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Post by johnnysnowplow on Jan 11, 2015 12:55:07 GMT -5
Bump! The following has to do with several in-game and post-game discussions, but I'll post it here to get back to this thread's question. First, for the record, our starters to date are Josh (@5), Hops (@4), LJ and Jabril (@2&3), and DSR (@1), and that has not changed since the start of the season. Also, let me add that I'm in the group that thinks being a starter is not important when compared to starter-like minutes per game. That said, today's game and how we started got me thinking if that is true. How are we starting? Is the starting lineup putting us ahead or are we playing catch up after the first official time-out? And, finally, if we are playing catch up, shouldn't the starting lineup be "tweaked"? To consider these questions, using the following play-by-play summaries of our 4 BE games so far, please look at the start of each game, specifically from the start to the first official time-out: @ XU: espn.go.com/ncb/playbyplay?gameId=400588398 (first official time-out at 15:49) Crei: espn.go.com/ncb/playbyplay?gameId=400588402 (first official time-out at 15:49) Marq: espn.go.com/ncb/playbyplay?gameId=400588404 (first official time-out at 14:47) @ PC: espn.go.com/ncb/playbyplay?gameId=400588409 (first official time-out at 15:49) In summary, in none of the games are we leading: XU 7, GU 2 CU 5, GU 2 MU 8, GU 8 PC 7, GU 2 What's going on with our starting lineup? MH: 0 made FG, 1 missed layup, 2 missed jumpers, 2 off rb, 3 TOs, 1 blk, 2 PF JS: 2 made layup, 1 missed layup, 2 missed jumpers, 1 made FT, 1 TO, 4 steals, 1 assist, 2 def rb, 1 PF DSR: 1 made 3-pt, 1 missed 3-pt, 2 missed jumpers, 2 blks, 3 def rb, 1 off rb, 1 assist, 1 TO, 1 steal, 1 PF JT: 1 made 3-pt, 3 missed 3-pt, 1 missed jumper, 1 off rb, 1 TO, 1 PF LJ: 2 made jumpers, 2 missed 3-pt, 1 missed layup, 2 assists, 2 TOs Facts: 1. We're are starting very slow, to say the least. 2. So far, we've had to play catch up after the first official time-out. 3. Of our starters, Hopkins is the least productive with 0 points. In fact, he's a negative in offense with 3 missed FGs and 3 TOs. 4. Each of our starters has TO at least once, with Hopkins at 3 TOs. 5. DSR has only 4 shots total in those four games. Conclusions: 1. Tweak the starting lineup. It cannot get worse. 2. Offensively, Hops is hurting us at the 4. The notion that he somehow is not productive offensively because he is not played in his "natural" 4 position is debunked. He clearly is not a productive offensive 4. Play him only as a backup 5. He will get plenty of minutes there and we need him to be available (not in foul trouble). 3. We are not doing a good job of protecting the ball at the beginning of games. We need to value/protect the ball better than we have so far. 4. Josh should fight for position closer to the basket and his teammates need to feed him once there so that he does not have to shoot short jumpers. If he's not close to the basket, he should consider passing out and repositioning. 4. Josh's numbers are very good. He needs to be careful with fouls because he's too important. The 4 steals are tremendous, but be careful not to foul. 5. DSR needs to shoot more before the first official time-out. If he cannot create the shots, then JT3 needs to design plays for him and he needs to shoot when open. Starting lineup is meaningless. It only matters who finishes. The minutes end up going to the better players regardless. Blah blah blah. Let's think for a second about what's being said here. I think it has some merit. 5-2 and 7-2 are far from disastrous or insurmountable, but they're deficits nonetheless. We are not starting the game well, as detailed above. Instead of hamstringing ourselves every game, maybe shaking up the starting lineup could be beneficial. I get that Hopkins deserves to hear his name announced and all that for being a senior and dedicating 4 years of hard work to the program. Fine, I'm ok with that. Let Smith come off the bench then. Has he really earned the privilege of starting above everyone else? I would argue not. Smith and Hop on the floor together doesn't really work. They both foul too much and they both turn it over too much (yes, Smith can be a TO machine at times, even if he has offensive skill). With one of them coming off the bench, at least it limits the chances that they BOTH end up with early foul trouble and we have to see Hayes play extended minutes at a critical juncture. With PW in the starting lineup, it gives us a better chance to spread the floor, take care of the ball, and keep our bigs out of foul trouble. Plus it might be beneficial to bring Smith into the game when the other team has started making subs and their bigs have already spent some of their energy. Who the hell wants to defend a fresh Josh Smith when they've already played 8 minutes? Or they've got subs in the game? Obviously this isn't gonna solve all our problems, but maybe it helps us get out of the gates a little quicker. And this way, instead of trying to force the ball to Josh early in the game, maybe DSR gets off to some better starts being the #1 option at the outset. Help him break out of his funk a bit. And while we're at it, maybe starting Bowen over Peak would help too. Bowen has dedicated what seems like 12 years to this program. Peak has been pretty ineffective and inconsistent since we started playing real teams. Let Bowen hear his name announced and maybe coming off the bench would help give LJ a fresh perspective on the game. Because right now he's stagnating. DSR, Jabril, Bowen, PW, Hopkins. Smith and Peak off the bench first (co-6th man kind of thing). We're halfway through the season and the team is underwhelming. Shake it up a bit.
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SFHoya99
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Post by SFHoya99 on Jan 11, 2015 13:11:53 GMT -5
What has Smith done to start? How about be our second best player at worst? Isn't that how you earn a starting spot?
Yes, let's play players according to seniority. I mean, we can do that, if we want to lose more games. When will people just simply admit that Hopkins is terrible at basketball? He's not the best rebounder on the team -- for all the talk of how they get their rebounds, Smith simply gets more on both offense and defense. He's not a better player than Paul White. His defense is highly overrated by many on this board -- he gets blocks and once a while he's great against the perfect match-up.
It's time to move him to the backup center spot and ONLY that. It's past time. And he should share some time with Hayes there.
You earn time by being better. Not by being around longer. (and if Hopkins worked so damn hard, he'd be a better player.)
All apologies if your post was sarcastic.
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Post by johnnysnowplow on Jan 11, 2015 13:51:57 GMT -5
Nowhere did I say I want Smith to get less time or Hopkins to get more time. Nor did I advocate distributing minutes based on seniority. And I actually specifically stated I'm trying to avoid Hayes having to play. The suggestion was merely that changing the starting lineup might help us come out a little quicker and not dig holes in the first 4 minutes. And maybe help us keep our big guys out of early foul trouble. Don't think it's nearly as ridiculous as you're making it out to be. You want to start Smith instead of Hopkins? Fine, I don't care. I don't like Hopkins either. Clearly he's only in the starting lineup now because he's a senior. There can't possibly be any other reason, right? So working under that premise, I merely suggested a way to keep him in there and still shake things up. Davante Gardner was easily one of Marquette's two best players the last couple years and he came off the bench but still played starter's minutes. He was a great offensive talent and a liability defensively. There's a lot of similarities to Smith.
But by all means, let's keep doing the same thing that isn't working.
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SFHoya99
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Post by SFHoya99 on Jan 11, 2015 14:17:15 GMT -5
Nowhere did I say I want Smith to get less time or Hopkins to get more time. Nor did I advocate distributing minutes based on seniority. And I actually specifically stated I'm trying to avoid Hayes having to play. The suggestion was merely that changing the starting lineup might help us come out a little quicker and not dig holes in the first 4 minutes. And maybe help us keep our big guys out of early foul trouble. Don't think it's nearly as ridiculous as you're making it out to be. You want to start Smith instead of Hopkins? Fine, I don't care. I don't like Hopkins either. Clearly he's only in the starting lineup now because he's a senior. There can't possibly be any other reason, right? So working under that premise, I merely suggested a way to keep him in there and still shake things up. Davante Gardner was easily one of Marquette's two best players the last couple years and he came off the bench but still played starter's minutes. He was a great offensive talent and a liability defensively. There's a lot of similarities to Smith. But by all means, let's keep doing the same thing that isn't working. At this point, we simply need to minimize Hopkins' minutes. He got outplayed by Hayes against Providence, of all things. I agree with you there's no reason to ever play Hopkins and Smith together, but at this point I'd even given Hayes some of Hopkins' minutes. I can't stand the idea of Hopkins starting over Smith for a variety of reasons, but one big one is that we always try to throw it in early. That'll be 2-3 turnovers quickly to put us behind the 8 ball again.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jan 11, 2015 14:25:07 GMT -5
Nowhere did I say I want Smith to get less time or Hopkins to get more time. Nor did I advocate distributing minutes based on seniority. And I actually specifically stated I'm trying to avoid Hayes having to play. The suggestion was merely that changing the starting lineup might help us come out a little quicker and not dig holes in the first 4 minutes. And maybe help us keep our big guys out of early foul trouble. Don't think it's nearly as ridiculous as you're making it out to be. You want to start Smith instead of Hopkins? Fine, I don't care. I don't like Hopkins either. Clearly he's only in the starting lineup now because he's a senior. There can't possibly be any other reason, right? So working under that premise, I merely suggested a way to keep him in there and still shake things up. Davante Gardner was easily one of Marquette's two best players the last couple years and he came off the bench but still played starter's minutes. He was a great offensive talent and a liability defensively. There's a lot of similarities to Smith. But by all means, let's keep doing the same thing that isn't working. At this point, we simply need to minimize Hopkins' minutes. He got outplayed by Hayes against Providence, of all things. I agree with you there's no reason to ever play Hopkins and Smith together, but at this point I'd even given Hayes some of Hopkins' minutes. I can't stand the idea of Hopkins starting over Smith for a variety of reasons, but one big one is that we always try to throw it in early. That'll be 2-3 turnovers quickly to put us behind the 8 ball again. If Josh smith plays 28 minutes a game, Hop and Hayes should battle for the remaining 12. That's it though. I'd prefer White and Copeland share all of the minutes at the 4. I'd rather they miss a couple rebounds because they are undersized to Hop being in there and deflating the entire team because he can't hit a layup or a free throw. Besides, if we play zone, White and Copeland will be pretty protected against size mismatches and they'd pose their own matchup problems for a bigger guy....
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Post by bicentennial on Jan 11, 2015 14:33:49 GMT -5
While I believe JTIII plays the players he thinks give him the best chance of winning games, after a 0/6 free throw performance it would make great sense to send a message to Hopkins that doing that is unacceptable. Start White at power forward and bring Hopkins in off the bench when Smith gets tired or picks up fouls. While I agree in years past Hopkins seemed to do better playing power forward, I have seen nothing this year to suggest he has any offense at all whether in at the 4 or the 5. I truly wonder how and why he has regressed so much!
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EtomicB
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Post by EtomicB on Jan 11, 2015 15:48:13 GMT -5
Nowhere did I say I want Smith to get less time or Hopkins to get more time. Nor did I advocate distributing minutes based on seniority. And I actually specifically stated I'm trying to avoid Hayes having to play. The suggestion was merely that changing the starting lineup might help us come out a little quicker and not dig holes in the first 4 minutes. And maybe help us keep our big guys out of early foul trouble. Don't think it's nearly as ridiculous as you're making it out to be. You want to start Smith instead of Hopkins? Fine, I don't care. I don't like Hopkins either. Clearly he's only in the starting lineup now because he's a senior. There can't possibly be any other reason, right? So working under that premise, I merely suggested a way to keep him in there and still shake things up. Davante Gardner was easily one of Marquette's two best players the last couple years and he came off the bench but still played starter's minutes. He was a great offensive talent and a liability defensively. There's a lot of similarities to Smith. But by all means, let's keep doing the same thing that isn't working. Smith played very well yesterday but he only played 21 minutes which is not far off his 22.1 mpg average.. He's no where near the 25-28 we'd all like to see him playing.. I like the idea of Smith coming off the bench Snowplow, I asked this very question after the Creighton game in fact.. He's come off the bench in the 2nd half of two games this season and the team went on nice runs both times.. He'll obviously improve the bench scoring which the team needs but just as important it breaks up him & Hopkins.. Is it really that crazy to bring him off the bench?
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rockhoya
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Post by rockhoya on Jan 11, 2015 16:02:43 GMT -5
Nowhere did I say I want Smith to get less time or Hopkins to get more time. Nor did I advocate distributing minutes based on seniority. And I actually specifically stated I'm trying to avoid Hayes having to play. The suggestion was merely that changing the starting lineup might help us come out a little quicker and not dig holes in the first 4 minutes. And maybe help us keep our big guys out of early foul trouble. Don't think it's nearly as ridiculous as you're making it out to be. You want to start Smith instead of Hopkins? Fine, I don't care. I don't like Hopkins either. Clearly he's only in the starting lineup now because he's a senior. There can't possibly be any other reason, right? So working under that premise, I merely suggested a way to keep him in there and still shake things up. Davante Gardner was easily one of Marquette's two best players the last couple years and he came off the bench but still played starter's minutes. He was a great offensive talent and a liability defensively. There's a lot of similarities to Smith. But by all means, let's keep doing the same thing that isn't working. Smith played very well yesterday but he only played 21 minutes which is not far off his 22.1 mpg average.. He's no where near the 25-28 we'd all like to see him playing.. I like the idea of Smith coming off the bench Snowplow, I asked this very question after the Creighton game in fact.. He's come off the bench in the 2nd half of two games this season and the team went on nice runs both times.. He'll obviously improve the bench scoring which the team needs but just as important it breaks up him & Hopkins.. Is it really that crazy to bring him off the bench? I mean, he's debatably our best player....no need to bring him off the bench. Move Hop to the bench because he plays much better in a smaller, less athletic lineup.
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Post by professorhoya on Jan 11, 2015 16:06:23 GMT -5
Nowhere did I say I want Smith to get less time or Hopkins to get more time. Nor did I advocate distributing minutes based on seniority. And I actually specifically stated I'm trying to avoid Hayes having to play. The suggestion was merely that changing the starting lineup might help us come out a little quicker and not dig holes in the first 4 minutes. And maybe help us keep our big guys out of early foul trouble. Don't think it's nearly as ridiculous as you're making it out to be. You want to start Smith instead of Hopkins? Fine, I don't care. I don't like Hopkins either. Clearly he's only in the starting lineup now because he's a senior. There can't possibly be any other reason, right? So working under that premise, I merely suggested a way to keep him in there and still shake things up. Davante Gardner was easily one of Marquette's two best players the last couple years and he came off the bench but still played starter's minutes. He was a great offensive talent and a liability defensively. There's a lot of similarities to Smith. But by all means, let's keep doing the same thing that isn't working. At this point, we simply need to minimize Hopkins' minutes. He got outplayed by Hayes against Providence, of all things. I agree with you there's no reason to ever play Hopkins and Smith together, but at this point I'd even given Hayes some of Hopkins' minutes. I can't stand the idea of Hopkins starting over Smith for a variety of reasons, but one big one is that we always try to throw it in early. That'll be 2-3 turnovers quickly to put us behind the 8 ball again. No, he didn't. Hayes is absolutely awful and a non factor on both ends of the floor. As bad as Hopkins was at the line and on offense, he was the reason we were still in the game on defense. Providence is very long and athletic and Hopkins was a monster in shutting down their half court sets to the point where Cooley told them to avoid half court and just try to run. I don't even like Hopkins, never have since I saw him as a freshman but his rim protecting defense has been exceptional this year and we don't really have another rim protector.
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Post by professorhoya on Jan 11, 2015 16:09:18 GMT -5
While I believe JTIII plays the players he thinks give him the best chance of winning games, after a 0/6 free throw performance it would make great sense to send a message to Hopkins that doing that is unacceptable. Start White at power forward and bring Hopkins in off the bench when Smith gets tired or picks up fouls. While I agree in years past Hopkins seemed to do better playing power forward, I have seen nothing this year to suggest he has any offense at all whether in at the 4 or the 5. I truly wonder how and why he has regressed so much! He's never really had any offense to begin with. I prefer this years Hopkins because he isn't looking to shoot or take the ball from the free throw line and shoot an air ball or drive and fumble it away. People didn't notice how bad Hopkins was on offense last year because they were too busy bullying Lubick. Now that Lubick is gone Hopkins is the new target.
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EtomicB
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Post by EtomicB on Jan 11, 2015 16:28:36 GMT -5
Smith played very well yesterday but he only played 21 minutes which is not far off his 22.1 mpg average.. He's no where near the 25-28 we'd all like to see him playing.. I like the idea of Smith coming off the bench Snowplow, I asked this very question after the Creighton game in fact.. He's come off the bench in the 2nd half of two games this season and the team went on nice runs both times.. He'll obviously improve the bench scoring which the team needs but just as important it breaks up him & Hopkins.. Is it really that crazy to bring him off the bench? I mean, he's debatably our best player....no need to bring him off the bench. Move Hop to the bench because he plays much better in a smaller, less athletic lineup. How do you figure that? Again Smith has proven twice that he can come off the bench and positively affect a game, Hopkins hasn't... Plus this team could use some offensive fire power off the bench.. As JohnnySnowplow pointed out Gardner from Marquette was arguably their best player and he always came off the bench.. What's the difference?
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SFHoya99
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Post by SFHoya99 on Jan 11, 2015 16:36:13 GMT -5
At this point, we simply need to minimize Hopkins' minutes. He got outplayed by Hayes against Providence, of all things. I agree with you there's no reason to ever play Hopkins and Smith together, but at this point I'd even given Hayes some of Hopkins' minutes. I can't stand the idea of Hopkins starting over Smith for a variety of reasons, but one big one is that we always try to throw it in early. That'll be 2-3 turnovers quickly to put us behind the 8 ball again. No, he didn't. Hayes is absolutely awful and a non factor on both ends of the floor. As bad as Hopkins was at the line and on offense, he was the reason we were still in the game on defense. Providence is very long and athletic and Hopkins was a monster in shutting down their half court sets to the point where Cooley told them to avoid half court and just try to run. I don't even like Hopkins, never have since I saw him as a freshman but his rim protecting defense has been exceptional this year and we don't really have another rim protector. No, he really did. I don't necessarily think he will outplay him every game, but he was fine on defense, sunk the only shot that DSR set up for him and generally held his own. His lack of rebounding is his huge issue. I know he looks clunky on D but the three inches he has on Hopkins help make up for that. Hopkins was awful yesterday. He was Providence's MVP. I outplayed him from my couch. He wasn't anything close to the "reason we were still in the game on defense." This is the generic "Hopkins defense" response, but the dude didn't play most of the first half, committed two fouls and two goaltends and we still stuck with Providence despite sucking on O.
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rockhoya
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Post by rockhoya on Jan 11, 2015 16:36:35 GMT -5
I mean, he's debatably our best player....no need to bring him off the bench. Move Hop to the bench because he plays much better in a smaller, less athletic lineup. How do you figure that? Again Smith has proven twice that he can come off the bench and positively affect a game, Hopkins hasn't... Plus this team could use some offensive fire power off the bench.. As JohnnySnowplow pointed out Gardner from Marquette was arguably their best player and he always came off the bench.. What's the difference? I figure that because he's played much better in smaller lineups than he has alongside Smith for the most part. That's not really debatable. And the Gardner situation was different. Josh is our most aggressive offensive player at this point and Gardner had Vander Blue to rely on, plus his supportin cast was much more trigger confident. But the bottom line is they are two completely different teams and who cares what Marquette did? What exactly do they have to show for that strategy?
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njhoya78
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Post by njhoya78 on Jan 11, 2015 16:37:02 GMT -5
Well, if having firepower to come off of the bench is what you are looking for, why not have DSR not start and instead come off the bench?
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rockhoya
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Post by rockhoya on Jan 11, 2015 16:37:33 GMT -5
No, he didn't. Hayes is absolutely awful and a non factor on both ends of the floor. As bad as Hopkins was at the line and on offense, he was the reason we were still in the game on defense. Providence is very long and athletic and Hopkins was a monster in shutting down their half court sets to the point where Cooley told them to avoid half court and just try to run. I don't even like Hopkins, never have since I saw him as a freshman but his rim protecting defense has been exceptional this year and we don't really have another rim protector. No, he really did. I don't necessarily think he will outplay him every game, but he was fine on defense, sunk the only shot that DSR set up for him and generally held his own. His lack of rebounding is his huge issue. I know he looks clunky on D but the three inches he has on Hopkins help make up for that. Hopkins was awful yesterday. He was Providence's MVP. I outplayed him from my couch. He wasn't anything close to the "reason we were still in the game on defense." This is the generic "Hopkins defense" response, but the dude didn't play most of the first half, committed two fouls and two goaltends and we still stuck with Providence despite sucking on O. The three inches he has on Hop don't make up for anything when he plays like he's half the size of Hop..... And if I'm not mistaken you just disproved your own point to an extent. He didn't play as much in the first half and we were struggling to keep up. When he played in the second half (and Hayes did not) we gave up much less on defense and we were at least in control of the game for a while (till Hop started missing from the line). We lose by at least 5 if he doesn't make that last defensive play and we don't have a chance to tie it up. It's not just your "generic Hop defense"....he actually plays D and competes and offers skills that not one other person on this roster has shown to be able to replicate and Hayes may be 7 feet (if even) but he plays like he's 6'6, point blank period.
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SFHoya99
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Post by SFHoya99 on Jan 11, 2015 16:38:03 GMT -5
I mean, he's debatably our best player....no need to bring him off the bench. Move Hop to the bench because he plays much better in a smaller, less athletic lineup. How do you figure that? Again Smith has proven twice that he can come off the bench and positively affect a game, Hopkins hasn't... Plus this team could use some offensive fire power off the bench.. As JohnnySnowplow pointed out Gardner from Marquette was arguably their best player and he always came off the bench.. What's the difference? The difference is we should only play Hopkins because we have to. If Smith can play 30, he should play 30. Starting with five minutes of suck isn't a great strategy in any sense.
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SFHoya99
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Post by SFHoya99 on Jan 11, 2015 16:38:59 GMT -5
No, he really did. I don't necessarily think he will outplay him every game, but he was fine on defense, sunk the only shot that DSR set up for him and generally held his own. His lack of rebounding is his huge issue. I know he looks clunky on D but the three inches he has on Hopkins help make up for that. Hopkins was awful yesterday. He was Providence's MVP. I outplayed him from my couch. He wasn't anything close to the "reason we were still in the game on defense." This is the generic "Hopkins defense" response, but the dude didn't play most of the first half, committed two fouls and two goaltends and we still stuck with Providence despite sucking on O. The three inches he has on Hop don't make up for anything when he plays like he's half the size of Hop..... I have no idea what you mean by this. Hayes was fine keeping people away from the rim.
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rockhoya
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Post by rockhoya on Jan 11, 2015 16:46:18 GMT -5
The three inches he has on Hop don't make up for anything when he plays like he's half the size of Hop..... I have no idea what you mean by this. Hayes was fine keeping people away from the rim. He doesn't contest shots or alter them like he's a post player and he doesn't rebound like he's a post, he's not quick off the floor and he doesn't box out well because he's too weak. He plays small, his hands are often at his waist and he presents no height advantages despite his height being his only positive. Don't get me wrong, I want him to play well and succeed but I'd rather have Jabril in the post at that point. And no I'm not kidding, Hayes is just way too soft right now and he plays small. Hop may be shorter than him, but he plays like he's the taller of the two..
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EtomicB
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Post by EtomicB on Jan 11, 2015 16:48:22 GMT -5
Well, if having firepower to come off of the bench is what you are looking for, why not have DSR not start and instead come off the bench? Really NJ? Ok, I'll play.. I'd continue to start DSR because he plays well with any other guard, forward or center on the team.. Smith & Hopkins do not play well together.. Do you disagree the team could use an offensive punch off the bench?
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rockhoya
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Post by rockhoya on Jan 11, 2015 16:51:27 GMT -5
Well, if having firepower to come off of the bench is what you are looking for, why not have DSR not start and instead come off the bench? Really NJ? Ok, I'll play.. I'd continue to start DSR because he plays well with any other guard, forward or center on the team.. Smith & Hopkins do not play well together.. Do you disagree the team could use an offensive punch off the bench? Yeah, but that's what Paul White and Bowen and them are for. Josh is limited in his rotation more by his fouling at this point. I see what you're trying to say, but we can't really afford to start games with 5 players who are each unwilling to take shots or impose their offensive will. The problem has been with us starting slowly.
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