Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jan 27, 2015 13:27:35 GMT -5
We have a guard who is the BE player of the year, a string of high-caliber bigs and wings who are blowing up to put around our guards, and a brand new practice facility coming on-line. We're playing a faster tempo and getting out onto the break much more. We have three assistant coaches who are known for their recruiting. I can understand losing out on some of our priority guards in the past but there's no excuse for it moving forward. If we can win a couple games in March we should be one of those hot teams once again and get our pick of the litter. I'm not saying Bracey is a no go because we do need help at the 1/2 positions any way you slice it looking at our roster. But I do think that if we're getting average-level guards in the next few classes, we'll never get program changing players... What makes you think he's average? Maybe not average, but he doesn't strike me as elite either. I'm not enamored with his height-- while his highlights are good, I've also seen him have some trouble finishing at the rim and opposing guards just shoot straight over him from 3. And while his ball handling is superior, I'm not sure how much of an advantage that is in our offense. although we are using penetrations/drives a lot more now than we used to. Then there's his jump shot which is spotty. Look, I don't think he's a bad player and I wouldnt be too disappointed if he ends up here at the end of the day. In fact, I think there's a very good chance he does end up at Gtown, in which case I'll root hard for him. If his coaches say he's a character guy and he can compete at the top level then there are worse things that could happen to the program. Personally, there are just a few other players I think I'd prefer....
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SFHoya99
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Post by SFHoya99 on Jan 27, 2015 16:40:55 GMT -5
If he's a hard worker, he can learn to shoot.
Work ethic is so huge -- I think we've seen that over III's time here. The guys that have had it have made HUGE strides. Those that don't...don't.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 27, 2015 17:19:54 GMT -5
If he's a hard worker, he can learn to shoot. Work ethic is so huge -- I think we've seen that over III's time here. The guys that have had it have made HUGE strides. Those that don't...don't. I've never understood the whole "he can learn to shoot thing" as, in my experience, and from watching others, it's not completely determined by practicing. Sure you can improve your form, follow-through, and rotation but so much of it is just feel and knowing how to get your looks during a game. Practicing can definitely help a lot but it can also be marginally or not at all beneficial. You can't tell me guys like Jerimiah Rivers werent hard workers and never practiced their shot. By all accounts Rivers worked on his shot every day and even hired a shooting instructor but he just didn't have talent in that area. As a great case study, just look at his brother who had the exact same nurture but just happened to be a better shooter. There are tons of other examples of kids at Gtown that worked tremendously, but, for one reason or another, weren't good fits and didn't get the playing time they desired. I'm not saying Bracey will or will not fall into either of these categories -- his experience might be different altogether in ways we haven't imagined -- but I'm just never sold on kids that are poor shooters being automatically coached up. Hell, Reggie Cameron is a good shooter, and he can't even put the ball in the hoop right now. (And he's worked his tail off too to get into better shape.) Doubtless, working hard gives you a better chance to succeed but nothing is guaranteed. So many variables go into becoming a good player, I'm just wary of getting a guy with what I see to be some big question marks in his game. (And feel free to bring this post up in 2 years when Bracey has hit a game winning shot against somebody, but I still think the underlining point is valid.)
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jan 31, 2015 0:12:43 GMT -5
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Post by Deleted on Jan 31, 2015 0:14:26 GMT -5
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Post by Deleted on Feb 1, 2015 16:07:20 GMT -5
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Post by Deleted on Feb 1, 2015 16:33:37 GMT -5
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dense
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Post by dense on Feb 1, 2015 16:36:05 GMT -5
If he's a hard worker, he can learn to shoot. Work ethic is so huge -- I think we've seen that over III's time here. The guys that have had it have made HUGE strides. Those that don't...don't. I've never understood the whole "he can learn to shoot thing" as, in my experience, and from watching others, it's not completely determined by practicing. Sure you can improve your form, follow-through, and rotation but so much of it is just feel and knowing how to get your looks during a game. Practicing can definitely help a lot but it can also be marginally or not at all beneficial. You can't tell me guys like Jerimiah Rivers werent hard workers and never practiced their shot. By all accounts Rivers worked on his shot every day and even hired a shooting instructor but he just didn't have talent in that area. As a great case study, just look at his brother who had the exact same nurture but just happened to be a better shooter. There are tons of other examples of kids at Gtown that worked tremendously, but, for one reason or another, weren't good fits and didn't get the playing time they desired. I'm not saying Bracey will or will not fall into either of these categories -- his experience might be different altogether in ways we haven't imagined -- but I'm just never sold on kids that are poor shooters being automatically coached up. Hell, Reggie Cameron is a good shooter, and he can't even put the ball in the hoop right now. (And he's worked his tail off too to get into better shape.) Doubtless, working hard gives you a better chance to succeed but nothing is guaranteed. So many variables go into becoming a good player, I'm just wary of getting a guy with what I see to be some big question marks in his game. (And feel free to bring this post up in 2 years when Bracey has hit a game winning shot against somebody, but I still think the underlining point is valid.) Just to look at one of your points, guys often practice shooting only to when game time happens their natural instincts take over. So to say see this guy practiced but didn't improve isn't always a correct way of looking at things. Austin Rivers is looked at in the NBA as someone who can't shoot also. Doesn't mean your point is wrong just I've seen that happen where a guy works on his game but totally forgets it once the lights come on in the game.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Feb 2, 2015 1:33:55 GMT -5
I've never understood the whole "he can learn to shoot thing" as, in my experience, and from watching others, it's not completely determined by practicing. Sure you can improve your form, follow-through, and rotation but so much of it is just feel and knowing how to get your looks during a game. Practicing can definitely help a lot but it can also be marginally or not at all beneficial. You can't tell me guys like Jerimiah Rivers werent hard workers and never practiced their shot. By all accounts Rivers worked on his shot every day and even hired a shooting instructor but he just didn't have talent in that area. As a great case study, just look at his brother who had the exact same nurture but just happened to be a better shooter. There are tons of other examples of kids at Gtown that worked tremendously, but, for one reason or another, weren't good fits and didn't get the playing time they desired. I'm not saying Bracey will or will not fall into either of these categories -- his experience might be different altogether in ways we haven't imagined -- but I'm just never sold on kids that are poor shooters being automatically coached up. Hell, Reggie Cameron is a good shooter, and he can't even put the ball in the hoop right now. (And he's worked his tail off too to get into better shape.) Doubtless, working hard gives you a better chance to succeed but nothing is guaranteed. So many variables go into becoming a good player, I'm just wary of getting a guy with what I see to be some big question marks in his game. (And feel free to bring this post up in 2 years when Bracey has hit a game winning shot against somebody, but I still think the underlining point is valid.) Just to look at one of your points, guys often practice shooting only to when game time happens their natural instincts take over. So to say see this guy practiced but didn't improve isn't always a correct way of looking at things. Austin Rivers is looked at in the NBA as someone who can't shoot also. Doesn't mean your point is wrong just I've seen that happen where a guy works on his game but totally forgets it once the lights come on in the game. This is true-- although doesnt that back up my point? All things being equal, don't you want a naturally good shooter that reverts to form under pressure vice somebody how has an inherently bad stroke/feel? I guess I'm just saying I'd be cautious about bad shooters we think can magically transform into knock-down guys with a little bit of practice. (Then again, we've had a bad recent history of recruiting players specifically for their shooting ability only for them to underperform.) And yeah, nobody is calling Austin Rivers Reggie Miller, but the difference between his shooting ability and Jeremiah Rivers' is night and day....
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EasyEd
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Post by EasyEd on Feb 2, 2015 9:07:20 GMT -5
I think Jabril has learned to shoot from outside through hard work and practice.
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Post by thejerseytornado on Feb 2, 2015 10:22:35 GMT -5
I think the problem is that people are speaking in absolutes about learning to shoot instead of in probabilities. That is, players can train and learn a lot of things--shooting mechanics, defensive positioning, blocking out, etc. They're all skills based in muscle memory (and reading the floor). The question is not can it be learned--there are many players who have improved their shooting over time (Otto's 3 pt shooting jumps out as an example, Rondo's improved mid-range jumper also qualifies, though it cost him his FTs oddly). It's easier to do if the form is mostly correct and the amount of change required is small. And there are plenty of players who can't learn to shoot. The question is not whether it's possible to learn to shoot, but rather, whether it's likely, especially compared to other skills for players.
To me, shooting seems more learnable a muscle memory than speeding a player up or becoming a better rebounder. Those seem to have to do with maximizing athletic abilities, and less with learning a new muscle memory. But it's not something that everyone can do. A coach who could identify players with the potential to learn to shoot vs. without that potential could make a killing.
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Talos
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Post by Talos on Feb 2, 2015 11:20:48 GMT -5
I don't think the ability to shoot, or improve your shooting, has to result only from one viewpoint or the other. I think it's a combination of innate hand-eye coordination/natural athleticism combined with proper mechanics/coaching/practice/ability to translate practice to the game. If someone doesn't have at least a certain level of natural ability, all the practice and coaching won't make them a great shooter. I think people assume that if a player's shooting doesn't improve over their 4 years, they must not have been working hard or the coaches failed him. But maybe it's just he doesn't have the hand-eye coordination to put a ball where he wants it on a consistent basis. I think it's very similar to a pitcher who just can't throw strikes. That pitcher may throw 98, be big and strong, have perfect mechanics, great coaching, and a strong work ethic, but that doesn't guarantee he can consistently throw the ball where he wants. Fans may get frustrated with a great athlete who can't seem to learn how to shoot, but it's not as simple a fix as they think.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Feb 2, 2015 11:51:13 GMT -5
As long as there’s nothing wrong with your Shot Mechanics in most cases you can improve your shot… I don’t see anything in Bracey’s Mechanics he cant fix
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Post by Ranch Dressing on Feb 2, 2015 13:34:51 GMT -5
Disagree YaBoy. To my eye, he's got poor form on that jumper that needs a mechanical overhaul. Plus, at his size, he will struggle to get his shot off and defend shots at the next level.
Not drawing any character comparisons, but as a player this guy is similar to Kenny Brunner but a smidge slower. Can a PG like Brunner thrive in a JT3 offense? I have doubts.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Feb 2, 2015 13:48:54 GMT -5
Disagree YaBoy. To my eye, he's got poor form on that jumper that needs a mechanical overhaul. Plus, at his size, he will struggle to get his shot off and defend shots at the next level. Not drawing any character comparisons, but as a player this guy is similar to Kenny Brunner but a smidge slower. Can a PG like Brunner thrive in a JT3 offense? I have doubts. What specifically about his jumper is Broke and in need of a major overhaul in your view?
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Feb 2, 2015 15:08:09 GMT -5
I don't think the ability to shoot, or improve your shooting, has to result only from one viewpoint or the other. I think it's a combination of innate hand-eye coordination/natural athleticism combined with proper mechanics/coaching/practice/ability to translate practice to the game. If someone doesn't have at least a certain level of natural ability, all the practice and coaching won't make them a great shooter. I think people assume that if a player's shooting doesn't improve over their 4 years, they must not have been working hard or the coaches failed him. But maybe it's just he doesn't have the hand-eye coordination to put a ball where he wants it on a consistent basis. I think it's very similar to a pitcher who just can't throw strikes. That pitcher may throw 98, be big and strong, have perfect mechanics, great coaching, and a strong work ethic, but that doesn't guarantee he can consistently throw the ball where he wants. Fans may get frustrated with a great athlete who can't seem to learn how to shoot, but it's not as simple a fix as they think. Yup, agreed. I actually think form is overrated and feel and hand-eye coordination are the most important aspects. Also, just knowing which shots to take (shot selection) is a huge part of raising your percentage. I do think being a smaller player just makes it a little harder from the get-go and allows for offensive players to shoot over you and get good looks a little easier....
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SFHoya99
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Post by SFHoya99 on Feb 2, 2015 15:56:37 GMT -5
If he's a hard worker, he can learn to shoot. Work ethic is so huge -- I think we've seen that over III's time here. The guys that have had it have made HUGE strides. Those that don't...don't. I've never understood the whole "he can learn to shoot thing" as, in my experience, and from watching others, it's not completely determined by practicing. Sure you can improve your form, follow-through, and rotation but so much of it is just feel and knowing how to get your looks during a game. Practicing can definitely help a lot but it can also be marginally or not at all beneficial. You can't tell me guys like Jerimiah Rivers werent hard workers and never practiced their shot. By all accounts Rivers worked on his shot every day and even hired a shooting instructor but he just didn't have talent in that area. As a great case study, just look at his brother who had the exact same nurture but just happened to be a better shooter. There are tons of other examples of kids at Gtown that worked tremendously, but, for one reason or another, weren't good fits and didn't get the playing time they desired. I'm not saying Bracey will or will not fall into either of these categories -- his experience might be different altogether in ways we haven't imagined -- but I'm just never sold on kids that are poor shooters being automatically coached up. Hell, Reggie Cameron is a good shooter, and he can't even put the ball in the hoop right now. (And he's worked his tail off too to get into better shape.) Doubtless, working hard gives you a better chance to succeed but nothing is guaranteed. So many variables go into becoming a good player, I'm just wary of getting a guy with what I see to be some big question marks in his game. (And feel free to bring this post up in 2 years when Bracey has hit a game winning shot against somebody, but I still think the underlining point is valid.) I wanted to clarify here: I don't think that you can take an awful shooter and make them a good one. But I don't think we're talking about that. I think you can improve every part of a players' game with hard work and the right instruction. Even parts that people ascribe purely to athleticism. You can work on jumping higher, better lateral quickness, etc., both through technique adjustment and simply strengthening yourself. But yes, work ethic isn't everything -- no matter how hard I worked, I wasn't going to become an NBA player. There are limits to improvement. That all said, the upside in terms of improvement are these, in order: team play/decision-making; technique (footwork, for example) & skills (shooting); athleticism (unless the people is really out of shape); work ethic. So I'd tend to recruit players who have the basic level of athleticism I am looking for and are hard workers, but maybe aren't the strongest in technique or really know their spots in D.
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Buckets
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Post by Buckets on Feb 2, 2015 16:06:17 GMT -5
I've never understood the whole "he can learn to shoot thing" as, in my experience, and from watching others, it's not completely determined by practicing. Sure you can improve your form, follow-through, and rotation but so much of it is just feel and knowing how to get your looks during a game. Practicing can definitely help a lot but it can also be marginally or not at all beneficial. You can't tell me guys like Jerimiah Rivers werent hard workers and never practiced their shot. By all accounts Rivers worked on his shot every day and even hired a shooting instructor but he just didn't have talent in that area. As a great case study, just look at his brother who had the exact same nurture but just happened to be a better shooter. There are tons of other examples of kids at Gtown that worked tremendously, but, for one reason or another, weren't good fits and didn't get the playing time they desired. I'm not saying Bracey will or will not fall into either of these categories -- his experience might be different altogether in ways we haven't imagined -- but I'm just never sold on kids that are poor shooters being automatically coached up. Hell, Reggie Cameron is a good shooter, and he can't even put the ball in the hoop right now. (And he's worked his tail off too to get into better shape.) Doubtless, working hard gives you a better chance to succeed but nothing is guaranteed. So many variables go into becoming a good player, I'm just wary of getting a guy with what I see to be some big question marks in his game. (And feel free to bring this post up in 2 years when Bracey has hit a game winning shot against somebody, but I still think the underlining point is valid.) I wanted to clarify here: I don't think that you can take an awful shooter and make them a good one. But I don't think we're talking about that. I think you can improve every part of a players' game with hard work and the right instruction. Even parts that people ascribe purely to athleticism. You can work on jumping higher, better lateral quickness, etc., both through technique adjustment and simply strengthening yourself. But yes, work ethic isn't everything -- no matter how hard I worked, I wasn't going to become an NBA player. There are limits to improvement. That all said, the upside in terms of improvement are these, in order: team play/decision-making; technique (footwork, for example) & skills (shooting); athleticism (unless the people is really out of shape); work ethic. So I'd tend to recruit players who have the basic level of athleticism I am looking for and are hard workers, but maybe aren't the strongest in technique or really know their spots in D. Agree with pretty much all of this. The "basic level of athleticism" is why I'm not a huge Cameron fan. Kid can try all he want and so can you and I, none of us is a high-major athlete. The recent counterexample to Jeremiah Rivers is Otto Porter. Unorthodox form and I was Editeded about the shot he took against NC State at the time. By the end of next season, I was okay with pretty much anything he shot inside of 30 feet.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Feb 2, 2015 17:15:28 GMT -5
See this is why I'm lukewarm about Bracey. I'm just not a fan of 5'10" point guards unless you're nate robinson. I think it's just too tough to overcome if you're just an average shooter and although he's quick, i don't see a superior athlete in the videos. I also don't see how his skill-set fits in with our offense....
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Post by daymondmyles on Feb 2, 2015 17:35:13 GMT -5
I love how we debate whether we should take this kid. Yes, ideally I would love to have a quick point guard with great court vision and a great shot. But unless you know any of those coming to Gtown anytime soon, I say trust the staff. Cuz we need a pg badly.
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