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Post by professorhoya on Jan 16, 2015 13:33:57 GMT -5
Gonzaga and UConn (downgrade football0 are the two strongest candidates. Gonzaga? Really? Does anyone here know how many sports they even have? Who's paying to send the tennis team 2,500 miles to Spokane? Conference membership is not merely about fielding a basketball team. And football is not a disqualifier if you're not going to be a playoff-eligible entrant in the first place. It's already been discussed but you just have them in the Big East for basketball. Notre Dame has done a similar thing where their football is split off from the rest of their sports.
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TBird41
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Post by TBird41 on Jan 16, 2015 13:35:57 GMT -5
Look, if they're not bringing a live mascot to spend the day with Jack, we don't need them. Until Gonzaga and UConn adopt live dogs to serve as their mascots, they are not Big East caliber programs, and all we'd be doing is diluting our conference brand.
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Post by professorhoya on Jan 16, 2015 13:40:39 GMT -5
As for Gonzaga. . .it will never happen. Is it an attractive basketball program? Absolutely. Does the school fit the Big East profile academically and size-wise? Absolutely. But it's on the other side of the country! If Gonzaga's basketball program was at the level of Saint Louis or Dayton, would they even be in the Big East expansion discussion? I think not. But it is a very attractive basketball programs. So no point in what iffing about whether if it were at a St. Louis/Dayton level. The distance thing isn't as big a deal since the conference would likely be split up into a Midwest and Eastern division. They'd be with Creighton, Xavier, DePaul, Marquette, Butler.
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Post by ColumbiaHeightsHoya on Jan 16, 2015 13:50:27 GMT -5
Prof, this is classic Gtown east coast bias and general lack of knowledge of where the middle of our country is. Just because Butler, Xavier, Depaul & Marquette (intentionally leaving out our western most team) are west of us doesn't mean this is viable. Creighton is our western most team by about four to five hundred miles and are 1100 miles from the east coast teams. Spokane is another 1400 miles from Omaha. So having Depaul, Xavier, Marquette, Butler and Creighton being travelling partners to Spokane which is 1900 miles from them wouldn't be reasonable for all sports and would hardly make sense for basketball only. It would also be brutal for the Gonzaga team as they would constantly be a couple thousand miles from campus. This may make sense in a decade when Elon Musk further develops his teleport prototype.
We might as well explore playing Oxford & Cambridge assuming they have good squads because the mileage wouldn't be that much greater.
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Post by professorhoya on Jan 16, 2015 14:00:58 GMT -5
Prof, this is classic Gtown east coast bias and general lack of knowledge of where the middle of our country is. Just because Butler, Xavier, Depaul & Marquette (intentionally leaving out our western most team) are west of us doesn't mean this is viable. Creighton is our western most team by about four to five hundred miles and are 1100 miles from the east coast teams. Spokane is another 1400 miles from Omaha. So having Depaul, Xavier, Marquette, Butler and Creighton being travelling partners to Spokane which is 1900 miles from them wouldn't be reasonable for all sports and would hardly make sense for basketball only. It would also be brutal for the Gonzaga team as they would constantly be a couple thousand miles from campus. This may make sense in a decade when Elon Musk further develops his teleport prototype. We might as well explore playing Oxford & Cambridge assuming they have good squads because the mileage wouldn't be that much greater. You have to ask yourself why can't it be basketball only. That has been proposed before. In terms of distance, people are exaggerating on the problem. Hawaii has been playing in the Mountain West conference and they are 2500 miles from California and they make it work. Surely, a place like Gonzaga which is less than half the distance of that can also succeed.
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EtomicB
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Post by EtomicB on Jan 16, 2015 14:13:47 GMT -5
Prof, this is classic Gtown east coast bias and general lack of knowledge of where the middle of our country is. Just because Butler, Xavier, Depaul & Marquette (intentionally leaving out our western most team) are west of us doesn't mean this is viable. Creighton is our western most team by about four to five hundred miles and are 1100 miles from the east coast teams. Spokane is another 1400 miles from Omaha. So having Depaul, Xavier, Marquette, Butler and Creighton being travelling partners to Spokane which is 1900 miles from them wouldn't be reasonable for all sports and would hardly make sense for basketball only. It would also be brutal for the Gonzaga team as they would constantly be a couple thousand miles from campus. This may make sense in a decade when Elon Musk further develops his teleport prototype. We might as well explore playing Oxford & Cambridge assuming they have good squads because the mileage wouldn't be that much greater. You have to ask yourself why can't it be basketball only. That has been proposed before. In terms of distance, people are exaggerating on the problem. Hawaii has been playing in the Mountain West conference and they are 2500 miles from California and they make it work. Surely, a place like Gonzaga which is less than half the distance of that can also succeed. Do you know for sure the WCC would allow Gonzaga's other sports to stay in conference? Hawaii does not have any options but to travel if they want to compete though.. Not a good example to use
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njhoya78
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Post by njhoya78 on Jan 16, 2015 14:15:44 GMT -5
One reason why it probably cannot be basketball only is that Gonzaga then has to find a league in which to "park" the rest of its teams. Without the basketball team in the conference, the Zags could well be forced out of the West Coast Conference and have no place for the other sports. You can't analogize it to Notre Dame and the ACC arrangement, because Notre Dame's football program is able to commandeer a national television contract on NBC. As for Hawaii and the Mountain West. . .well, where else are they going to go?
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Post by professorhoya on Jan 16, 2015 14:19:09 GMT -5
You have to ask yourself why can't it be basketball only. That has been proposed before. In terms of distance, people are exaggerating on the problem. Hawaii has been playing in the Mountain West conference and they are 2500 miles from California and they make it work. Surely, a place like Gonzaga which is less than half the distance of that can also succeed. Do you know for sure the WCC would allow Gonzaga's other sports to stay in conference? Hawaii does not have any options but to travel if they want to compete though.. Not a good example to use It's a good example because it shows that it can work. I would rather have a great conference with great perennial top 25 programs rather than a mediocre conference with lesser programs like Dayton or St. Louis or VCU sans Shaka Smart. If you wanted to make it work the Big East and Gonzaga will find a way to make it work. Most conferences seem to be going national anyway what with capturing TV markets/geographic regions and in order to get into the college football final 4.
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Post by professorhoya on Jan 16, 2015 14:30:36 GMT -5
The other option would be to just raid the WCC and take Gonzaga, BYU, and add maybe UNLV and a California school.
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EtomicB
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Post by EtomicB on Jan 16, 2015 14:37:41 GMT -5
Do you know for sure the WCC would allow Gonzaga's other sports to stay in conference? Hawaii does not have any options but to travel if they want to compete though.. Not a good example to use It's a good example because it shows that it can work. I would rather have a great conference with great perennial top 25 programs rather than a mediocre conference with lesser programs like Dayton or St. Louis or VCU sans Shaka Smart. If you wanted to make it work the Big East and Gonzaga will find a way to make it work. Most conferences seem to be going national anyway what with capturing TV markets/geographic regions and in order to get into the college football final 4. No it isn't because Gonzaga has other options, Hawaii doesn't.. If Hawaii wants to compete in HM sports they must travel.. You didn't answer the question of what will Gonzaga do with it's other sports if their current conference wants all or nothing?
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Filo
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Post by Filo on Jan 16, 2015 14:39:25 GMT -5
Do you know for sure the WCC would allow Gonzaga's other sports to stay in conference? Hawaii does not have any options but to travel if they want to compete though.. Not a good example to use It's a good example because it shows that it can work. I would rather have a great conference with great perennial top 25 programs rather than a mediocre conference with lesser programs like Dayton or St. Louis or VCU sans Shaka Smart. If you wanted to make it work the Big East and Gonzaga will find a way to make it work. Most conferences seem to be going national anyway what with capturing TV markets/geographic regions and in order to get into the college football final 4. Maybe not so great an example. First thing I got when I googled it: •University of Hawai‘i Athletics has the highest travel costs in the country because we have to fly everywhere. •UH Athletics spends approximately $5.6 million per year on travel (approximately 18% of the total Athletics operating budget) •When the University of Hawai‘i brings other teams here to compete, we pay for their airfare, hotel and meals. This is a unique situation for the NCAA. Last year we spent $2.2M on travel subsidies and guarantees. •The high costs of travel also impact recruitment. Bringing sterling athletes and their parents to Hawai‘i for recruitment, costs an average of $7,000. Last year the men’s basketball team spent $235,000 on 9 trips and spent 40 days on the road. Total air miles traveled: 46,000.
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Post by professorhoya on Jan 16, 2015 14:44:05 GMT -5
It's a good example because it shows that it can work. I would rather have a great conference with great perennial top 25 programs rather than a mediocre conference with lesser programs like Dayton or St. Louis or VCU sans Shaka Smart. If you wanted to make it work the Big East and Gonzaga will find a way to make it work. Most conferences seem to be going national anyway what with capturing TV markets/geographic regions and in order to get into the college football final 4. No it isn't because Gonzaga has other options, Hawaii doesn't.. If Hawaii wants to compete in HM sports they must travel.. You didn't answer the question of what will Gonzaga do with it's other sports if their current conference wants all or nothing? Find another conference. That would all boil down to negotiations and such. When expansion was talked about two years ago, people were talking about Gonzaga and St. Mary's finding another conference for its other sports so it has been discussed before on here. The other option is just don't expand the Big East at all. I'd rather keep it small than add mediocre schools like Dayton and St. Louis that really have no national recognition.
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Post by professorhoya on Jan 16, 2015 14:47:14 GMT -5
It's a good example because it shows that it can work. I would rather have a great conference with great perennial top 25 programs rather than a mediocre conference with lesser programs like Dayton or St. Louis or VCU sans Shaka Smart. If you wanted to make it work the Big East and Gonzaga will find a way to make it work. Most conferences seem to be going national anyway what with capturing TV markets/geographic regions and in order to get into the college football final 4. Maybe not so great an example. First thing I got when I googled it: •University of Hawai‘i Athletics has the highest travel costs in the country because we have to fly everywhere. •UH Athletics spends approximately $5.6 million per year on travel (approximately 18% of the total Athletics operating budget) •When the University of Hawai‘i brings other teams here to compete, we pay for their airfare, hotel and meals. This is a unique situation for the NCAA. Last year we spent $2.2M on travel subsidies and guarantees. •The high costs of travel also impact recruitment. Bringing sterling athletes and their parents to Hawai‘i for recruitment, costs an average of $7,000. Last year the men’s basketball team spent $235,000 on 9 trips and spent 40 days on the road. Total air miles traveled: 46,000.So for basketball only for Gonzaga you would probably be looking at half that cost and mileage. $170,000. Which isn't bad considering the TV revenue they would get from the Big East.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jan 16, 2015 14:51:03 GMT -5
Then we are agreed - Gonzaga is in. The traffic in basketball will be permitted, but controlled, and Val Ackerman will give up protection in the East - and there will be the peace.
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EtomicB
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Post by EtomicB on Jan 16, 2015 14:57:00 GMT -5
No it isn't because Gonzaga has other options, Hawaii doesn't.. If Hawaii wants to compete in HM sports they must travel.. You didn't answer the question of what will Gonzaga do with it's other sports if their current conference wants all or nothing? Find another conference. That would all boil down to negotiations and such. When expansion was talked about two years ago, people were talking about Gonzaga and St. Mary's finding another conference for it's other sports so it has been discussed before on here. The other option is just don't expand the Big East at all. I'd rather keep it small than add mediocre schools like Dayton and St. Louis that really have no national recognition. Fair enough but you have to admit its easier said than done.. I'll be honest the thought of having 10pm starts for conference games isn't appealing to me at all..
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Post by aleutianhoya on Jan 16, 2015 15:15:51 GMT -5
I think NCAA rules forbid your participating in multiple conferences if the conference in which most of your sports are in sponsors the sport you're trying to park somewhere else. I think I saw that somewhere, but someone I'm sure will correct me if I'm mistaken.
I don't think it's impossible to make it work, but you'd have to take a close look at the numbers. I don't know the WCC's TV deal, but it surely pales in comparison to what we're getting, so the money would more than make up for all of the expenses just for men's basketball. (And, remember, it's not just straight TV money...it's also NCAA units, which are significant, and which the BE has many more of). So, it likely would be in the Zags' economic interest to make it work for basketball. Does it still work if you add in all of the other sports' expenses? Don't know. They sponsor baseball, both basketballs, track (not a big deal due to the nature of the sport), both soccers, tennis, and volleyball. That's a significant number of teams and participants to have to travel a lot more than they do now. But....all those teams almost surely fly to all their conference games now -- the west coast is just that much bigger than the east coast, so I don't know that it's that much different.
The bigger question is whether their addition would up the revenue for all of us in the BE enough to merit OUR increased travel and pain in the rear traveling out there.
On the one hand, I like close geographic proximity in my conferences. I think it makes the rivalries more real. But that ship has sailed.
I also think a true nationwide conference would be kind of neat.
All in all? I'd leave it just the way it is, unless TV tells us they really want or need us to expand.
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gunny
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Post by gunny on Jan 16, 2015 15:50:47 GMT -5
How close is West Virginia to its closest opponent in the Big 12?
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Post by professorhoya on Jan 16, 2015 16:04:56 GMT -5
How close is West Virginia to its closest opponent in the Big 12? Great point. Iowa State is the closest at 871 miles. The Kansas schools are 1000+ miles away. Texas Longhorns and the other Texas schools are 1500 miles away. So this along with Hawaii just kind of busts the myth/excuse that it's not possible to add Gonzaga. West Virginia is in the Big 12 for all sports and yet it still felt it was advantageous to go the Big 12: www.sportsbusinessdaily.com/Journal/Issues/2013/07/22/In-Depth/College-travel-costs.aspx
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SFHoya99
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Post by SFHoya99 on Jan 16, 2015 16:21:55 GMT -5
People can correct me if I'm wrong but when the league was first being formed, Gonzaga was considered (along with St. Mary's). What I thought I read was:
1) All team entrance was deemed too costly, either in terms of money, or student-athlete time, or both. 2) The WCC was not willing to let Gonzaga stay in the conference for everything but Men's Basketball.
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Post by professorhoya on Jan 16, 2015 16:30:45 GMT -5
People can correct me if I'm wrong but when the league was first being formed, Gonzaga was considered (along with St. Mary's). What I thought I read was: 1) All team entrance was deemed too costly, either in terms of money, or student-athlete time, or both. 2) The WCC was not willing to let Gonzaga stay in the conference for everything but Men's Basketball. All teams is out of the question IMO. So yes they would have to find a conference that would accept them. But as far as basketball you could work it like this. 12 teams (add Gonzaga and let's say another midwestern school like Wichita State) Then Western Division: Gonzaga Wichita State Creighton DePaul Marquette Butler Eastern Division: Traditional Big East Schools + Xavier You would play teams in your own division twice. Teams in the other division once. But since you are at home for 3 of the cross divisional games, Gonzaga would only have to travel to the east coast teams 3 times a year. Make those cities something like New York (St. Johns, Seton Hall), Philly (Villanova), Washington, D.C. (Georgetown) and you have an appealing recruiting tool. **Add a stipulation that Gonzaga always gets Providence at home, so they never have to travel to Rhode Island.
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