pertinax
Century (over 100 posts)
Posts: 131
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Post by pertinax on Oct 5, 2014 18:41:57 GMT -5
TO "Problem of Dog," Whose post I had missed and which asserted "The Georgetown that I was admitted to was exceedingly more difficult to gain admission to than the Georgetown that Mr. Coleman, Esq. attended." Dog, you have got to be kidding me.
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Post by Admin on Oct 5, 2014 19:11:42 GMT -5
TO TAS HOYA: My reason for making the "basket weaving" comparison can be easily found in the course listings under "theology" and "philosophy," with some, such as "Democracy and Star Trek," bordering on the hilarious, a trend that began, as best I can recall, decades ago when the college announced that Shakespeare, Milton and Chaucer would no longer be required courses provided one instead opted for courses in Black and Lesbian studies. And please don't call me either a racist or homophobe, nor do I expect, in view of your temperate tone, that you would do so. True, I haven't audited any campus courses lately, but I can certainly read the list of courses in two departments once envied for their high standards. You really find that I am wrong to do that? Well, no. I don't think you do. And I wish you well. Since 1995, specific courses in Shakespeare, Milton and Chaucer are not required for any English major, nor are courses in black or lesbian studies. The major is open ended about what courses to take for a degree, a trend which has grown across English departments nationwide, certainly not just Catholic ones. In 2014, about 7% of Georgetown students are English majors.
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tashoya
Blue & Gray (over 10,000 posts)
Posts: 12,297
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Post by tashoya on Oct 5, 2014 21:37:07 GMT -5
TO TAS HOYA: My reason for making the "basket weaving" comparison can be easily found in the course listings under "theology" and "philosophy," with some, such as "Democracy and Star Trek," bordering on the hilarious, a trend that began, as best I can recall, decades ago when the college announced that Shakespeare, Milton and Chaucer would no longer be required courses provided one instead opted for courses in Black and Lesbian studies. And please don't call me either a racist or homophobe, nor do I expect, in view of your temperate tone, that you would do so. True, I haven't audited any campus courses lately, but I can certainly read the list of courses in two departments once envied for their high standards. You really find that I am wrong to do that? Well, no. I don't think you do. And I wish you well. I take your point and, to be honest, I can't disagree. That said, I haven't looked at a course listing in a long time and would be interested to see what else is being offered if such random courses are available for electives. For instance, when I was in school, I was shocked that there wasn't much in terms of technology courses if one were so inclined to take them. There was a ridiculously basic database class that I took and could have taken in middle school but not much else. My only point is that I'm not qualified at this point to make a judgment on the quality of the education because I don't attend. I'm hoping that the (seemingly) silly classes are balanced out by other offerings. I guess I'm somewhat less appalled about the lack of Chaucer, Milton, and Shakespeare classes because I never thought of Georgetown as an "English major" type of school. Do I wish those classes were offered? Absolutely. Mostly because the English department, save for a few rock star teachers, was awful in the school that I attended growing up. It felt like a huge disadvantage once I arrived at Georgetown for my freshman year. Georgetown didn't require me to read much in the way of the classics either. I did, however, make a nice dent in that regard in the five or six years after having graduated from Georgetown. And, to me, that's an important thing. Teaching kids to want to learn. I don't know how certain teachers do that. But I had a few that did. It didn't happen at Georgetown. It happened well before that. If you can bottle that somehow.... In any case, I don't know how indicative of the overall education a handful of classes are. The HS I went to offers a lot more courses than they did when I attended. Some even seem frivolous or not necessary. But I don't know if that equates to a lesser education. As far as the "selectivity" comment that you attributed to POD, that came from me. It was only to point out that, when I was admitted, Georgetown's admission rate was much lower than when Mr. Coleman was admitted. Take from that what you will. Maybe the entirety of seniors applying for admission to college fell of a cliff and, as such, it wasn't (in real terms) all that difficult to get in. I certainly wouldn't argue too vehemently that the quality of education overall in this country has deteriorated. But I only work in one district in one part of the country so my opinion and my experience is very localized and is only bolstered by what I read and by people I meet and places to which I travel.
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hoyatables
Diamond Hoya (over 2500 posts)
Posts: 2,603
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Post by hoyatables on Oct 5, 2014 22:02:20 GMT -5
The English department offered plenty of the "Classics" 15 years ago and continues to do so: Chaucer and Shakespeare are still on the list of "Level One Electives" along with classes on British Poetry, Medieval Drama, and 18th and 19th century literature and poetry (along with more modern offerings). And there are also classes on literary history which I would assume cover the classics.
I do note no Milton (I assume Rosenblatt has retired), no Dostoevsky (Cardaci also retired) and Faulkner is sorely missed (RIP Professor Knoll).
Anyway, there are still chances to read the great books.
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ksf42001
Silver Hoya (over 500 posts)
Posts: 901
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Post by ksf42001 on Oct 6, 2014 8:58:33 GMT -5
TO TAS HOYA: My reason for making the "basket weaving" comparison can be easily found in the course listings under "theology" and "philosophy," with some, such as "Democracy and Star Trek," bordering on the hilarious, a trend that began, as best I can recall, decades ago when the college announced that Shakespeare, Milton and Chaucer would no longer be required courses provided one instead opted for courses in Black and Lesbian studies. And please don't call me either a racist or homophobe, nor do I expect, in view of your temperate tone, that you would do so. True, I haven't audited any campus courses lately, but I can certainly read the list of courses in two departments once envied for their high standards. You really find that I am wrong to do that? Well, no. I don't think you do. And I wish you well. Pertinax - Could I send you a copy of my transcript? I want to know if the courses I took would be considered legitimate enough in your eyes. While I did take Shakespeare as one of my English electives, my other elective was focused on Witches and Witchcraft, but I don't know if analyzing the Malleus Maleficarum is rigorous enough for your seal of approval. Let me know. Thanks!
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quickplay
Silver Hoya (over 500 posts)
Posts: 733
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Post by quickplay on Oct 6, 2014 9:10:30 GMT -5
Hoyaloya, I am completely uninterested in having the first thirty seconds of a debate about abortion over and over again with you. I have told you I understand your viewpoints on abortion. I’m not sure if you are incapable of understanding other viewpoints or if you are just comfortable dismissing them. You are not the gatekeeper of what is legitimate in a discussion. My personal views on abortion are hardly unique.
For example, I keep repeating the fact that a fetus is not a baby with no supporting facts? Well how about the fact that a fetus is by definition unborn. A baby is born. You are acting like YOUR viewpoint that a baby IS a fetus is the standard and I have some sort of obligation to explain my deviation. But you saying ‘pictures’ or ‘science’ do not actually make a fetus a baby. I’ll say it again. It is extremely patronizing that you act like you’re holding people’s feet to the fire when you ask them such basic questions and then dismiss any responses as if the only legitimate response would be ‘oh hey wait a minute I guess my viewpoints are all based in ignorance. Now that you’ve asked me to consider whether or not I’m murdering babies I’ve changed my mind!’
“I understand your reluctance to identify yourself for fear someone will hold your opinions against you. But do you not feel at all uncomfortable calling people names anonymously?” - Right, you are engaged in a brave, noble discussion while I’m just here calling people names. I have a question for you, if I do attach my name and credentials do I automatically become unbearably smug and patronizing or is that something I’ll have to practice?
As far as contraceptives go: “The result: more than one million abortions a year over the past four decades. Illegitimate births more than quintupled. In the mid-60s, the out-of- wedlock birthrate was 7.7% overall, now it is more than 41%!”
Ah, the classic mentioning of numbers as if they support your argument, but they don’t. Has the abortion rate gone up or down when contraceptives are available? Why are you bringing up total numbers when they do nothing to inform us about any changes in abortion rates? Also, what does the out of wedlock birthrate have to do with this discussion? You may mix general moralizing in with the discussion of abortion, but they’re apples and oranges. Not interested in getting sidetracked by a red herring.
So you’re saying that access to contraceptives and sex education hasn’t lowered the rate of abortions, but instead it was AIDS and opposition to partial birth abortion? Because it seems like one is something that has been studied over and over and over (http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/wonkblog/wp/2014/10/02/want-to-reduce-teen-pregnancy-and-abortion-start-with-long-term-birth-control/) and the other is something that you just made up. This discussion goes off the rails when your sense of moral superiority distracts from the discussion. If I make the claim that contraceptives and education reduce abortions, you responding with information about out of wedlock babies is not a counterpoint. It either reduces the rate or not. (Hint: it does) You have thrown out anecdotes, but what is your viewpoint on contraceptives and education? It just seems …strange to me to want to reduce (or even eliminate) abortions, but then to demand that it’s done in a way that conforms with your determination of moral sexual behavior. You keep bringing up raw numbers, but you know full well that they do not tell the story.
So to sum up: 1) I’m done answering questions about abortion that would be covered in the first two minutes of a middle school discussion. You need to accept that people have other viewpoints. You disagreeing does not make them illegitimate. You asking questions is not making a point. Repeating over and over that it is a baby and a human life does not make it so. You’re asking questions about the issues where we disagree. You know the answers, you disagree.
2) This message board is anonymous by design. If you’d like to go out of your way to use your real name, more power to you. It means nothing to me either way.
3) Your claim that contraceptives and education do not reduce abortions is completely unsupported. Total numbers, or even just the fact that they still exist, do not make a point. It also becomes the moment when people sometimes stop taking your viewpoints as seriously (not just you, but pro-life in general). If you require abortions to be reduced only in a way that conforms with your moral code, we’re not just talking about abortion anymore. We’re talking about requiring children to remain a consequence of sexual behavior.
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TC
Platinum Hoya (over 5000 posts)
Posts: 9,400
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Post by TC on Oct 6, 2014 11:06:40 GMT -5
TO "Problem of Dog," Whose post I had missed and which asserted "The Georgetown that I was admitted to was exceedingly more difficult to gain admission to than the Georgetown that Mr. Coleman, Esq. attended." Dog, you have got to be kidding me. What exactly is your dispute with the statement? It seems rather straightforward, and although I don't know where to find 1950's admission data, it seems like a reasonable statement given how the Georgetown of today stacks up against the Georgetown of the 1970's and 1980's.
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Post by strummer8526 on Oct 6, 2014 17:15:44 GMT -5
A little off topic, but I'll throw one out there: Assuming there is an all-knowing and all-loving God, why doesn't He intervene to bring an end to these threads? Framed another way, can God create a HoyaTalk poster so persistent that even He can't moderate it?
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tashoya
Blue & Gray (over 10,000 posts)
Posts: 12,297
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Post by tashoya on Oct 6, 2014 17:53:47 GMT -5
A little off topic, but I'll throw one out there: Assuming there is an all-knowing and all-loving God, why doesn't He intervene to bring an end to these threads? Framed another way, can God create a HoyaTalk poster so persistent that even He can't moderate it? Probably. That's why he made Dan.
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Elvado
Platinum Hoya (over 5000 posts)
Posts: 6,080
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Post by Elvado on Oct 6, 2014 20:05:07 GMT -5
Free will boys. Free will. God loves us enough to let us screw up and then forgives us anyway.
If I did not believe in a forgiving God, there would be no reason to get up in the morning.
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hoyatables
Diamond Hoya (over 2500 posts)
Posts: 2,603
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Post by hoyatables on Oct 7, 2014 8:08:05 GMT -5
Free will boys. Free will. God loves us enough to let us screw up and then forgives us anyway. If I did not believe in a forgiving God, there would be no reason to get up in the morning. Hear hear. And I have to say, until I became a parent, I'm not entirely sure that I understood how this was possible.
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hoyaloya
Century (over 100 posts)
Posts: 156
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Post by hoyaloya on Nov 2, 2014 18:45:04 GMT -5
QUICKPLAY Please re-read my previous post. I think you will find that what I stated was in response to contentions made by you and/or TC.
May I call to your attention these remarks of yours from your most recent post?
“I’m not sure if you are incapable of understanding other viewpoints “
“It is extremely patronizing “
“the classic mentioning of numbers as if they support your argument, “
“You keep bringing up raw numbers, but you know full well that they do not tell the story. “
“questions about abortion that would be covered in the first two minutes of a middle school discussion”
“if I do attach my name and credentials do I automatically become unbearably smug and patronizing or is that something I’ll have to practice?”
ELVADO In your post of October 5, you state:
“Whatever one's opinion of hoyaloya's opinions might be, his courage of conviction can not be argued. He also refuses to go ad hominem, which is to be lauded."
Elvado, thank you.
Richard M. Coleman Georgetown AB ’57; LL.M. ‘61
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quickplay
Silver Hoya (over 500 posts)
Posts: 733
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Post by quickplay on Nov 4, 2014 9:03:44 GMT -5
hoyaloya,
Your discussion style is dismissive and often intellectually disingenuous (your "statistics" would be laughed out of a middle school discussion). Not surprising that you'd so hilariously try to paint yourself as a victim.
But I'm glad you found someone who makes you feel validated.
Ultimately, I think you are the type of person that is holding back honest discussion about abortion. Your sole point is 'no abortion,' and while I believe that is a perfectly valid perspective, it is also unrealistic as applied to policy. So you can whine about people's tone in how they talk to you, but this entire discussion has been you with your fingers in your ears, refusing to acknowledge or engage in discussion of anything besides 'you're so right hoyaloya, what was everyone else thinking??'
If you dismiss an attempt to bring up education and contraceptives, use misleading and blatantly false statistics, and constantly repeat the same questions about people's beliefs as if they just haven't thought about it yet, maybe you shouldn't try to hide behind decorum...
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hoyainspirit
Platinum Hoya (over 5000 posts)
When life puts that voodoo on me, music is my gris-gris.
Posts: 8,389
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Post by hoyainspirit on Nov 4, 2014 9:29:31 GMT -5
Ba-zing!
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tashoya
Blue & Gray (over 10,000 posts)
Posts: 12,297
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Post by tashoya on Nov 5, 2014 0:41:10 GMT -5
This is starting to get fun. Hoyaloya, nothing personal but, while you have admirably made a point not to take personal shots, quickplay nailed your tone. It's glaring and nearly negates my previous statement.
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hoyaloya
Century (over 100 posts)
Posts: 156
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Post by hoyaloya on Dec 7, 2014 17:08:45 GMT -5
December check-in.
I commend to your attention the book STONEWALLED for its detailed descriptions of the tactics (including ad hominem attack) used by government and others to distract, so as to avoid addressing the merits of a subject. The author, Sharyl Attkinsson, an award winning investigative journalist, cites chapter and verse of specific instances of the use of each of the diversionary tactics - most instructive.
Thanks for all the anonymous posts since my last effort. I hope those who view the site will consider their contents in light of what has gone before.
Merry Christmas to all. Richard M. Coleman Georgetown AB ’57, LL. M. ‘61
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quickplay
Silver Hoya (over 500 posts)
Posts: 733
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Post by quickplay on Dec 7, 2014 18:17:16 GMT -5
Another form of propaganda is to...
You get the point.
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tashoya
Blue & Gray (over 10,000 posts)
Posts: 12,297
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Post by tashoya on Dec 7, 2014 22:56:54 GMT -5
December check-in. I commend to your attention the book STONEWALLED for its detailed descriptions of the tactics (including ad hominem attack) used by government and others to distract, so as to avoid addressing the merits of a subject. The author, Sharyl Attkinsson, an award winning investigative journalist, cites chapter and verse of specific instances of the use of each of the diversionary tactics - most instructive. Thanks for all the anonymous posts since my last effort. I hope those who view the site will consider their contents in light of what has gone before. Merry Christmas to all. Richard M. Coleman Georgetown AB ’57, LL. M. ‘61 Another way of avoiding the merits of the subject, apparently, is to completely ignore the dissenting opinions and dismiss them out of hand as invalid. Is that covered in the book? It's better than diversionary in a way. It requires zero effort or thought.
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Post by strummer8526 on Dec 8, 2014 13:21:07 GMT -5
I've officially decided that hoyaloya is a brilliant piece of performance art.
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ksf42001
Silver Hoya (over 500 posts)
Posts: 901
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Post by ksf42001 on Dec 8, 2014 13:56:49 GMT -5
Edited. Please avoid insults to posters. --Admin
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