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Post by aleutianhoya on Jan 8, 2015 10:35:33 GMT -5
DFW, makes sense but I do think Butler, Creighton & Xavier have the program thing down. Butler's former coaches are Stevens, Lickliter, Collier & Matta. Creighton is a program that with some money along with their fan base can attract kids in a state without any other major program (including Nebraska) and Xavier's coaching tree is Gillen, Prosser, Miller & Matta. Those are pretty good hires by Butler & Xavier over long stretches and a higher success rate than Gtown when you factor in Esh. All of those schools have better facilities than we currently do and they have fan bases that sell out their facilities. Now with the Fox money, they should be able to hire and eventually keep the assistants that are lead recruiters that are likely the difference between their big competition. The old big east lost Va Tech, Miami & BC who were all bottom feeder BBall teams at the time and South Florida was never any good. That iteration also had some mistakes in the expansion department that are far worse then the current version. If you can get an awful (3-0) Depaul program back on track and you give Butler, Creighton and Xavier the time to recruit big east players (Butler still has Horizon league guys on that roster), it will be easier to judge. Oh, I think our choices this time around were indisputably correct, given our desire to have ten members. Xavier has, quite literally, as good a record of qualification for the NCAAs as any team in our league (and among the very best in the country) over the past 20-30 years. The jury is out on Creighton and Butler. Creighton's success level is much, much more sporadic. And Butler obviously has had terrific success very recently (six bids since 2007 and terrific success in March) but only six bids in its history prior to that. We could have picked other schools, for sure, but any other choice would have had warts at least as big. In any event, it's always instructive to note that if you were a fan of, say, Villanova in 1979, you could have said the same about Georgetown entering the Big East, as we said about Butler entering last season. The Hoyas were a team with very recent success (three recent bids to the NCAAs) but excepting that WW-II era run to the Final Four and a few very sporadic NIT bids, nothing to speak of before that.....
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Post by FrazierFanatic on Jan 8, 2015 10:45:27 GMT -5
All you young whippersnappers are always in such a hurry. Grow now, add now, more/bigger/faster.
The conference leaders know what they are doing. Let the new brand establish itself on the national scene. Let college hoops fans become familiar with exactly who is in the conference. When that has happened in a few years, carefully examine all of the factors and options for potential growth.
Oh, and in the meantime, you kids stay off my lawn!
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Elvado
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Post by Elvado on Jan 8, 2015 10:47:57 GMT -5
All you young whippersnappers are always in such a hurry. Grow now, add now, more/bigger/faster. The conference leaders know what they are doing. Let the new brand establish itself on the national scene. Let college hoops fans become familiar with exactly who is in the conference. When that has happened in a few years, carefully examine all of the factors and options for potential growth. Oh, and in the meantime, you kids stay off my lawn! Thank you for speaking so eloquently for the older crowd.
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EtomicB
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Post by EtomicB on Jan 8, 2015 12:01:53 GMT -5
You're right, of course, Ranch, that the Big East as originally constituted brought semi-moribund programs to respectability and prominence. But the BE of the 1980s needed those teams just to get to 9 members. They were the very best possible members to invite to meet the minimum goal for membership (indeed, originally, Holy Cross and Rutgers were invited in lieu of Pitt). And it took them years to reach prominence. That's not the position we're in now. Actually, Holy Cross and Rutgers were recruited ahead of Boston College and Seton Hall. Pitt was in the Eastern Eight at the time and was not one of the early targets. Expansion sounds like fun but when you recruit teams instead of programs, trouble follows. Butler sounded great with Brad Stevens...until he left. The Big 12 couldn't miss with West Virginia, could they? Anyone in the Pac-12 want a do-over on Colorado? The Big East doesn't need the Catholic school du jour. When Shaka Smart gets the polite tap on the shoulder from ESPN to move to Penn State or Florida State or some major school, VCU looks more like George Mason South than a national program. St. Louis without Majerus is another generic 17 win team playing Fordham and Bona. Haste makes waste. Wait for the next round of musical chairs when the Jim Delany comes calling at Chapel Hill and Charlottesville. You might be surprised at who starts knocking on Fox's door. What should the Big 12 have done DFW? They lost 4 schools in 2 years.. Without the conference tourney the PAC-12 gained from adding Colorado & Utah, there's a good chance Oregon isn't playing for the national championship.. Sure Colorado stinks but having a team in the championship game is huge for their conference.. Why would Smart pass on UCLA and Marquette but the go to Florida State or even worse Penn State? Smart seems happy at VCU and they're obviously happy with him, why do folks keep pushing the idea he's waiting for the bigger and better? It may not be about the money with him either.. www.vcuramnation.com/2014/04/shaka-rejects-contract-upgrade-allocates-money-to-team/Shaka currently makes about $1,500,000 per year, with additional incentives. This year, according to VCU Athletic Director Ed McLaughlin, “Shaka didn’t want anything new or to even discuss the contract”. Instead, Shaka requested that any additional money be allocated to the team. As such, VCU will be allocating an additional $200,000 to the basketball program this year (as well as an additional $100,000 next year). The money will come from private funds, including ticket sales and general fundraising. The additional money will be used for assistant coach salaries and team entertainment. For example, some money can be used to send the team to DC to watch former Ram Larry Sanders (Milwaukee Bucks) play against the Wizards, giving them an opportunity to see what can be achieved. With perhaps one of the greatest incoming recruiting classes (ranked #15, with 3 ESPN TOP 100s ) of all time, and a recently announced $25 million practice facility on the way, Shaka and the VCU Athletic Department are poised to make even more history at VCU.Btw this 25 million dollar basketball ONLY practice facility is scheduled to be ready for the start of the 2015-16 season. Even if Smart leaves the VCU program is setup very well for the future.. I think G'town & VCU could have a great rivalry which would be a great thing for local recruiting for both schools
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Post by hoyasaxa2003 on Jan 8, 2015 12:28:53 GMT -5
If we were going to add an 11th school right now, VCU would be my choice for sure, but I still think it's better to wait and see what happens.
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boxout05
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Post by boxout05 on Jan 8, 2015 12:29:50 GMT -5
Also to be noted, Jeff Capel and Anthony Grant snagged a few NCAA autobids before they moved on to major programs, similar to (though less successful than) Butler and Xavier's coaching trees.
Don't think anyone disagrees that patience is the order of the day, but it's interesting speculation.
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DFW HOYA
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Post by DFW HOYA on Jan 8, 2015 13:34:10 GMT -5
What should the Big 12 have done DFW? They lost 4 schools in 2 years.. Absent BYU, how about a school in the largest city without a P5 team? 40,000 students, new stadium, tons of local recruits, and historic ties to half the Big 12: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/TDECU_Stadium#mediaviewer/File:Night_panorama_of_TDECU_Stadium.JPGI think G'town & VCU could have a great rivalry which would be a great thing for local recruiting for both schools I don't understand this line of thought--these schools have nothing in common, athletically or otherwise. It would be like adding George Mason or Old Dominion. Or put it another way--if Smart left, is VCU that compelling that you would still want them?
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thebin
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Post by thebin on Jan 8, 2015 13:43:43 GMT -5
I really doubt Pac12 regrets inviting Colorado or Utah. Those are flagship universities and programs that carry for the most part their state's populace. Even better if Colorado has been a relatively easy W in the process. If you are old guard Pac10 the best case scenario for expansion was adding a flagship program with a history of some success and which caries a pretty big market. But then getting a valuable league W consistently to boot? Mission accomplished.
The Pac12 is to my mind the only league in any position to give the SEC a run for its money in the medium to long term. They seem to be nailing it.
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EtomicB
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Post by EtomicB on Jan 8, 2015 14:11:08 GMT -5
What should the Big 12 have done DFW? They lost 4 schools in 2 years.. Absent BYU, how about a school in the largest city without a P5 team? 40,000 students, new stadium, tons of local recruits, and historic ties to half the Big 12: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/TDECU_Stadium#mediaviewer/File:Night_panorama_of_TDECU_Stadium.JPGI think G'town & VCU could have a great rivalry which would be a great thing for local recruiting for both schools I don't understand this line of thought--these schools have nothing in common, athletically or otherwise. It would be like adding George Mason or Old Dominion. Or put it another way--if Smart left, is VCU that compelling that you would still want them? Being born, raised & schooled from K thru college in Connecticut, I've never been a big CFB fan.. I never ever paid any attention to BE football.. So as an admitted novice if you asked me to pick between WVU & Houston, I'm taking WVU every time... Maybe that's why the Big 12 execs looked WVU's way before Houston.. What did/does G'town have in common with Syracuse besides the fact they both have HM basketball programs? Yes, I would still take VCU if Smart left because they're an eastern basketball school that has set themselves up for long term success.. G'town just played Marquette with 8200 folks in the building and it'll be a very similar crowd for Xavier or Seton Hall or DePaul as well.. However I'd bet a nice chunk a change that a G'town weeknight home game versus VCU would sellout every time..
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thebin
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Post by thebin on Jan 8, 2015 15:06:07 GMT -5
I don't understand the phobia of big state schools as long as they have not recently demonstrated FBS football aspirations (like ODU.) VCU would be on my shortlist of candidates just behind St. Louis and top choice Gonzaga for associate membership.
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GUMBA
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Post by GUMBA on Jan 8, 2015 17:14:57 GMT -5
I agree with EtomicB's comments. Born and raised in Upstate New York (not in the hell hole of Syracuse thank goodness) CFB makes me turn the channel. Yet I do like to watch the pro game. It is the exact opposite with basketball. Love the college game and hate the pro game. I think we actually need a couple of decent sized public schools in the conference to bolster attendance at home games, the BET and to boost overall TV ratings. The TV numbers posted earlier show the draw is getting harder and harder in the splintered TV universe that exists today. Size does matter when it comes to TV eyeballs and advertising. Especially as sports programming and entertainment consumption is moving increasingly toward over the top "OTT" digital streaming platforms. See Dish's announcement this week to include ESPN in a Sling Media streaming package for 20 clams a month. If we could only convince UCONN, Memphis, Temple and UMASS to give up or demote their FBS to Division 1 AA they would all be good adds for Big East basketball. But the prospects of that happening are dim. For me, VCU stands far above the other choices for near term expansion. They have no stated football aspirations and are investing to cement their basketball future. Shaka is a great coach and nationally known. They would be a great local rival for Georgetown. They are certainly more like a Syracuse or UCONN than a St. John's or Villanova if you were to typecast them. But I ask you guys, which games/rivalries meant more to you over the past 10-20 years? For me it was always about beating the dreaded Orange or Huskies before besting the more similar Catholic teams -- Wildcats, Red Storm, Friars or Fighting Irish. Now if you agree to add VCU in the East, who do you add in the Midwest to get to 12? Wichita State seems as likely a candidate as St. Louis given their recent record but it can be debated.
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Post by jctnhoya4ever on Jan 8, 2015 18:14:37 GMT -5
i think st joseph's would be good along with vcu,dayton,and st louis. st joseph's will be back strong after there coach retires.not that he is the problem,but if he retires it brings in that fire and drive a new coach brings to get back strong again. and they are in a good basketball area to do it to.they will get good recruits,and should be back strong in the future. go gu!!!!!!
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njhoya78
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Post by njhoya78 on Jan 8, 2015 18:18:11 GMT -5
What would St. Joseph's bring to the conference? It is the same television market as Villanova. I'd say the chances of St. Joseph's getting an offer to join the Big East Conference are just slightly worse than Dayton, and I see no chance that Dayton ever gets a bid.
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FLHoya
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Post by FLHoya on Jan 8, 2015 20:19:38 GMT -5
Lehigh GW Illinois State Oregon State Colorado Ohio Loyola Marymount
Because our most pressing need right now, apparently, is somebody who can compete with DePaul.
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hoyainspirit
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Post by hoyainspirit on Jan 8, 2015 23:02:46 GMT -5
i think st joseph's would be good along with vcu,dayton,and st louis. st joseph's will be back strong after there coach retires.not that he is the problem,but if he retires it brings in that fire and drive a new coach brings to get back strong again. and they are in a good basketball area to do it to.they will get good recruits,and should be back strong in the future. go gu!!!!!! My gosh no!
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TBird41
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Post by TBird41 on Jan 16, 2015 8:51:49 GMT -5
Another thing to consider--is it really worth adding other teams if it means we lose the annual Bulldog Summit? I say no. I mean, does UConn even have a Husky they could bring to meet with Jack? (And even if it did, would it even be housebroken?)
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njhoya78
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Post by njhoya78 on Jan 16, 2015 10:49:27 GMT -5
Hey, I'm not sure that Fagan is housebroken.
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Post by professorhoya on Jan 16, 2015 11:57:26 GMT -5
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DFW HOYA
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Post by DFW HOYA on Jan 16, 2015 12:15:13 GMT -5
Gonzaga and UConn (downgrade football0 are the two strongest candidates. Gonzaga? Really? Does anyone here know how many sports they even have? Who's paying to send the tennis team 2,500 miles to Spokane? Conference membership is not merely about fielding a basketball team. And football is not a disqualifier if you're not going to be a playoff-eligible entrant in the first place.
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njhoya78
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Post by njhoya78 on Jan 16, 2015 13:15:16 GMT -5
I don't see the issue with football being whether a school is not a playoff-eligible entrant. I see the issue as being having a school join a conference, and then potentially leave for a Power 5 conference if a slot were to be made available. It is not implausible that Connecticut could receive a bid to join the Big 12 or the ACC, even if just to be a bottom dweller on the football side. Yes, Boston College will do whatever it can to keep UConn out of the ACC, but if another school (i.e., Florida State to the Big 12 or North Carolina to the B1G) were to leave the ACC, they will look to expand. We have already lived through the vivisection of the old Big East, and we don't need to go through that again.
As for Gonzaga. . .it will never happen. Is it an attractive basketball program? Absolutely. Does the school fit the Big East profile academically and size-wise? Absolutely. But it's on the other side of the country! If Gonzaga's basketball program was at the level of Saint Louis or Dayton, would they even be in the Big East expansion discussion? I think not.
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