thebin
Diamond Hoya (over 2500 posts)
Posts: 3,834
|
Post by thebin on Sept 5, 2014 12:07:14 GMT -5
Thread consolidating previous discussions over the last two weeks within the Wagner and Dayton threads.I think people should step back and realize this program is not being funded at the club level anymore. How does football rank in terms of program budget among Georgetown's 29 sports? 2nd. How does football rank in terms of staff budget among Georgetown's 29 sports? 2nd. How does football rank in terms of operating expense budget among Georgetown's 29 sports? 3rd. If Georgetown was an Ivy league team its budget would rank near the median of those eight programs. Trouble is, of course, the Hoyas play in a conference where the other teams are spending closer to the CAA than the Ivy. Fordham's football budget is now more than what USC, Nebraska or Penn State spend on basketball, close to $6 million. Fordham football even outspends three Big East basketball programs (Creighton, Xavier, Butler). No one is choking off the program financially. Yes, the MSF is a major issue, but that alone doesn't drive wins and losses. It is actually exactly with this in mind that I say this is a program that can't survive a major step down- because it is so expensive already and interest is already so low. I think interest could be much higher had the university given the team a physical presence in a real (modest) stadium years ago but they didn't. Now the historical failure to put a real facility on the heart of campus almost becomes another reason to kill the program once we've raised the white flag because the Patriot League decided to improve itself. You can keep a swimming team that plays American and Howard and UMBC and has one part time coach and no equipment costs but what's the point of taking a big budget FCS program into a Pioneer or NEC?
|
|
DFW HOYA
Platinum Hoya (over 5000 posts)
Posts: 5,701
|
Post by DFW HOYA on Sept 5, 2014 12:23:21 GMT -5
It is actually exactly with this in mind that I say this is a program that can't survive a major step down- because it is so expensive already and interest is already so low. I question the "interest is low" argument, inasmuch as the numbers do not support this relative to the interest in on-campus sports as a whole. Football outdraws lacrosse nearly two to one at MSF, as men's lacrosse is down 50% under Coach Warne versus where it was under Coach Urick. By that argument, is interest "already so low" that men's lacrosse needs a step down? Of course not. No other on-campus sport comes close to what football draws, none. Give this campus a winner and students will be left watching games from windows in Regents and Hariri because the MSF won't be enough to meet demand.
|
|
thebin
Diamond Hoya (over 2500 posts)
Posts: 3,834
|
Post by thebin on Sept 5, 2014 12:53:56 GMT -5
You really think we'll have overflow crowds in the NEC or Pioneer? I have a lot of respect for your program knowledge, so I'd appreciate it if you would state whether or not you think we should move into the NEC or the Pioneer? Do you think staying in the PL is a non-starter?
I can't help but have noticed that there isn't a single post yet about the impending Dayton game.....
|
|
|
Post by puppydog100 on Sept 5, 2014 15:30:13 GMT -5
The Dayton game could be ugly, we are playing way over our heads. If Dayton uses this as a "pre-season" game, we will probably be able to hold our own against their second and third string players. The line is 12, but this could be a blowout. Let's hope for the best, stay healthy.
|
|
|
Post by puppydog100 on Sept 5, 2014 15:43:42 GMT -5
DFW HOYA, your logic makes no sense. Comparing football attendance to other sports is not relevant. We need to put a competitive team on the field, then the fan base will show some interest in attending games and the alumni will provide the monetary support toward the future success of the program.
Right now the football program is on life support. Either take the necessary steps toward a healthy future, or pull the plug.
|
|
|
Post by Problem of Dog on Sept 5, 2014 22:16:23 GMT -5
The team is going through some changes, and it may not be pretty today. However the freshman class will help in the near future, because it is a solid group. There are good players within the sophs, juniors and seniors. But from a system knowledge standpoint they are not much better off than the freshman coming in. The team should improve over the next 10 games this year and as they learn their new offense. I can tell you that game 1 last weekend looked better than the spring game by a lot. While that may sound scary to some, it is an expected improvement considering everyone on offense is learning a new system which does take away a significant amount from the experience factor the seniors and juniors normally bring to a team. The Hoyas have a new strength coach with a different mindset and program. That with the energy from the overhauled coaching staff will produce better results, but it is a beginning, and a process. No program can be judged based on game 1 of a new era. The defense was solid last weekend and if it had more rest during the game, Wagner wouldn't have scored 21pts. The O will get better and the D actually get the chance to dominate some games. I don't have a prediction on a final record, but their improvement will be visually evident as the season progresses. You're basically saying what every freshman parent ever has said on this board. Bless your heart.
|
|
guru
Platinum Hoya (over 5000 posts)
Posts: 6,582
|
Post by guru on Sept 6, 2014 8:29:36 GMT -5
The team is going through some changes, and it may not be pretty today. However the freshman class will help in the near future, because it is a solid group. There are good players within the sophs, juniors and seniors. But from a system knowledge standpoint they are not much better off than the freshman coming in. The team should improve over the next 10 games this year and as they learn their new offense. I can tell you that game 1 last weekend looked better than the spring game by a lot. While that may sound scary to some, it is an expected improvement considering everyone on offense is learning a new system which does take away a significant amount from the experience factor the seniors and juniors normally bring to a team. The Hoyas have a new strength coach with a different mindset and program. That with the energy from the overhauled coaching staff will produce better results, but it is a beginning, and a process. No program can be judged based on game 1 of a new era. The defense was solid last weekend and if it had more rest during the game, Wagner wouldn't have scored 21pts. The O will get better and the D actually get the chance to dominate some games. I don't have a prediction on a final record, but their improvement will be visually evident as the season progresses. You're basically saying what every freshman parent ever has said on this board. Bless your heart. This is such a Editedy thing to post. You should really find other outlets for your frustrations.
|
|
FrazierFanatic
Blue & Gray (over 10,000 posts)
Posts: 15,521
Member is Online
|
Post by FrazierFanatic on Sept 6, 2014 11:42:21 GMT -5
You can't blame POD for his pessimism; it is grounded in history. The same things are said year after year, especially with every coaching change, but the results keep getting more disheartening. I will hold out hope for this new staff, but the "guarantee" that things will get better rings hollow right now.
|
|
|
Post by Problem of Dog on Sept 6, 2014 17:25:24 GMT -5
You can't blame POD for his pessimism; it is grounded in history. The same things are said year after year, especially with every coaching change, but the results keep getting more disheartening. I will hold out hope for this new staff, but the "guarantee" that things will get better rings hollow right now. It's not pessimism. It's realism. There are currently people who post on this board who were optimistic, wide eyed parents of freshmen saying the same thing at one time, and now are embittered and frustrated parents of upperclassmen/alums.
|
|
|
Post by bogie on Sept 10, 2014 0:37:25 GMT -5
Hoyas, you all know you can compete. Institutional wherewithal is the only issue; everyone here (and elsewhere) seems to acknowledge that. The rest of us in the PL had to take a step up in order to avoid falling into football oblivion - and that step up was contrary to many thoughtful objections from alumni and supporters at all of the PL football schools. Just look at what nearly occurred at Lafayette a decade ago.
The NCAA won't permit Georgetown to play Division III football, of course (unless Georgetown elects to play all its sports in a Division III conference). And Patriot League fans really, truly want Georgetown in the mix and on the schedule every year. Some of us will pick on Georgetown relentlessly, but that's what Division I football fans do. In my mind, the only football option for the Hoyas is to step up, at reasonable increments, and then come beat the crap out of us. As a PL member that also means you get Ivy home games along the way as well as the opportunity to snuff out all the the irksome noise from the Lafayettes and Lehighs of the world. Georgetown just wouldn't get that in the NEC or the Pioneer Conference. Joining the NEC or the Pioneer (or going "independent") is like putting one cleat in the grave and I think you know it.
Patriot League fans want Georgetown to remain a PL football member. It would help if Georgetown fans wanted that back, but more important is Georgetown's ability to foster the institutional wherewithal to dedicate itself, for now, simply to beating a couple of select PL teams - as they are presently constituted - and beating a couple of Ivy teams against whom the Hoyas can compete. Not Penn or Harvard or Princeton, but perhaps Cornell or Columbia or Brown. And Georgetown needs your alumni dollars to back it up. Seriously - three thousand alums can give a thousand dollars each every year . . . we did it. So can you.
In other words, do nothing more than other PL schools - of less renown but with similar institutional hindrances - have done. Stop whining, pick up the ball and toss one to the end zone. The safeties are in close and it's wide open. No one is covering and no one will throw a flag if you do.
|
|
|
Post by puppydog100 on Sept 10, 2014 11:53:16 GMT -5
bogie, 3,000 alums at $1,000. per annum, that's $ 3 mil per year.
Okay, I'm in, now just 2,999. alums and supporters to go. We could do our own ice bucket challenge. Nothing like pouring cold water over a good idea.
|
|
RusskyHoya
Diamond Hoya (over 2500 posts)
In Soviet Russia, Hoya Blue Bleeds You!
Posts: 4,570
|
Post by RusskyHoya on Sept 10, 2014 14:30:21 GMT -5
In other words, do nothing more than other PL schools - of less renown but with similar institutional hindrances - have done. Stop whining, pick up the ball and toss one to the end zone. The safeties are in close and it's wide open. No one is covering and no one will throw a flag if you do. The other PL schools have a very, very different institutional, athletic, and financial model from Georgetown. Their path is not one that Georgetown could or would trod, at this point. The rub, of course, is that there's no other tried and tested path to follow available either. So, instead, you get The Georgetown Football Model: The Worst Option Except for All the Other Options. Not that I have a lot of bright ideas either. Getting some data would be a good starting point. How many scholarship equivalencies does Georgetown football currently offer? How many come from endowments, if any? That minimum information would give us a rough starting point from which to start thinking about how progress, however incremental, can be made.
|
|
|
Post by bogie on Sept 10, 2014 21:43:06 GMT -5
bogie, 3,000 alums at $1,000. per annum, that's $ 3 mil per year. So maybe it's a pipe dream for now at 37th and O. But that would take care of things, wouldn't it? Just amortize . . .
|
|
|
Post by puppydog100 on Sept 12, 2014 11:33:49 GMT -5
RusskyHoya, what is the Hoya Football Model?
|
|
RusskyHoya
Diamond Hoya (over 2500 posts)
In Soviet Russia, Hoya Blue Bleeds You!
Posts: 4,570
|
Post by RusskyHoya on Sept 12, 2014 11:56:57 GMT -5
bogie, 3,000 alums at $1,000. per annum, that's $ 3 mil per year. So maybe it's a pipe dream for now at 37th and O. But that would take care of things, wouldn't it? Just amortize . . . Now double that to account for the requisite comparable increase in funding for women's sports due to Title IX. RusskyHoya, what is the Hoya Football Model? I think it's been explained in gory detail elsewhere, but briefly: 1. It used to be the accepted Patriot League model - instead of scholarships, you would get a combination of need-based financial aid (available to all U.S.-based undergrads) and athletic funds that could 'buy out' the loan parts of your financial aid package. Georgetown had less - I don't know exactly how much less, but the rumor is that it was significant - money to offer in terms of these buyouts/scholarship equivalencies. On the other hand, we offer much more generous need-based aid generally than do the other Patriot League schools. 2. Now, with the Patriot League gone scholarship, we remain (AFAIK) in this legacy model while hoping, over the long term, to transition to an Ivy League model. In that model, the combination of very generous need-based financial aid for all students and a high level of University desirability means that the main draw for recruited athletes is guaranteed admittance to a highly desirable school that almost none of them could ever get into otherwise. Financially, they would either not be paying anything (lower/lower middle class), paying relatively little (middle class), or paying a lot but coming from families for whom it is not a burden (upper class). The successful completion of that transition is at least one or two multi-billion dollar capital campaigns away, though.
|
|
|
Post by puppydog100 on Sept 12, 2014 12:18:10 GMT -5
RusskyHoya, thanks for the information.
Looks like we will remain the doormat of Patriot League football for years to come. So be it.
|
|
thebin
Diamond Hoya (over 2500 posts)
Posts: 3,834
|
Post by thebin on Sept 12, 2014 12:28:08 GMT -5
3 NEC/Pioneer games to start the season and I've not seen this level of apathy about the first 3 games of the season in my 15 years of following this program. Nor do I think you can attribute it to the losses. Nobody cares about these schools at Gtown. Nobody. The lack of outrage for the losses is actually more damning that the losses themselves.
|
|
DFW HOYA
Platinum Hoya (over 5000 posts)
Posts: 5,701
|
Post by DFW HOYA on Sept 12, 2014 12:50:30 GMT -5
RusskyHoya, what is the Hoya Football Model? From 1964-1992, it was the "Football For Fun" model. Since 1993, the "Bob Benson" model, which worked great in the MAAC when Georgetown had a financial advantage on the other eight schools. Of course, Bob would be the first to say it doesn't work now, given the evolution of the PL from "Ivy's Little Brother" to "CAA Lite". Lots to discuss going forward, especially with next week's football dinner bringing in a lot of the people who can make a difference with the program.
|
|
RusskyHoya
Diamond Hoya (over 2500 posts)
In Soviet Russia, Hoya Blue Bleeds You!
Posts: 4,570
|
Post by RusskyHoya on Sept 17, 2014 21:25:52 GMT -5
RusskyHoya, what is the Hoya Football Model? From 1964-1992, it was the "Football For Fun" model. Since 1993, the "Bob Benson" model, which worked great in the MAAC when Georgetown had a financial advantage on the other eight schools. Of course, Bob would be the first to say it doesn't work now, given the evolution of the PL from "Ivy's Little Brother" to "CAA Lite". Lots to discuss going forward, especially with next week's football dinner bringing in a lot of the people who can make a difference with the program. Unless they have 8-digit $$$ to give away, they're probably not able to make much of a difference with the program. I can't help but link to the hilarious - and oh so spot on - assessment of Georgetown football by the rest of the Patriot League: L. O. *sob* L. Anyway, while the cadre of folks who are invested in the Georgetown football program do have a platform this coming weekend - or, at least, some visibility other than invisibility - it's time for them to push for an honest conversation. Not comforting pat assurances or boilerplate talk of the virtues of amateurism and "Mens sana in corpore sano." Just some open dialogue about the program: past, present, and future. What do we have to lose? Let's be blunt about the MSF, its place in the facilities pecking order, and take comfort in the fact that it's still above the Lauinger expansion and the stillborn Boathouse, if nothing else. Let's be upfront about the number of scholarship equivalencies we have now - and what a realistic growth rate for that might be, since we all understand that scholarships are an impossibility (hint: it ain't gonna be high, since an endowed scholarship comes in at around a million per year and it doesn't seem like there's all that big a base of untapped donations out there). It's a hell of a lot easier to rally around the flag when the flagbearer isn't throwing smoke bombs in his army's general direction.
|
|
cheer48
Century (over 100 posts)
Posts: 180
|
Post by cheer48 on Sept 18, 2014 7:43:17 GMT -5
ditto Russky....amen, just a tad please of honest projection by the administration
|
|