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Post by indianhoop on Nov 16, 2014 15:16:02 GMT -5
RusskyHoya did "nail it" imo....I'd argue that that was essentially where/how Fr Brooks wanted HC football to exist ultimately.
In theory, there's nothing wrong with this line of thinking. College football becomes more of a cesspool each Autumn. In practice/reality, in 2014 and moving forward though, it's going to be harder and harder to accomplish this i.e. stay in the PL and play 3 or 4 Ivies (particularly H/Y/P) every year without winning 1 or 2 games every season ad infinitum.
I don't have the answer for GTown....hell, I don't have the answer for HC. But the football situation at GTown as it exists today seems untenable unless the school is sanguine with losing to most of the PL schools, Harvard, Yale and Princeton nearly every year moving forward.
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Post by puppydog100 on Nov 16, 2014 16:42:26 GMT -5
Thanks guys, now I understand the plan.
Field a team, lose every game. We could be everyone's Homecoming opponent, guarantee a win for the alums.
Why didn't I think of that.
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Post by strummer8526 on Nov 16, 2014 20:36:30 GMT -5
I appreciate the insight, Rusky, even if I find the "plan" to be a disappointing one. So there it is...we are what we are. And so I'll repeat my initial point with one qualifier: Calling us "mediocre" is an insult to mediocrity and that's the way our University wants it.
To be candid, I don't particularly care if we stink at football because, like I said, I don't love football or have much invested in it. I do care about Georgetown as a whole, though, and I think it's important that we be candid about our current situation.
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DFW HOYA
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Post by DFW HOYA on Nov 16, 2014 22:13:05 GMT -5
I'll repeat the question: what kind of program do people want?
Georgetown can have a Davidson-level program and go 9-2 against schools many of you have never heard of. Is that what people want? Conversely, Georgetown can invest in a full scholarship program and go 2-9, too. As discussed before, the University is still running Bob Benson's playbook from 1993 when it comes to program direction.
Bottom line, if the fan base doesn't have any expectations for the future, how can we expect the monolithic Georgetown bureaucracy to be any different? If you don't know where you want to go, you'll never get there.
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Post by Problem of Dog on Nov 16, 2014 22:48:13 GMT -5
I'll repeat the question: what kind of program do people want? Georgetown can have a Davidson-level program and go 9-2 against schools many of you have never heard of. Is that what people want? Conversely, Georgetown can invest in a full scholarship program and go 2-9, too. As discussed before, the University is still running Bob Benson's playbook from 1993 when it comes to program direction. Bottom line, if the fan base doesn't have any expectations for the future, how can we expect the monolithic Georgetown bureaucracy to be any different? If you don't know where you want to go, you'll never get there. Again, no it can't. Not in reality. So stop trying to present this as one of the extreme poles in your potential options.
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DFW HOYA
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Post by DFW HOYA on Nov 16, 2014 23:00:37 GMT -5
Again, no it can't. Not in reality. So stop trying to present this as one of the extreme poles in your potential options. That's actually the Pioneer League option and we can agree that's not an option Georgetown is interested in.
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RusskyHoya
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Post by RusskyHoya on Nov 17, 2014 0:14:44 GMT -5
RusskyHoya, no one is saying the GU should become Fordham or North Dakota State. You’re the one who brought up Fordham in the context of “making a commitment to football has yielded Top 10 FCS status.” My rejoinder is that Georgetown’s administration does not give a flying f*** about Top 10 FCS status. However, we are not Yale, Princeton or Harvard either. "We are Georgetown!!!" And a quick glance at those institutions’ endowments will quickly reveal why each of them are where they are, institutionally speaking. There is no reason that Georgetown cannot be the outstanding educational institution that it is, and also have a respectable, competitive football program. This is the most interesting claim/question here. What level of resource expenditure would it really take to field “a respectable, competitive football program” at Georgetown? Could the University do so without negative impacts to “the outstanding educational institution that it is”? To a great extent, we are limited by data deficits here – there are no readily available, definitive answers. We can, however, do some estimation and thought experiments to get a sense of the contours of the situation. NCAA D-I FCS caps scholarships at 63, a level that most of the ‘competitive’ programs have attained. At Georgetown, an endowed scholarship runs you right around $1 million. I think we are all in agreement that Georgetown football does not have $63,000,000 in commitments that it can readily secure in a short-to-medium amount of time. I think we can also agree that $63 million, or even a substantial fraction of that, is an amount that would indeed have a significant impact on other University priorities. We can therefore expect that a significant zero-sum allocation of general University funds towards football is likely to draw significant opposition and controversy. Finally, we have existing athletics dollars. Any move toward scholarships will doubtless require the reallocation of funds currently assigned to existing sports. Given Title IX, we’re talking specifically about men’s sports. So, having said all that, we appear to have a good sense of the contours of what sacrifices and tradeoffs the University would have to make to go scholarship in FCS football. Is the University willing to allocate millions of general purpose dollars, kneecap multiple men’s sports, and prioritize football competitive advantage over all other considerations – all for a chance (by no means a certainty, but merely a chance) at FCS success? I think the answer is self-evidently and indisputably “no.” The Patriot League is Division 1-AA football, not the Pop Warner League were the kids play to have a good time, the score doesn't matter, and everyone wins a trophy at the end of the season for their participation. Sure… but, to be honest, Ivy League football has more in common with Pop Warner than it does with competitive D-I college football. There’s not a lot of indigestion among the Ancient Eight over their competitive standing in the college football landscape. There’s not exactly a ton of worry in Morningside Heights over the fact their team has been a perennial doormat for as long as memory serves. No, the Ivy programs are entirely subsumed to the goals and needs of their respective institutions. So it is at Georgetown. Fordham's tenure in the Patriot League will only continue until such time that they find greener pastures, and they are actively working on that. Georgetown's continued participation in Patriot League football is also questionable. The Patriot League, and Georgetown, are going to have to make some tough decisions in the very near term. That you can take to the bank. Georgetown already made its decision a long time ago. Whether it was a tough one or not depends on how much emphasis you put on winning in the near-to-medium future. Georgetown does not rate it highly at all – and so it was not all that tough of a decision. I’m sure there are many, many things that keep Jack DeGioia up at night. Our football team’s standing within the FCS competitive landscape is not one of them.
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RusskyHoya
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Post by RusskyHoya on Nov 17, 2014 0:32:46 GMT -5
RusskyHoya did "nail it" imo....I'd argue that that was essentially where/how Fr Brooks wanted HC football to exist ultimately. In theory, there's nothing wrong with this line of thinking. College football becomes more of a cesspool each Autumn. In practice/reality, in 2014 and moving forward though, it's going to be harder and harder to accomplish this i.e. stay in the PL and play 3 or 4 Ivies (particularly H/Y/P) every year without winning 1 or 2 games every season ad infinitum. I don't have the answer for GTown....hell, I don't have the answer for HC. But the football situation at GTown as it exists today seems untenable unless the school is sanguine with losing to most of the PL schools, Harvard, Yale and Princeton nearly every year moving forward. "Sanguine" isn't quite the right word... but willing to live with it? Absolutely! As it is, Georgetown could probably pick off Columbia and some of the other weaker Ivies now. They shut down Brown this year, far out-performing their showing against Brown at the MSF 'debut' in 2005. They won at Princeton - on national TV, no less - a couple of years ago. They've even played Yale plenty close several times in the last decade. All that under the gaping competitive disadvantage that exists now. Now imagine those same matchups when Georgetown has the Thompson Athletics Center, a build-out MSF, and two dozen more scholarship equivalencies. The competitive balance looks a bit different then. The Patriot League teams will press forward, of course, and both Georgetown and the Ivies will find it tough going to keep up with them, competitively. On the other hand, there are diminishing relative returns there as well. Georgetown non-scholarship and limited-scholarship teams have managed to hold their own against many scholarship teams over the years, much as the Ivies have. It's tougher to do that in football... but, again, the expectations and measures of success are quite different. Btw, congrats on the hoops victory over Harvard! A triumph to cherish up on the hill in Worcester. Fr. Brooks would be proud
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Post by Problem of Dog on Nov 17, 2014 0:56:12 GMT -5
RusskyHoya did "nail it" imo....I'd argue that that was essentially where/how Fr Brooks wanted HC football to exist ultimately. In theory, there's nothing wrong with this line of thinking. College football becomes more of a cesspool each Autumn. In practice/reality, in 2014 and moving forward though, it's going to be harder and harder to accomplish this i.e. stay in the PL and play 3 or 4 Ivies (particularly H/Y/P) every year without winning 1 or 2 games every season ad infinitum. I don't have the answer for GTown....hell, I don't have the answer for HC. But the football situation at GTown as it exists today seems untenable unless the school is sanguine with losing to most of the PL schools, Harvard, Yale and Princeton nearly every year moving forward. "Sanguine" isn't quite the right word... but willing to live with it? Absolutely! As it is, Georgetown could probably pick off Columbia and some of the other weaker Ivies now. They shut down Brown this year, far out-performing their showing against Brown at the MSF 'debut' in 2005. They won at Princeton - on national TV, no less - a couple of years ago. They've even played Yale plenty close several times in the last decade. All that under the gaping competitive disadvantage that exists now. Now imagine those same matchups when Georgetown has the Thompson Athletics Center, a build-out MSF, and two dozen more scholarship equivalencies. The competitive balance looks a bit different then. The Patriot League teams will press forward, of course, and both Georgetown and the Ivies will find it tough going to keep up with them, competitively. On the other hand, there are diminishing relative returns there as well. Georgetown non-scholarship and limited-scholarship teams have managed to hold their own against many scholarship teams over the years, much as the Ivies have. It's tougher to do that in football... but, again, the expectations and measures of success are quite different. Btw, congrats on the hoops victory over Harvard! A triumph to cherish up on the hill in Worcester. Fr. Brooks would be proud Two dozen more equivalencies? Where are those coming from?
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RusskyHoya
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Post by RusskyHoya on Nov 17, 2014 1:15:08 GMT -5
Two dozen more equivalencies? Where are those coming from? Yea, it's a fair point. Theoretically, as general student financial aid continues to improve, it frees up more and more dollars for equivalencies/buying out players' loans, even if the actual level of funding for that purpose remains relatively flat.
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Post by guvoicesports on Nov 17, 2014 1:21:01 GMT -5
As the person who conducted this interview for the Voice, and is very concerned about Georgetown football as well, what future questions would people want asked if given the opportunity again?
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Post by puppydog100 on Nov 17, 2014 8:28:07 GMT -5
guvoicesports, how about The Voice holding a town hall type meeting. Students, alums, donors, etc. can attend.
DeGiora, Reed and company can present their vision of footballs future, those in attendance can ask questions. I doubt they would accept your invitation to attend and present.
Let's get it all out on the table once and for all.
If there's a cost, I would be pleased to foot the bill.
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cheer48
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Post by cheer48 on Nov 17, 2014 11:56:35 GMT -5
Hate to repeat but I shall......playing vrs Patriots and Ivys is a great place to be for an institution such as we are and should clearly remain.......please, powers who are, make those few minor adjustments that will make us reasonably competitive.......forget the Ram, they are obviously heading in a different direction......I personally believe that instead of allowing them " to withdraw " from this our good situation, a good swift boot in the a.. is indicated.....Ram you are no longer welcome !
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Post by Problem of Dog on Nov 17, 2014 13:22:34 GMT -5
Hate to repeat but I shall......playing vrs Patriots and Ivys is a great place to be for an institution such as we are and should clearly remain.......please, powers who are, make those few minor adjustments that will make us reasonably competitive.......forget the Ram, they are obviously heading in a different direction......I personally believe that instead of allowing them " to withdraw " from this our good situation, a good swift boot in the a.. is indicated.....Ram you are no longer welcome ! A little late on this one. The rest of the league already decided on this and they decided to move with Fordham in that direction.
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Post by indianhoop on Nov 17, 2014 13:39:42 GMT -5
Not to sidetrack the convo, but I really doubt FU is leaving the PL football-wise. They really don't have the facilities (or following and a myriad of other reasons) to join the CAA in football, which is really their only other option to upgrade at the FCS-level.
These past two seasons of FU football were sort of a "lightning in a bottle" situation for them. They had a 2 year head-start on scholarships as well as some very timely FBS transfers (Nebrich, T Jones Jr etc) to separate themselves from the rest of the PL.
They won't dominate next year (particularly if Nebrich doesn't come back....possibility exists that he might) as they graduate a lot (about 17 or 18) of Senior starters on both sides.
I think starting next season though, may be where you start seeing "GTown and everyone else in the PL"....even moreso than this or past seasons. All the schools struggled a bit with the scholly transition this season (save for maybe Bucknell). Rosters were half scholly/half fin. aid....led to discord on some rosters. Next year you're going to see most PL teams being much more scholarship-laden and I think somewhat stronger in total. Long story short, it's going to start getting harder for Hoya football week to week moving forward, not easier.
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Post by HoyaSinceBirth on Nov 17, 2014 17:57:47 GMT -5
From the email from Lee Reed we just got: "We are updating our building plans for the Multi-Sport Field and hope to have some very exciting news to share in the very near future relative to the completion of that project."
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DFW HOYA
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Post by DFW HOYA on Nov 17, 2014 20:12:05 GMT -5
From the email from Lee Reed we just got: "We are updating our building plans for the Multi-Sport Field and hope to have some very exciting news to share in the very near future relative to the completion of that project." "For that reason, I have asked colleagues in Athletics and the University to see if we can develop a cost-effective approach to completing the field....As we develop new options for this important project in the coming months, we look forward to sharing its details with our friends and donors.--Dan Porterfield, Sept. 10, 2009 www.guhoyas.com/genrel/091009aaa.html
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njhoya78
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Post by njhoya78 on Nov 17, 2014 20:47:35 GMT -5
I very much look forward to the next update on the completion of the Multi-Sport Field in the autumn of 2019.
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Post by strummer8526 on Nov 17, 2014 21:29:35 GMT -5
Bottom line, if the fan base doesn't have any expectations for the future, how can we expect the monolithic Georgetown bureaucracy to be any different? Maybe because the fans are a widely dispersed group of individuals who are neither responsible--nor compensated--for managing the University, whereas the sole purpose of the "monolithic Georgetown bureaucracy" is to manage the University. I don't understand why you think it's our collective job to figure out the future of the football program. Should the alums also be deciding the future of the Math department or weighing in on what funds are allocated to the campus theater groups?
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RusskyHoya
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Post by RusskyHoya on Nov 17, 2014 22:19:16 GMT -5
I mean... it's not like they're not managing it. They're just not managing it in a way that will make most football fans happy.
The dereliction of duty, if it exists, is in actually communicating said management. That's a University-wide issue, though - opacity tends to be the order of the day, no matter what the issues at hand may be. Still, the wisdom emerging from countless engagements is that communicating news - good, bad, or otherwise - in an honest manner is much better for relationship-building than stalling, obfuscation, and radio silence in the name of saving face.
That's what bothers me the most, I think. I believe the Georgetown football fanbase, such as it is, can handle 'the truth.' They just need someone official to lay it on them.
As for the MSF, it'll happen eventually. I can't imagine it'll actually get going before Summer 2016 - not with all of the other construction projects going on around campus. More concrete plans could be revealed much sooner, though. The existing state of affairs is an eyesore in the middle of campus. It will be corrected, if for no other reason than pure aesthetics.
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