hoyafan23
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Post by hoyafan23 on Nov 13, 2014 19:37:16 GMT -5
I am so confused why all these prospects still go there and are drawn by the idea to make the NBA. Obviously if you get 4-6 out of the top 10 kids in the nation you will have players go to the NBA. With the decision of Briscoe over St. Johns and all the others it seems really really fishy. I think the NCAA really needs to do something... or I can just call some friends from Georgetown Law
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njhoya78
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Post by njhoya78 on Nov 13, 2014 19:54:35 GMT -5
Calipari has coached at Kentucky since the 2009-2010 season. He has fourteen UK players presently in the NBA: John Wall (Washington), DeMarcus Cousins (Sacramento), Patrick Patterson (Toronto), Eric Bledsoe (Phoenix), Enes Kanter (Utah), Brandon Knight (Milwaukee), Anthony Davis (New Orleans), Michael Kidd-Gilchrist (Charlotte), Terrence Jones (Houston), Darius Miller (New Orleans), Nerlens Noel (Philadelphia), Archie Goodwin (Phoenix), Julius Randle (Los Angeles Lakers) and James Young (Boston). He has had five other UK players drafted: Daniel Orton, Josh Harrellson, DeAndre Liggins, Marquis Teague and Doron Lamb.
That's nineteen players over five seasons. Maybe that's why these prospects are going there.
I'm just surprised that other programs at other less-highly regarded universities haven't tried a similar approach, especially with the one-and-done routine conducted so effectively in Lexington.
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Kentucky
Nov 13, 2014 20:13:12 GMT -5
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Post by FrazierFanatic on Nov 13, 2014 20:13:12 GMT -5
Most legitimate programs can't abide the stench of someone like Calislimy, not to mention the inevitable probation, loss of scholarships, etc
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njhoya78
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Post by njhoya78 on Nov 13, 2014 20:16:29 GMT -5
I agree, FF, but let's face it. . .there are plenty of illegitimate programs who will have no problem "testing" the limits.
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hoyafan23
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Post by hoyafan23 on Nov 13, 2014 20:44:13 GMT -5
Noel, John Wall, Brandon Knight, Anthony Davis, Julius Randle were all top 5 recruits and would have been in the NBA no matter what University they went to. Pretty much proves the point that Kentucky is pretty brutal on actually "developing" people.
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Post by michaelgrahmstylie on Nov 13, 2014 21:33:32 GMT -5
The NCAA does need to do something. It needs to put an end to one-and-done programs and bring the focus of college athletics back to the center--student athletes with a shot at getting a college education.
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njhoya78
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Post by njhoya78 on Nov 13, 2014 23:00:49 GMT -5
This is more an NBA issue than an NCAA issue. Unlike the NFL, which does not permit a player to be drafted by a team until he is three years past high school graduation, there is no NBA rule that prevents a player from being eligible for the draft, or to sign a contract as an undrafted player, right out of high school. Both the NFL and NBA use college programs as their minor leagues for player development, and the NCAA has been complicit in such use because of the vast quantities of money involved.
If the NBA does not want to prevent its franchises from acquiring young talent after one or two years of college (if that), there is nothing that the NCAA can do about it. We may not like it (no, let's make that "we don't like it"), but that is the sad reality of college basketball now.
Unfortunately, the focu$ of college athletic$ ha$ not been on $tudent-athlete$ with a $hot at getting a college education for a long time.
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MCIGuy
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Post by MCIGuy on Nov 13, 2014 23:24:02 GMT -5
This is more an NBA issue than an NCAA issue. Unlike the NFL, which does not permit a player to be drafted by a team until he is three years past high school graduation, there is no NBA rule that prevents a player from being eligible for the draft, or to sign a contract as an undrafted player, right out of high school. Both the NFL and NBA use college programs as their minor leagues for player development, and the NCAA has been complicit in such use because of the vast quantities of money involved. If the NBA does not want to prevent its franchises from acquiring young talent after one or two years of college (if that), there is nothing that the NCAA can do about it. We may not like it (no, let's make that "we don't like it"), but that is the sad reality of college basketball now. Unfortunately, the focu$ of college athletic$ ha$ not been on $tudent-athlete$ with a $hot at getting a college education for a long time. It is not an NBA problem. TPTB in the NBA would actually prefer a two year wait from high school to the pros. According to inside info this is something the new commish will seek. But the people who denounce such an idea are more often not the media and sports fans in general who all call for the one-year rule to be dropped and to allow "those kids" who ant to go straight to the NBA to be allowed to do so. Let's get this clear: the NCAA controls its own borders. There is nothing stopping the NCAA to come out with a rule that says anybody who signs a scholarship must play two or three seasons before leaving college. The NCAA can do that anytime it wants but it won't because in the eyes of college basketball folks it is better to have those kids for one year over never having them at all. If the NCAA did come up with such a rule it would not change the NBA's plans whatsoever. The NBA doesn't like sending scouts to high school gyms and then drafting high school players. The NBA wants to see those kids play in college first, preferably two seasons. So where would that leave the players who don't want to commit to multiple years of college and would be barred from entering the NBA out of high school? Playing overseas or playing in the D League. Perhaps they can get real jobs for a year or spend all of that off-time working on their games.
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tashoya
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Post by tashoya on Nov 13, 2014 23:33:55 GMT -5
This is more an NBA issue than an NCAA issue. Unlike the NFL, which does not permit a player to be drafted by a team until he is three years past high school graduation, there is no NBA rule that prevents a player from being eligible for the draft, or to sign a contract as an undrafted player, right out of high school. Both the NFL and NBA use college programs as their minor leagues for player development, and the NCAA has been complicit in such use because of the vast quantities of money involved. If the NBA does not want to prevent its franchises from acquiring young talent after one or two years of college (if that), there is nothing that the NCAA can do about it. We may not like it (no, let's make that "we don't like it"), but that is the sad reality of college basketball now. Unfortunately, the focu$ of college athletic$ ha$ not been on $tudent-athlete$ with a $hot at getting a college education for a long time. I see your points but, in your own statement pointing out the cooperation of the NCAA, it's an NCAA issue too. It's a horrible rule on their end and, at the least, if they're going to stick with the one year thing, it should be one year and not one semester. Suspensions should be harsh during the second semester of freshman year. I think I understand the "logic" behind the rule but it sort of presupposes that 18 year olds and the people they trust can't make a decision about what's best for them on their own. There is plenty of empirical evidence suggesting that that may be true but it doesn't make it right for the NCAA to have such an arbitrary rule in place. Take a place like Kentucky that isn't at all about educating or developing their players. The kids are stars there and only need to go to one semester of "school" before moving on. Is that 12 months with zero education, star treatment, and the pumping up, in many cases, of already inflated egos helpful in making a better decision than could have been made at 18? Highly doubtful. I'd be more in favor of a two year (a full two year) sort of deal with the elimination of the one year delay. Leave it up to the person to make the decision but a 5 month commitment is hollow and pointless.
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njhoya78
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Post by njhoya78 on Nov 13, 2014 23:42:25 GMT -5
I don't disagree with either MCIGuy or tashoya in that the NCAA is not blameless here. However, we have to remember that these athletic scholarships are awarded on an annual basis. . .they are not a four-year commitment. We often read about scholarships being "pulled" from student-athletes (especially when a new coach arrives). If the NCAA is not willing to commit to the award of a four-year scholarship, it is hard to force the student-athlete to commit to remain on campus any longer that the year-to-year scholarship requires.
Let's face it. The entire system stinks.
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Hoyaholic
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Post by Hoyaholic on Nov 14, 2014 0:50:38 GMT -5
Let's get this clear: the NCAA controls its own borders. There is nothing stopping the NCAA to come out with a rule that says anybody who signs a scholarship must play two or three seasons before leaving college. The NCAA can do that anytime it wants but it won't because in the eyes of college basketball folks it is better to have those kids for one year over never having them at all. I must be missing something. How exactly can the NCAA force a student to stay in school for 3 years just because he signed a scholarship offer? What are they going to do if he leaves? Sue him?
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Post by professorhoya on Nov 14, 2014 1:11:52 GMT -5
I am so confused why all these prospects still go there and are drawn by the idea to make the NBA. Obviously if you get 4-6 out of the top 10 kids in the nation you will have players go to the NBA. With the decision of Briscoe over St. Johns and all the others it seems really really fishy. I think the NCAA really needs to do something... or I can just call some friends from Georgetown Law I dunno if that would really change anything. Calipari would just get all the 2 and done 5 star players instead of the one and dones. They just need to put some kind of cap on the number of 5 stars that a school can have because the next couple years are going to be a farce with Calipari and UK fielding 2 units of 5 McDonalds 5 stars for every game.
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hoyazeke
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Post by hoyazeke on Nov 14, 2014 6:27:52 GMT -5
Calipari has coached at Kentucky since the 2009-2010 season. He has fourteen UK players presently in the NBA: John Wall (Washington), DeMarcus Cousins (Sacramento), Patrick Patterson (Toronto), Eric Bledsoe (Phoenix), Enes Kanter (Utah), Brandon Knight (Milwaukee), Anthony Davis (New Orleans), Michael Kidd-Gilchrist (Charlotte), Terrence Jones (Houston), Darius Miller (New Orleans), Nerlens Noel (Philadelphia), Archie Goodwin (Phoenix), Julius Randle (Los Angeles Lakers) and James Young (Boston). He has had five other UK players drafted: Daniel Orton, Josh Harrellson, DeAndre Liggins, Marquis Teague and Doron Lamb. That's nineteen players over five seasons. Maybe that's why these prospects are going there. I'm just surprised that other programs at other less-highly regarded universities haven't tried a similar approach, especially with the one-and-done routine conducted so effectively in Lexington. All of these players with the exception of Miller and Liggins were 5* recruits. As it was already stated, they were getting drafted no matter what university they chose. I think an equal problem is that no kids want to "slay the dragon" anymore. Why do these kids believe that they need UK, Duke or KU in order to get to the league. If one of my sons develops into a 5* recruit, no way I send him to Calishadi. I even allow a visit.
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TBird41
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Post by TBird41 on Nov 14, 2014 8:24:12 GMT -5
Calipari has coached at Kentucky since the 2009-2010 season. He has fourteen UK players presently in the NBA: John Wall (Washington), DeMarcus Cousins (Sacramento), Patrick Patterson (Toronto), Eric Bledsoe (Phoenix), Enes Kanter (Utah), Brandon Knight (Milwaukee), Anthony Davis (New Orleans), Michael Kidd-Gilchrist (Charlotte), Terrence Jones (Houston), Darius Miller (New Orleans), Nerlens Noel (Philadelphia), Archie Goodwin (Phoenix), Julius Randle (Los Angeles Lakers) and James Young (Boston). He has had five other UK players drafted: Daniel Orton, Josh Harrellson, DeAndre Liggins, Marquis Teague and Doron Lamb. That's nineteen players over five seasons. Maybe that's why these prospects are going there. I'm just surprised that other programs at other less-highly regarded universities haven't tried a similar approach, especially with the one-and-done routine conducted so effectively in Lexington. All of these players with the exception of Miller and Liggins were 5* recruits. As it was already stated, they were getting drafted no matter what university they chose. I think an equal problem is that no kids want to "slay the dragon" anymore. Why do these kids believe that they need UK, Duke or KU in order to get to the league. If one of my sons develops into a 5* recruit, no way I send him to Calishadi. I even allow a visit. Harrellson (3 star recruit) and Bledsoe (RSCI 52) weren't 5 stars. And the list of NBA locks on that list is a lot lower than you're making it out to be--there are more top 25 types than top 5 types. No one was keeping Davis, Noel (think we'd claim him as someone we got to the league if he came here?) or Wall out of the league, but a decent number of the guys on that list weren't obvious one and dones. And I know that if I'm a top 25 recruit, I'd be very careful about picking a coach without a track record of sending guys to the NBA. At the very least, Calipari doesn't screw up his recruits, and that's not something you can say about every NCAA coach (seriously, you'd rather trust your career to Steve Lavin?). Also, UK players are doing exactly the same schoolwork 2nd semester as 1st semester because of the APR. They aren't pulling an Iverson or a Kevin Braswell and dropping out of 2nd semester classes b/c otherwise UK would be ineligible like UConn was. And that being said, does anyone really think the NCAAs is going to do anything about UK? They aren't going to do a thing to UNC basketball, and look at all the actual evidence they have of wrong-doing there.
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calhoya
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Post by calhoya on Nov 14, 2014 8:28:20 GMT -5
There is so much wrong with the NCAA that it is difficult to know where to begin. MCI hit the nail on the head with his observation that eliminating the one and done would simply drive most of the 5 star players overseas or to the development league. Fans would have to decide if that is a preferred option.
Personally, I have no problem with giving the kid the choice of one and done. Students often accept academic scholarships to a college or university and drop out or transfer after one year. There is no one arguing that academic scholarships should require a multiple year commitment. Look, I understand the frustration of having your team constantly disrupted by turnover or transfer. I also understand the frustration of watching a kid lose eligibility because he or she does not make the effort or adopts an entitled approach to being the campus "star." It is also true that many college basketball players are not at all interested in getting an education. However, it is equally true that many college basketball programs are not interested in giving these kids an education--they are a financial asset used to help defray costs and promote the university or college.
So let's fix the situation and prevent the Kentucky program and the Oregon program from running players through there with little effort to promote an education. But first let's provide some protections to these kids who are recruited and then abandoned by the coach for a better job or recruited over for another promising player, forced to transfer and sit out a year to free up a scholarship, or tossed aside after a devastating injury, or simply discarded after proving not to develop into the expected star. The focus should be on equity for the players too. I would rather eliminate the pretense that the one and dones are students and simply consider them what they are--a marketing tool for the university to drive revenue to the school and attract interest and applications.
I apologize for the rant, but I have seen too much over the years. The entire mess needs to be cleaned up even if we as fans may not like the changes that are coming. Eliminating one and dones is one solution but by no means the most important.
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Post by ColumbiaHeightsHoya on Nov 14, 2014 8:53:04 GMT -5
The grad transfer rule should be changed as well. That has turned into a free agent system. I thought it was good for the student until I saw how many of them did not complete their grad work. The numbers were alarming. If anyone can navigate a handler, it is Calipari so good for him. I was more troubled to hear that St. J's lost out on the Briscoe kid as they needed him and would be good for the BE but the rest of it I could care less about.
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hoyazeke
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Post by hoyazeke on Nov 14, 2014 9:19:36 GMT -5
Tbird my argument is more about the kids belief in Cal than any issue with how Cal recruits or coaches. A top 50 recruit should have real thoughts of at least getting drafted. A top 10 recruit should know he's getting drafted and only be concerned with legacy and health. IMO.....Cal isn't improving anyone's game in one year. Especially with his dribble/ drive O. So if you eliminate Cal's can't miss recruits, he is no better at getting kids to the league than any other coach.
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miracles87
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Post by miracles87 on Nov 14, 2014 9:45:12 GMT -5
I continue to be amazed at the yearly recruiting dominance of Kentucky. It's one thing to get a top 2 or 3 recruit every couple years, but Calipari is landing practically everyone every year. Now, obviously, UK has an unmatched combination of history, facilities and rabid fan base, not to mention a warm and cuddly environment where the expectant NBA-er need not trouble himself too terribly with academic concerns, but many other schools provide similar benefits. It's this bizarre desire for these kids to cluster at one school, practically guaranteeing collective success, without necessarily testing themselves as true difference makers. I suppose Calipari is selling the benefit of practicing every day against the very best players in college, but I don't love what it says about players who feel the need to have glory spoon fed to them. It is a little weird, but I have enjoyed watching these set piece Kentucky teams rumble through the year, and have gained respect for Calipari as a coach in a lot of ways. Bottom line, I think the kids who go there are total Edited, and I look forward to Josh breaking them like kindling over his knee in the NCAA Championship game.
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Post by aleutianhoya on Nov 14, 2014 10:13:10 GMT -5
If you went to a "two and done" system, I suspect (over time) there would be less of a glut of the best kids at Kentucky for the simple reason that fewer kids would go somewhere where they knew they weren't going to see a huge amount of playing time in year one. I know that they still got a great class this year even though kids ended up staying more than one year, but let's see how it goes. If ten of the very best kids are happy all getting 20 minutes a game, then I will stand corrected. But I suspect that Cal isn't really going to dole out minutes quite that equitably. And that even if he does (and if it works for him competitively on the court), over time enough kids are going to shy away from an already loaded program (as enough kids did historically) to bring back some semblance of normalcy. Sure, there will always be top kids that join an already loaded program -- there always have been -- but I think it'd be better without the one and done rule.
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EtomicB
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Post by EtomicB on Nov 14, 2014 10:23:38 GMT -5
Let's get this clear: the NCAA controls its own borders. There is nothing stopping the NCAA to come out with a rule that says anybody who signs a scholarship must play two or three seasons before leaving college. The NCAA can do that anytime it wants but it won't because in the eyes of college basketball folks it is better to have those kids for one year over never having them at all. I must be missing something. How exactly can the NCAA force a student to stay in school for 3 years just because he signed a scholarship offer? What are they going to do if he leaves? Sue him? This^^ A rule like this would never work and I doubt the schools would allow the NCAA to set such a requirement.. The NFL has a 3 year rule doesn't it? MLB has a rule that if a kid goes to college he's not eligible for the draft for 3 years and I think the NHL has a similar rule.. The NBA has to amend its age limit to curb the one & done issue..
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