A healthy dose of negativity

[sleepy]

Right now we are playing the best that we have so far this season and there are plenty of reasons to be optimistic and feel good. Since everyone else is covering those, however, I thought I'd expand on my biggest concern going forward.

The defense.

It's terrible.


Well, terrible might be too strong of a word, but it's a problem. I know it was extra terrible against Marquette, but I'm giving them a pass for not having Jabril and Peak. While both players have their defensive weaknesses, I actually think they would have made a difference and were a big part of our defensive game plan against Marquette. So I am going to erase that defensive performance from my memory and hope it was an aberration.

Still even doing that and factoring in the Villanova game, our defense isn't improving at the rate that I would have hoped. Some things have gotten better, rotations and transition defense, but we still have major, major issues. The way I see it, we have two majors issues.
1) Our perimeter defense is still terrible, we can't stay in front of our man and we still over help or under-help. So we allow completely uncontested layups or wide opens 3s/easy offensive putbacks. Our interior defense is adequate but isn't good enough to consistently cover for the poor perimeter defense.

2) We cannot play zone to save our lives. Outside of one half against Indiana, our zone is pretty much a 3 point guarantee for opposing teams. Two or three passes and it completely breaks down. It goes back to the issues we have in man with over helping and our issues on rotations. I think this team needs an effective zone in it's arsenal because of it's other defensive deficiencies and I'm increasingly concerned by it's lack of improvement, if not outright regression.

WIth our personnel we are never going to be an elite defensive team. We are just too young or unathletic at certain positions. However, we need to be better than we are. We might make the tournament with this defense but we aren't doing any damage in it with it.

What I see as our biggest problems is that our smartest players on defense are also at the biggest disadvantage physically, while our most physically gifted defenders just have very little defensive basketball IQ. I actually think DSR and Smith are our smartest defenders, they have good hands, good instincts, and are able to read offenses. However, they are both limited athletically which keeps them from being great defenders.* On the other hand everyone else has the physical tools but struggle with the mental aspect of D. Bowen is great athletically but doesn't have any idea on how to guard a shooter which is why we consistently burned when he is put on the other teams shooters. Then there are the freshman, which while they have improved, they are consistently beat and caught out of position. They are also not very good at keeping the man in front of them.

Then there is Hopkins and Trawick, who both fall somewhere in between. They are both gifted athletically in some ways, but can also make terrible defensive decisions. When they are able to make good defensive decisions and use their physical gifts they are two of our best defenders. They are a little hit or miss in that regard though.

I really think the key to improving the defense is White or Copeland to improve to average/good defenders. Right now they are beat off the dribble too much, backed down to easily, and out of position to frequently. I think it would give our interior defense a bit of help in covering for the perimeter D and allow us to play at least a few possessions of zone a game. They have the size and athleticism to be good defenders, it's frustrating to watch how ineffective they are at the moment. I know they are freshman and they are far out performing what any reasonable person should expect from a freshman offensively, I just hoped to see more improvement from them on the other end of the court by this point.

I know this post is probably coming off as overly negative, but it will be disappointing if don't reach our full potential because of our defense. I really think we are underperforming what we are capable of on that end of the court and it is frustrating to watch.

*I actually think DSR is the second best guard defender under III after Rivers(and have since last year), but I think he would be an elite defender with a bit more athleticism. I'm not undervaluing his defense, just noting his weakness.

[JohnnyJones]

Maybe this is all true, but prior to Marquette didn't we have the #1 rated FG% D in the BE?

[mfk24]

I'd have to re-watch some games because the Marquette game is freshest in my mind and the defense was admittedly horrible. But the stats don't necessarily bear this out. They pulled up a graphic during yesterday's game that showed us as the best FG% defense team in conference play. Make of that what you will. I think the biggest issues is we've given up a lot of timely scores, open 3s after just taking a lead, easy drives to the lane of an inbounds play, etc. that often change the momentum of a game. I think playing so many young guys is a huge part of that because it's hard to get them motivated to play a full 40 minute of defense, Bowen is guilty of this too. I just don't see defense that's that bad. Don't know if you watched the Duke-SJU game but Duke is a terrible defensive team. If not for the fact that the Johnnies have no bench and their guys ran out of gas, they had no business wining that game.

[hoyasaxa2003]

Our defense against Villanova was fantastic. They key is getting the defense to be more like that than it was against Marquette. We've got the tools, execution is the key.

[sweetness]

Don't forget we were missing Trawick which hurts defensively.

[FrazierFanatic]

We do have defensive issues to work on. But the fact that we play 4 freshmen in our 9 man rotation means they can improve significantly. Just hope it is this season.

[Locker]

One huge (and surprising) piece of good news on our defense: we are the second best defensive rebounding team in the league during conference play.

[SFHoya99]

This team's defense is already significantly better than last year's. And after having a run from Wisconsin through Xavier where we didn't hold a real team under 100 PPP, we've now held 5 of the last 7 under 96 PPP. So yeah, it's not elite but it's improved.

I can't actually tell from your post if you think this team can get better or not. But I think the focus on individual players is a mistake, I think -- defense is so often about players and how they play together. Right now, this team is still learning. I don't know if they will get there, but it's likely that as players like Copeland play more games with their teammates, they will play better defense together. Many of our problems come from mistakes on rotations, and we should expect that to get better.

Trawick, DSR and Hopkins have all played major minutes on an elite defensive team. I don't know that we'll get there, but individual weaknesses aren't going to be the major block, I don't think. It'll be how well the team gels on defense given the changing rotations and the integration of four freshmen.

[SSHoya]

Jan 25, 2015 18:18:38 GMT -5 FrazierFanatic said:

We do have defensive issues to work on. But the fact that we play 4 freshmen in our 9 man rotation means they can improve significantly. Just hope it is this season.

Rather than characterizing the defense as horrible, I think you could say it is maddeningly inconsistent. Villanova pretty good, Marquette, not as good because of the youth factor.

[SirSaxa]

Jan 25, 2015 17:57:09 GMT -5 sweetness said:

Don't forget we were missing Trawick which hurts defensively.

True, and we also did not have Peak.

Losing 2 starters has to impact your team D and O.
Amazing the rest of the guys came through so strong, including the other 3 frosh (not counting Zo Jr.)

[calhoya]

Jan 25, 2015 18:25:38 GMT -5 SFHoya99 said:

This team's defense is already significantly better than last year's. And after having a run from Wisconsin through Xavier where we didn't hold a real team under 100 PPP, we've now held 5 of the last 7 under 96 PPP. So yeah, it's not elite but it's improved.

I can't actually tell from your post if you think this team can get better or not. But I think the focus on individual players is a mistake, I think -- defense is so often about players and how they play together. Right now, this team is still learning. I don't know if they will get there, but it's likely that as players like Copeland play more games with their teammates, they will play better defense together. Many of our problems come from mistakes on rotations, and we should expect that to get better.

Trawick, DSR and Hopkins have all played major minutes on an elite defensive team. I don't know that we'll get there, but individual weaknesses aren't going to be the major block, I don't think. It'll be how well the team gels on defense given the changing rotations and the integration of four freshmen.

This is a very good summary of the issues on defense. It really is not a player or two that cause the problems. It's the breakdowns that occur as a team. People often do not focus on the real culprit on a bad play--it's not necessarily the person closest to the opponent who had the breakdown. It really is a problem of rotation, whether we play zone or man. I have re-watched yesterday's game and was pleasantly surprised to see that the defense was not as bad as I thought during the game. Many times the opponents were simply making good shots that were aggressively contested. Not much can be done about that. Also the defense was hampered by the short rotation after 2-3 players went down. By far the most minutes for Tre and also Copeland all year. Also, the officials were inconsistent which also affects the defensive play. One additional point to consider is that several of our perimeter players, including Peak, Bowen, White and Jabril are often guarding smaller quicker players who are natural guards. This is an issue in trying to deal with a team that moves the ball well. On our team we have only 3 natural guards, DSR, Tre and possibly Peak. By no means am I saying that the defense is good, but it is getting better and by year end could be more than adequate.

[sleepy]

Jan 25, 2015 18:25:38 GMT -5 SFHoya99 said:

This team's defense is already significantly better than last year's. And after having a run from Wisconsin through Xavier where we didn't hold a real team under 100 PPP, we've now held 5 of the last 7 under 96 PPP. So yeah, it's not elite but it's improved.

I can't actually tell from your post if you think this team can get better or not. But I think the focus on individual players is a mistake, I think -- defense is so often about players and how they play together. Right now, this team is still learning. I don't know if they will get there, but it's likely that as players like Copeland play more games with their teammates, they will play better defense together. Many of our problems come from mistakes on rotations, and we should expect that to get better.

Trawick, DSR and Hopkins have all played major minutes on an elite defensive team. I don't know that we'll get there, but individual weaknesses aren't going to be the major block, I don't think. It'll be how well the team gels on defense given the changing rotations and the integration of four freshmen.

Oh, I realize our defense is better than last years, but last years was so bad that I would pull an RDF if that wasn't the case. And while I am sure my post came off as quite negative, it's not that I think our defense is consistently terrible, just that it is our greatest weakness at this point. At least imo.

I realize defense is really a case where the whole is bigger than the parts, so I was focusing on individual players as a way to explain why I don't think our players fit together defensively. We have a mish mosh of conflicting defensive weaknesses that I think are hard to get to play together well. It is one of the (many) things that I think caused our defense to be so horrible last year. We just don't have a defensive identity yet, and I haven't seen one forming, which is my main concern. The pieces just don't seem to be coming together defensively in that regard, at least not yet. I think that is what leads to the inconsistent defensive performances.

And while I agree with your assessment on mistakes on rotations, I think that has already improved to the point where there isn't THAT much more room for improvement (except in the zone. In the zone that is our whole problem). Meaning the aspect of defense that is most easily improved isn't going to make that much of a difference for us, and that is why I'm worried.

I think this team can get better but I just don't have confidence that they will. We would need one of two things to happen :1) guys to do a better job at staying in front of their man or 2) learn to play some zone.

[sleepy]

Jan 25, 2015 18:31:16 GMT -5 SSHoya said:

Jan 25, 2015 18:18:38 GMT -5 FrazierFanatic said:

We do have defensive issues to work on. But the fact that we play 4 freshmen in our 9 man rotation means they can improve significantly. Just hope it is this season.

Rather than characterizing the defense as horrible, I think you could say it is maddeningly inconsistent. Villanova pretty good, Marquette, not as good because of the youth factor.

That is true, but really backs up my point. Maddeningly inconsistent defense is no recipe for success.

[Big Dog]

Jan 25, 2015 18:25:38 GMT -5 SFHoya99 said:

This team's defense is already significantly better than last year's. And after having a run from Wisconsin through Xavier where we didn't hold a real team under 100 PPP, we've now held 5 of the last 7 under 96 PPP. So yeah, it's not elite but it's improved.

I can't actually tell from your post if you think this team can get better or not. But I think the focus on individual players is a mistake, I think -- defense is so often about players and how they play together. Right now, this team is still learning. I don't know if they will get there, but it's likely that as players like Copeland play more games with their teammates, they will play better defense together. Many of our problems come from mistakes on rotations, and we should expect that to get better.

Trawick, DSR and Hopkins have all played major minutes on an elite defensive team. I don't know that we'll get there, but individual weaknesses aren't going to be the major block, I don't think. It'll be how well the team gels on defense given the changing rotations and the integration of four freshmen.

Speaking of which, how atrocious was the defense of III's second-half starting lineup yesterday? It was matador D. I believe the lineup was Campbell, Copeland, Smith, DSR, and maybe White? Was so intrigued as the half opened by that grouping and selection, and then they just let the lead go with drives to the interior of the defense with ease.

The Nova D was awesome.

[SFHoya99]

Jan 25, 2015 19:04:17 GMT -5 sleepy said:

Jan 25, 2015 18:25:38 GMT -5 SFHoya99 said:

This team's defense is already significantly better than last year's. And after having a run from Wisconsin through Xavier where we didn't hold a real team under 100 PPP, we've now held 5 of the last 7 under 96 PPP. So yeah, it's not elite but it's improved.

I can't actually tell from your post if you think this team can get better or not. But I think the focus on individual players is a mistake, I think -- defense is so often about players and how they play together. Right now, this team is still learning. I don't know if they will get there, but it's likely that as players like Copeland play more games with their teammates, they will play better defense together. Many of our problems come from mistakes on rotations, and we should expect that to get better.

Trawick, DSR and Hopkins have all played major minutes on an elite defensive team. I don't know that we'll get there, but individual weaknesses aren't going to be the major block, I don't think. It'll be how well the team gels on defense given the changing rotations and the integration of four freshmen.

Oh, I realize our defense is better than last years, but last years was so bad that I would pull an RDF if that wasn't the case. And while I am sure my post came off as quite negative, it's not that I think our defense is consistently terrible, just that it is our greatest weakness at this point. At least imo.

I realize defense is really a case where the whole is bigger than the parts, so I was focusing on individual players as a way to explain why I don't think our players fit together defensively. We have a mish mosh of conflicting defensive weaknesses that I think are hard to get to play together well. It is one of the (many) things that I think caused our defense to be so horrible last year. We just don't have a defensive identity yet, and I haven't seen one forming, which is my main concern. The pieces just don't seem to be coming together defensively in that regard, at least not yet. I think that is what leads to the inconsistent defensive performances.

And while I agree with your assessment on mistakes on rotations, I think that has already improved to the point where there isn't THAT much more room for improvement (except in the zone. In the zone that is our whole problem). Meaning the aspect of defense that is most easily improved isn't going to make that much of a difference for us, and that is why I'm worried.

I think this team can get better but I just don't have confidence that they will. We would need one of two things to happen :1) guys to do a better job at staying in front of their man or 2) learn to play some zone.

But when rotations were improved, that was Villanova. And the defense was really good. They were pretty bad versus Marquette, and the defense was bad. I think that there's a good defense in there.

And I actually think it may be the zone. Namely because a backline composed of people like Smith, Hopkins, Copeland, and White is pretty fantastic.

[SFHoya99]

Jan 25, 2015 19:08:28 GMT -5 Big Dog said:

Jan 25, 2015 18:25:38 GMT -5 SFHoya99 said:

This team's defense is already significantly better than last year's. And after having a run from Wisconsin through Xavier where we didn't hold a real team under 100 PPP, we've now held 5 of the last 7 under 96 PPP. So yeah, it's not elite but it's improved.

I can't actually tell from your post if you think this team can get better or not. But I think the focus on individual players is a mistake, I think -- defense is so often about players and how they play together. Right now, this team is still learning. I don't know if they will get there, but it's likely that as players like Copeland play more games with their teammates, they will play better defense together. Many of our problems come from mistakes on rotations, and we should expect that to get better.

Trawick, DSR and Hopkins have all played major minutes on an elite defensive team. I don't know that we'll get there, but individual weaknesses aren't going to be the major block, I don't think. It'll be how well the team gels on defense given the changing rotations and the integration of four freshmen.

Speaking of which, how atrocious was the defense of III's second-half starting lineup yesterday? It was matador D. I believe the lineup was Campbell, Copeland, Smith, DSR, and maybe White? Was so intrigued as the half opened by that grouping and selection, and then they just let the lead go with drives to the interior of the defense with ease.

The Nova D was awesome.

That was the lineup. It was terrible. Too much freshmen, perhaps.

[FrazierFanatic]

Yeah the freshmen were pretty ungood. Tre and Paul were blown by multiple times. Cope does not have the strength yet to be a strong defender, although he does react quickly.

Luckily their offense compensates for their defensive issues. And the D will prove with time and hard work.

[sleepy]

Jan 25, 2015 19:17:53 GMT -5 SFHoya99 said:

Jan 25, 2015 19:04:17 GMT -5 sleepy said:

Oh, I realize our defense is better than last years, but last years was so bad that I would pull an RDF if that wasn't the case. And while I am sure my post came off as quite negative, it's not that I think our defense is consistently terrible, just that it is our greatest weakness at this point. At least imo.

I realize defense is really a case where the whole is bigger than the parts, so I was focusing on individual players as a way to explain why I don't think our players fit together defensively. We have a mish mosh of conflicting defensive weaknesses that I think are hard to get to play together well. It is one of the (many) things that I think caused our defense to be so horrible last year. We just don't have a defensive identity yet, and I haven't seen one forming, which is my main concern. The pieces just don't seem to be coming together defensively in that regard, at least not yet. I think that is what leads to the inconsistent defensive performances.

And while I agree with your assessment on mistakes on rotations, I think that has already improved to the point where there isn't THAT much more room for improvement (except in the zone. In the zone that is our whole problem). Meaning the aspect of defense that is most easily improved isn't going to make that much of a difference for us, and that is why I'm worried.

I think this team can get better but I just don't have confidence that they will. We would need one of two things to happen :1) guys to do a better job at staying in front of their man or 2) learn to play some zone.

But when rotations were improved, that was Villanova. And the defense was really good. They were pretty bad versus Marquette, and the defense was bad. I think that there's a good defense in there.

And I actually think it may be the zone. Namely because a backline composed of people like Smith, Hopkins, Copeland, and White is pretty fantastic.

I just don't think rotations were the main issue against Marquette. Our inability to deny the ball in scoring position to the two of the the only three real scoring threats and our inability to not allow wide open lanes to the basket were. And before someone says we played good defense but got burned by insane shooting, there is a difference between tightly guarding a scorer/shooter and correctly guarding one. For instance: DSR did a great job of properly guarding Carlito in the 1st and 2nd half. He didn't let him catch the ball in way he could successfully catch and shoot and didn't let him get comfortable once he did get the ball. The problem was he was the only one doing this. Bowen tightly guarded Wilson, but did a terrible job at making it hard for him to shoot or catch the ball. Everyone else just let guys blow by them. And yes, a lot of that is because of freshman, but how much can you really expect that to improve as the season goes on?

And I agree our zone defense SHOULD be pretty great. But it is horrible. And it really doesn't make sense as III has had good zone defense before. I question his defensive strategy on this point if there hasn't been a significant effort to incorporate it or improve it.

[dense]

I also agree the fact we can't play zone is really hurting us. It's not just Josh who is struggling.

[professorhoya]

It's to be expected right now if you are going to play so many freshman. When you have 3 or 4 freshman on the court at the same time time each extra freshman exponentially cause problems and the defense can completely break down. The guy Tre Campbell was guarding scored 26 points and Copeland and White still get mixed up alot on defense and still have problems boxing out.

The good news is their defense should improve the more games they play and the more they practice.