DFW HOYA
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Post by DFW HOYA on Jan 7, 2015 9:13:13 GMT -5
Rapid expansion for expansion's sake is a great idea Sincerely, Phil Woosnam Well played.
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TBird41
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Post by TBird41 on Jan 7, 2015 10:23:54 GMT -5
There's no need to expand immediately, but it seems inevitable. I used to think a spot in a Western Division was SLU's to lose because of the market, cultural fit, and recent success ... but we can afford to let them prove they can win without Majerus. First, they aren't going anywhere. Second, there isn't a natural addition from the east coast - maybe Richmond or Davidson but that's expansion for expansion's sake. Wichita State and VCU would work for me and I hope they'd accept, but I assume the decision makers have reservations about their size/pedigree/state funding/etc and that's why they never received serious discussion. Oh well. Most importantly, UConn and Memphis would be game changing additions if they give up football but I can't see that happening until another round of P5 expanions plays out. I wouldn't even trust a team a crappy FBS football program like ODU until then. I think you're right, in that the only teams that would be worth inviting in the near future are UConn, Memphis, VCU and Wichita St. Everyone else has too many question marks, either due to being too small or having too little success. And there's a clear gap between UConn / Memphis and VCU / Wichita St. I think the latter two only get added either because we need a program to pair with UConn or Memphis (because the other one joined a power 5 conference) or because both UConn and Memphis have joined a power five conference and expansion is necessary for whatever reason (like Fox Sports says so). And between VCU and Wichita St., I think VCU is a much better addition, both for Georgetown (regional rivalries are good) and because they've been successful across three coaches (Capel, Grant and Smart) and have 7 tournaments since 2004. Wichita St. only has four tournaments since 2004, and three were in the past three years under Marshall, so they haven't shown the same continued success that VCU has had both on the court and in hiring coaches.
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thebin
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Post by thebin on Jan 7, 2015 13:51:45 GMT -5
I hate the American sports tradition of always bifurcating into smaller and smaller baby divisions. I think at some point the Big East may expand from 10 to 12 but I hope never more than 12. And I hope it is done without creating divisions as round robin play with 12 teams is certainly possible.
Who to pick for those last two slots? We should tread carefully and be in no rush. But first off, no programs that have IA football period. If Temple or Uconn want to kill theirs, then sure, we'll talk after they kill FB or reduce it to IAA. I thought Memphis might be on the verge of doing that but they had a good season by virtue of the fact that the ACC took all of the decent fb teams out of the AAC already.
St. Louis seems attractive. Doesn't ODU have big football aspirations? VCU seems attractive- I don't understand the fear of a bigish state schools who don't have fb. And I still would seriously consider Gonzaga for a hoops only associate membership. Dayton? Meh. Davidson? Way too small. SMU? I will go ahead and assume that was a typo.
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Post by Ranch Dressing on Jan 7, 2015 16:21:56 GMT -5
Need to dream big, bin. Love the Gonzaga idea.
If it is possible to methodically, opportunistically, and smartly grow the Big East to 16 teams across 2 divisions, then we will have everyone talking about our own hoops-focused super conference that is the envy of basketball coaches and players across the country. Networks will love to cover us. We will become a counter-point to the football super conferences. You can envision the Sports Illustrated article already. We flipped the entire basketball conference structure on its head and made it work with a national, hoops-focused conference that has aligned schools that share long-term interest of making hoops the shining star of their athletic departments.
Hey, where do you want to coach and play hoops? I want to coach and play hoops in the Big East where hoops comes first! Where do you go to watch great hoops? I watch the Big East because that's the conference where hoops rule!
If we keep it as is, we probably do not progress beyond a slightly better version of the old Atlantic-10 conference.
We need to brand this thing and sell it to the world. Let's not get stuck in neutral and stop pushing the boundaries. At least I hope the conference is testing the feasibility of all this.
Gotta believe.
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Post by ColumbiaHeightsHoya on Jan 7, 2015 16:36:40 GMT -5
Ranch, I don't think there are enough viable targets that don't sponsor football to make a go of it and I like the round robin play as it truly represents a legit conference champ without unbalanced schedules. VCU, Wichita State, Dayton, St. Louis, St. Mary's, & Gonzaga are the only remotely viable candidates and would you be lifting the conference profile up by bringing them all in or taking it down?
Unless the have nots start to drop football because of the cost & liability associated with it, I would keep this thing at 10 and keep scheduling the power five in OOC.
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Post by Ranch Dressing on Jan 7, 2015 17:16:47 GMT -5
People forget how the original Big East elevated "fringe" teams with iffy pedigrees like Pittsburgh, Seton Hall, Boston College, and UConn to national prominence.
A new, best-in-class hoops super conference structure will elevate everybody if it is branded and sold the right way.
No need to be rash and expand for expansion sake. But we need to continue exploring growth opportunities at every step. We can't sit idly by. This is our time to make something happen.
A lot of people thought Dick Gavitt was crazy in 1979.
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thebin
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Post by thebin on Jan 7, 2015 18:25:21 GMT -5
Ranch- The thing is we already ARE the hoops conference. In fact, we are the sexiest name in that hoops conference. We ought to be careful of diluting our prominence in that hoops league by creating a "super-conference" full of decent to good but modest programs/markets. Im all for adding two more good programs carefully. But beyond that we start diluting our brand, the league's brand, and destroying the rivalry-building round robin season. No interest at all and in more than 12 teams.
Ironically i think trying to move to 16 teams is actually thinking small. Creating mini divisions where the league no longer is really a single entity has never built a league up. Its just bush.
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hoyainspirit
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Post by hoyainspirit on Jan 7, 2015 19:01:04 GMT -5
I think that somewhere down the road we may need to expand to feed Fox's hunger for programming inventory. I just hope we do it wisely. Personally, I love the true round robin we have currently. Even an expansion to just 12 eliminates that.
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thebin
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Post by thebin on Jan 7, 2015 19:32:46 GMT -5
I think that somewhere down the road we may need to expand to feed Fox's hunger for programming inventory. I just hope we do it wisely. Personally, I love the true round robin we have currently. Even an expansion to just 12 eliminates that. Why? We cant play 11 league games a year? plus 2-3 rivals home and home as gravy.
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hoyainspirit
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Post by hoyainspirit on Jan 7, 2015 20:29:46 GMT -5
I think that somewhere down the road we may need to expand to feed Fox's hunger for programming inventory. I just hope we do it wisely. Personally, I love the true round robin we have currently. Even an expansion to just 12 eliminates that. Why? We cant play 11 league games a year? plus 2-3 rivals home and home as gravy. I don't think that 22 conference games leaves enough out of conference dates. I believe teams can only play 28 games, with participation in an exempt tournament like Atlantis counting as one game. I believe the number is 29 if no tournament. I doubt that teams would want such a small number of OOC dates. I know of no conference which plays more than 18 conference games.
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lichoya68
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Post by lichoya68 on Jan 7, 2015 20:44:29 GMT -5
keep it at ten yup play all home and home series every year just FINE> then play great ooc and tourney games IMO just saying
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Post by michaelgrahmstylie on Jan 7, 2015 21:19:37 GMT -5
I'm in favor of expanding. The Big East is an attractive conference with a serious reputation for banging basketball and great TV exposure. Mark my word, the league will get an influx of top recruits in the next several years. All of the teams will get considerably better. A rising tide floats all boats.
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Post by bigelephant on Jan 8, 2015 0:46:10 GMT -5
Basically RANCH predicated and called for the new BE. what he has to say has a lot of validity. Unfortunately one morning we will wake up READING A COUPLE OF NEW TEAMS WILL HAVE JOINED AND THAT WILL BE THAT, FOX WILL CALLL THE SHOTS BEHIND THE SCENES TO THEIR ADVANTAGE BECAUSE EVERYONE LIKES MONEY AND LIKES MORE MONEY EVEN MORE.
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hoyainspirit
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Post by hoyainspirit on Jan 8, 2015 7:59:39 GMT -5
Basically RANCH predicated and called for the new BE. what he has to say has a lot of validity. Unfortunately one morning we will wake up READING A COUPLE OF NEW TEAMS WILL HAVE JOINED AND THAT WILL BE THAT, FOX WILL CALLL THE SHOTS BEHIND THE SCENES TO THEIR ADVANTAGE BECAUSE EVERYONE LIKES MONEY AND LIKES MORE MONEY EVEN MORE. You're right, bigE. Ranch deserves credit for the new Big East call. He was way ahead of the curve on that.
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Post by HoyaSinceBirth on Jan 8, 2015 8:28:48 GMT -5
I'm in favor of expanding, just not now. I want to wait to see how things shake out a bit. We may be able to land a bigger fish as the AAC gets picked apart.
If we're not waiting and no other concerns matter besides basketball I'd add Gonzaga and VCU. But that's not the world we live in.
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Post by aleutianhoya on Jan 8, 2015 8:48:52 GMT -5
I'm in favor of expanding, just not now. I want to wait to see how things shake out a bit. We may be able to land a bigger fish as the AAC gets picked apart. If we're not waiting and no other concerns matter besides basketball I'd add Gonzaga and VCU. But that's not the world we live in. You're right, of course, Ranch, that the Big East as originally constituted brought semi-moribund programs to respectability and prominence. But the BE of the 1980s needed those teams just to get to 9 members. They were the very best possible members to invite to meet the minimum goal for membership (indeed, originally, Holy Cross and Rutgers were invited in lieu of Pitt). And it took them years to reach prominence. That's not the position we're in now. The risk of adding teams (unless they are clearly prominent -- a la UConn or Gonzaga (which have separate problems with respect to invitation)) outweighs the benefits, in my view. For the country (and TV) to take notice, we need the most possible games to be relevant, which means having the most possible nationally ranked teams. Even if St. Louis and Dayton (to take two examples) are having very good years, if they're not ranked, the country at large doesn't even pay attention as the score passes along the ticker. It's sort of like Xavier playing Butler when both teams are very good but not ranked. Two ranked teams playing (Seton Hall v. Villanova)? That's an event. The more of those "events" you have in a given year, the better it is. I would argue that adding more teams makes us far more likely to be like the A-10 than staying where we are does. That conference has consistently had one or two very good teams, a couple good teams, mostly mediocre teams, and a few very bad teams. It's somewhat similar to the American now. What that does -- as it did for the American last year -- is make the "very good teams" (like UConn) or the "good" teams (like SMU) seem less good, because many of their wins are undervalued. That's not the place we want to be. A ten team league where every game is a war is perfect. Sure, a 12 team league where every game is a war is great, too, but I don't think there are teams out there to do that. Regardless, TV will drive it. We are extraordinarily lucky that FS1 came on the scene at just the right time for us, at a time they were desperate for inventory. The ratings, though, have been abysmal: last year's BET championship game had 702,000 viewers. 2013? 3.4 million. 2012? 2.2 million. Not good. Maybe they won't care. Maybe they will continue to desperately need promotable inventory and maybe these are the ratings they actually are hoping for given what is available. But we need to be sure that the league is best positioned immediately to put its best foot forward. It is this year. It needs to continue.
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DFW HOYA
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Post by DFW HOYA on Jan 8, 2015 9:35:53 GMT -5
You're right, of course, Ranch, that the Big East as originally constituted brought semi-moribund programs to respectability and prominence. But the BE of the 1980s needed those teams just to get to 9 members. They were the very best possible members to invite to meet the minimum goal for membership (indeed, originally, Holy Cross and Rutgers were invited in lieu of Pitt). And it took them years to reach prominence. That's not the position we're in now. Actually, Holy Cross and Rutgers were recruited ahead of Boston College and Seton Hall. Pitt was in the Eastern Eight at the time and was not one of the early targets. Expansion sounds like fun but when you recruit teams instead of programs, trouble follows. Butler sounded great with Brad Stevens...until he left. The Big 12 couldn't miss with West Virginia, could they? Anyone in the Pac-12 want a do-over on Colorado? The Big East doesn't need the Catholic school du jour. When Shaka Smart gets the polite tap on the shoulder from ESPN to move to Penn State or Florida State or some major school, VCU looks more like George Mason South than a national program. St. Louis without Majerus is another generic 17 win team playing Fordham and Bona. Haste makes waste. Wait for the next round of musical chairs when the Jim Delany comes calling at Chapel Hill and Charlottesville. You might be surprised at who starts knocking on Fox's door.
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Elvado
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Post by Elvado on Jan 8, 2015 9:49:01 GMT -5
Could not agree more with DFW here. How can we talk about establishing the new Big East as unique out of one side of our mouths while planning to dilute it out of the other side.
Give this incarnation a few years to grow and breathe and establish itself as the unique attractive commodity it can and should be.
At the time that the original Big East reached its zenith it was in its 6th year of existence and had 9 members.
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Post by ColumbiaHeightsHoya on Jan 8, 2015 10:18:02 GMT -5
DFW, makes sense but I do think Butler, Creighton & Xavier have the program thing down. Butler's former coaches are Stevens, Lickliter, Collier & Matta. Creighton is a program that with some money along with their fan base can attract kids in a state without any other major program (including Nebraska) and Xavier's coaching tree is Gillen, Prosser, Miller & Matta. Those are pretty good hires by Butler & Xavier over long stretches and a higher success rate than Gtown when you factor in Esh. All of those schools have better facilities than we currently do and they have fan bases that sell out their facilities. Now with the Fox money, they should be able to hire and eventually keep the assistants that are lead recruiters that are likely the difference between their big competition.
The old big east lost Va Tech, Miami & BC who were all bottom feeder BBall teams at the time and South Florida was never any good. That iteration also had some mistakes in the expansion department that are far worse then the current version. If you can get an awful (3-0) Depaul program back on track and you give Butler, Creighton and Xavier the time to recruit big east players (Butler still has Horizon league guys on that roster), it will be easier to judge.
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Jack
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Post by Jack on Jan 8, 2015 10:30:58 GMT -5
The old big east lost Va Tech, Miami & BC who were all bottom feeder BBall teams at the time. Being fair, although BC was not one of the historical top 4-5 programs in the Big East, and they have certainly struggled of late, they did go 24-3 and win the regular season conference title in their last year in the conference. At the time you would certainly have preferred to have their basketball program over any of the newcomers the following year with the exception of Louisville, to say nothing of holdovers such as Seton Hall and PC. Even today, BC would be a better addition to the conference than any of the possibilities mentioned other than UCon, although it would never happen for a variety of reasons.
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