crime.....and boom! There's your mob SirSaxa. How many MILLIONS of 19 year old kids have sung disgusting and violent songs, told such jokes, about minorities other than themselves, girls, homosexuals, etc? Certainly that number is well into the millions. And yet we're shocked, shocked to find out there are 19 year old kids acting like jerks. We need to stop giving special power to that terrible word to give license for everyone to lose their minds in fits of self-congratulatory hysterics, tossing any semblance of balance to the wind. I don't feel bad for these rednecks any more than you do, but I don't dismiss the ugliness of mob justice in an iphone and twitter world either. We will have to disagree about its existence then. To me it is plain as day. There is no cost to demonizing these kids. There is only risk in asking that maybe they don't have to pay with their futures for uttering a vile and stupid song passed onto them from the idiots they look up to. I think you're asking them to pay for a lot of other people's sins in a way. I can dislike these stupid hillbillies as much as you do and still feel a bit queasy as I watch children paying a lifelong price for drunken college speech...vile speech? Yes? But speech. I don't think people have a right to speech without consequence, and yet these consequences feel rather excessive and it seems they are so only because it makes us feel good about ourselves to pound away at them on message boards. I find that more than a bit disturbing. I don't know about you, Bin, but I wasn't pounding away on anyone on a single message board. I am only responding to the comments here about "feeling sorry" for these kids. They are not the ones for whom I have sympathy. I also don't buy "their lives are ruined forever". They have a huge new challenge - true. But if they manage to see the light and truly understand how despicable their actions - and thoughts - were, there are ways to find rehabilitation. It will take some time, but hey - too bad. You got yourself into it. If you want to get out you're going to have to work at it. Learn something. Do community service. Volunteer. Apologize. Distance yourselves from that hateful speech - of course, they'd really have to mean it. Do something positive to compensate for the ugliness they've created. I get your point about "mob justice". But there is no actual mob, only a virtual one. No actual consequences from the "mob". Not to say there won't be actual consequences for them at OU. As for "self-congratulatory", couldn't that also apply to those who claim the "consequences" are unfair? We have social media these days. We have video everywhere. "Can't we all just get along?", "I can't breathe." No one made those kids sing that hate filled song. They did it. There are consequences. Who are you blaming for the "mob reaction" anyway? The thousands, millions of folks who were deeply offended -- individually -- by that behavior? How is it their fault? Aren't they allowed to express their indignation? Should they remain silent? "All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing." (Edmund Burke)
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quickplay
Silver Hoya (over 500 posts)
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Post by quickplay on Mar 10, 2015 16:42:14 GMT -5
"as I watch children paying a lifelong price for drunken college speech"
Children?
Also the 'make us feel better by ruining kids lives' is starting to get a bit obnoxious. It isn't about self-righteous ego, it's about not having fraternities run by obnoxious idiotic racist pieces of trash. He wasn't caught making a rude joke in private, they were chanting disgusting racial slurs in a context that directly relates it to their role in the fraternity, school, and larger culture. So no, I don't feel bad for these idiots.
"I think you're asking them to pay for a lot of other people's sins in a way." - Or, maybe they shouldn't be chanting the n-word about how they'll never let black people into their frat. You know, their own sins.
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thebin
Diamond Hoya (over 2500 posts)
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Post by thebin on Mar 10, 2015 19:14:51 GMT -5
As i suspected, most are unable to distinguish btwn feeling bad for these morons- something i explicitly said time and time again i did NOT- with being uncomfortable with the undeniable over-reaction in a speech/thought issue. I knew going into this argument that the risk of straw man reactions was near certain. I should have known issues such as these in this often infantile country leave no room for nuance at all when hysteria is the order of the day.
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quickplay
Silver Hoya (over 500 posts)
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Post by quickplay on Mar 10, 2015 21:25:49 GMT -5
What "undeniable" overreaction are you talking about? You keep just making up hypothetical overreactions and then accuse OTHER people of straw man arguments? That takes a lot of nerve.
How on earth is this a "thought" issue? This isn't just an issue of nasty racist language, it's a fraternity representing itself as a fundamentally discriminatory, racist organization.
I love your dismissal of people who don't see your enlightened take on the issue as infantile, but I've yet to see you make a serious point besides your discomfort with things you imagine might happen. Or the horror of people on online message boards condemning a bunch of racist goons.
Claiming an overreaction is not actually making a point. Balancing your non-point with 'oh but of course I don't feel bad for them, I'm just uncomfortable with...umm...hysteria' is laughably transparent.
You might have a great point. But you'll actually have to make it - your dismissal of people's anger at this as nothing but self-righteousness and hysteria is plain old vacuous. What exactly am I supposed to be uncomfortable with here?
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TC
Platinum Hoya (over 5000 posts)
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Post by TC on Mar 11, 2015 8:45:53 GMT -5
thebin, is this really a problem of impulse? Or is it an issue of conscience? The song was taught to them (see Parker Rice apology : talkingpointsmemo.com/livewire/parker-rice-apologizes-racist-chant). We know from other accounts that this is a tradition at SAE Southern chapters. At what point is it not just a drunken mistake and is it really a problem that these kids can't reject the views of the organization or the organization itself?
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thebin
Diamond Hoya (over 2500 posts)
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Post by thebin on Mar 11, 2015 8:52:16 GMT -5
What "undeniable" overreaction are you talking about? You keep just making up hypothetical overreactions and then accuse OTHER people of straw man arguments?...... What exactly am I supposed to be uncomfortable with here? Thought I had explained it pretty clearly in a few posts and nobody disputed it while disagreeing with me: namely that overreaction is the reality now awaiting these two vile morons: "This kid was being a total Jacka$$ and sang a stupid and vile and rancid song....and now he really needs to fund his own witness protection program, seriously consider changing his name, be faced with the prospect he will now never be college educated, find a good job, losing friends and perhaps even some family support, and presumably will soon have death threats....for saying a word?" TC no I do not think it makes it worse that this song is some disgusting tradition. Think it further underlines that we're applying a bit too much agency to these kids and they are going to be paying for the sins of the previous SAE members, etc. For the 100 hundredth and LAST TIME, i do NOT think this means they are innocent or worthy of sympathy. And at the same time I am uncomfortable withe the notion of people essentially having their young lives ruined for speech- even racist speech. Should they be embarrassed? Sure. Ostracized by decent people at the University? Sure. Maybe even suspended. But expelled by a president exercising a power that may not exist, having his name and photo all over the world's papers and the ensuing death threats, etc. seems excessive to me. And it seems something very new to me in this age where everything everyone does is filmed and can never be expunged from public record. Do none of you fear that new environment for your children? And don't pretend that the vile use of the N word is the only thing you need to avoid here.....Its a brave new world. I can think of a dozen things my friends said in college that were they recorded today and splashed all over the world would have ruined their lives if we were young in 2015. But hey, I guess that makes me George Wallace. There are thousands of people who will violently assault people, sexually assault women, and rob the elderly today who will never live in as much infamy as these two redneck clowns. Doesn't seem balanced or nuanced to me. But hey, this is America. We're all about useless symbolism when the cost is nil.
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quickplay
Silver Hoya (over 500 posts)
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Post by quickplay on Mar 11, 2015 9:28:39 GMT -5
True. I also get upset when Georgetown loses, which I guess is pretty silly of me because people rob the elderly and that's much worse than a basketball game.
I understand the concept of what you're driving at, I just really don't think it applies here. "namely that overreaction is the reality now awaiting these two vile morons...now he really needs to fund his own witness protection program, seriously consider changing his name, be faced with the prospect he will now never be college educated, find a good job, losing friends and perhaps even some family support, and presumably will soon have death threats....for saying a word"
That is NOT reality. That is making stuff up. Also losing friends and entering the witness protection program are NOT remotely comparable. He deserves to lose friends over this. He deserves to be ostracized by the campus. The extreme consequences are things you're just making up, so why am I supposed to feel uncomfortable with things that are not reality?
He didn't just use the N word. He used it in a context that showed him and his frat brothers are intentionally discriminating against their fellow students. The cost of that discrimination, to them, is nil. Like you said, it's probably been ongoing and they are just moving the tradition forward. But they are not five years old. They are not paying for the sins of those before them. They CHOSE to continue to propagate racism and discrimination on an institutional level. They clearly have been doing it for a long time. Unless this goes public, I see no reason to assume they would stop. I think this is a terrible example of useless symbolism and overreaction from the public. I fear more that my children might go to a college where some of their classmates TREAT them as subhuman than my children get caught singing songs about how they use their influence on campus to discriminate against their fellow students. The discomfort you feel with the brave new world of political correctness is entirely reasonable. Earlier in this thread I wrote about agreeing with the ridiculousness of the issue at GU. But this is a separate issue that stands on its own merits.
If you want to get into a discussion of how we should prioritize our outrage, that's fine. There's plenty wrong in the world that should be fixed. But it's a false dilemma to pretend that being outraged over this comes at the expense of addressing sexual assault. This is an actual, real issue. Want to know what isn't?
Georgetown Basketball
Every moment you spend angry at basketball is at the expense of anger over sexual assault. I'm sorry you don't have the ability to be balanced or nuanced with what's important.
Now that's a completely unfair thing to say. Which is the point.
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