Boz
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Post by Boz on Aug 19, 2014 14:01:37 GMT -5
As for any history of police abuse in Ferguson, I am not informed enough to comment on that. Though that article doesn't paint a pretty picture, to be sure. I was speaking of reported/alleged abuse in the aftermath of the shooting.
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Post by rustyshackleford on Aug 19, 2014 17:01:38 GMT -5
I said the language was a little strong. I don't think it makes you racist, Elvado, but the damage to property by such a small number of people and the presence of Rev Al do not deserve nearly the attention you seem so intent on giving them, especially in light of the deadly serious issues being discussed. Though you stated that the cop should suffer the full weight of the law if guilty, you focus on issues which are pretty much irrelevant in the grand scheme of things. I know it's difficult, but try to see yourself from the perspective of those on the other side of the fence. While your focus on a few looters may not make you a racist, my friend, rest assured that it certainly makes you look like an a$$hole. We all know the looters are wrong. The Rev. Al thing is pretty irrelevant but that article's dismissal of the riots and violence in Ferguson by elements that are 'protesting' is pretty damning in the context of the statement you made in terms of seeing things from the other side. There are videos of molotov cocktails, bottles and rocks hurled at cops. This isn't just damage to the property of a number of people (which isn't merely some insurance claim issue by the way - it is that anarchy and fear has been visited upon innocent people as a result of the violent elements of the protest - blue collar store owners aren't some bourgeois who can have their store trashed and unusable for a month because they have hundreds to roll around in). Gunshots victims are now a daily occurrence including people shooting at cops and the national guard. When it gets dark it seems like a war zone. Michael Brown should be the tragedy and main story here but when you have persistent violence raging for over a week (and not just due to 'military escalation' either as the first instance occurred before riot police were called) it understandably detracts from the national attention the initial incident should receive. The sad thing about this is that this violence is occurring despite the main part of the community in Ferguson trying to stop it. There have been numerous community leaders trying to prevent looting and rioting (including the incident monday night where members of the community physically created a wall to stop rioters from charging the police). If you're a cop and you have a group of hundreds of people on an intersection protesting/becoming more enraged and have molotov cocktails and bottles being thrown at you how would you respond? If your answer is just let them rage, loot, burn and commit indiscriminate acts of violence (see Radley Balko and his liberatarian ilk) on innocent stores, people and houses then your solution is worse than 'militarization'. At the end of the day the Michael Brown killing is a tragedy and possibly a criminal one. It should be adjudicated based upon the facts using the criminal justice system. The cops shouldn't be trying to assassinate character in the public domain (I think the robbery does have an important role in terms of the potential reaction it might have been responsible for provoking in Brown during the confrontation and for the fact that Johnson may not be a very trustworthy witness) and reporters shouldn't be drawing maps to Wilson's houses or tweeting out license plates of those at a rally to support Wilson. The cops shouldn't be arresting reporters for not moving quick enough in a mcdonalds and the public should recognize they're dealing with violent and threatening situations as well despite the fact that Don Lemon is only on side of the lines. Luckily, it seems like tribalism and extremism is taking over so I'm sure we'll have a number of satisfying conclusions to all of this.
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Post by strummer8526 on Aug 19, 2014 18:30:22 GMT -5
As far as the whole "convenience store video is just character assassination" argument, is it really? Yes, it is! Doesn't his behavior immediately prior to his encounter with law enforcement tell us something about how he might have reacted when confronted by a cop? A kid who's just walking down the street reacts differently to law enforcement than a guy who just ripped off a store and knows cops might be onto him. No, petty theft does not justify shooting him. I just think it might provide a little insight into the victim's state of mind and might provide some indication of how he acted and why. Totally irrelevant. TC is right. Releasing the video and later having to "clarify" that it had nothing to do with the victim being shot is nothing but character assassination. His "state of mind" matters not. He tried to surrender, and still was executed. That's what counts here. I give up, Strummer. Based on your posts in this thread, you really are clueless. I guess there is little doubt where you stand in this Pew poll... Ferguson reveals depths of racial divideSo how many times do the "protestors" get to shoot at the police before there's a change in the narrative of the overbearing police force crushing the innocent townfolk? Do you believe that the overbearing police are not crushing the innocent town folks? These issues go far beyond this unfortunate, incendiary incident. If police in Ferguson treat journalists like this, imagine how they treat residentsNo one condones protester violence. But there has been virtually none. This incident started when the cop cursed the kids while ordering them out of the street. These people live under conditions I'll bet you would never tolerate in your community. The vast majority of the violence has come from the police, not the other way around. Some people's views I guess I will never understand... A lot to address here. First, I think the reason our opinions differ at this point is not because of some wildly divergent worldviews. I think it's caused primarily by the fact that I'm just not yet convinced that we know what happened out in that street. So far, there are indications the officer was in the wrong, and that may prove to be true. But any potential investigation and fact-finding that might have occurred has taken a real backseat to all the post-shooting nonsense--the protests, the police response to the protests, the response to the police response to the protests, the media circus, and now the ongoing violence each night. Last I heard, they're doing autopsy number three, which is two more autopsies than I realized could be performed on a body. I'm just waiting until there is a definitive accounting of how this shooting took place before I condemn anyone. And yes, I know there are eyewitness reports. Some of them, I just don't think are credible. One I find intriguing is the guy who saw the shooting out his window, took a photo of the body in the street, and Tweeted near-contemporaneously that Brown was running away. That's pretty convincing--much more so than the victim's friend who has plenty of reasons to lie about everything. But stories are still coming out, and they're not all consistent. I'm not going to spend the time sifting through all of them, and I don't expect most average people to do it. And I don't think that most of the people attacking the police at this point have critically analyzed the evidence so far. Hence, my inclination to wait until all the facts are out. Onto the release of the convenience store video and whether it's just character assassination: In a perfect world, such a video would not be released in isolation. It would be released after witness interviews are conducted and there is a complete understanding of what happened. If[/i] (and I admit this is a big "if" in this case) there is any evidence that Brown was not just surrendering--for instance, if there's reason to believe that he scuffled with the officer, charged at the officer, or did anything else that might have provoked the shooting--then YES, the video is relevant because Brown's state of mind absolutely matters. Someone who thinks the cops might be after him for something (even something petty) responds differently to police than someone who has done nothing wrong. And while my next argument might not fly in a court of law, the fact remains that the media is not a courtroom and the general public is not a jury: A person exhibiting the propensity to break the law and act violently towards another person DOES have some bearing on whether that person would be peaceful and compliant towards a cop just minutes later. Doesn't Tony Stewart's record of post-race fights and blow-ups demonstrate a temper and an inclination towards violence against his competitors? Wouldn't it be even more telling if, moments before he hit and killed Kevin Ward, he also aggressively ran into another car while yelling "F--- everyone!" to the members of his crew? By the same token, doesn't a video showing someone breaking the law and then menacing the innocent store-owner demonstrate how that person might have behaved towards law enforcement just minutes later? Again, on it's own, it doesn't mean Brown did anything that would justify the shooting. The video should be part of a far deeper and more thorough understanding of all the events of that day. But the public made up its mind against the officer immediately, and so I don't fault the police for responding with the release of the video, even if it was perhaps unnecessary, premature, and out of context. It seems like "unnecessary, premature, and out of context" characterize most aspects of these post-shooting police and media debacles. Turning to your Pew poll, I completely agree that this raises important issues about race, not to mention police training, the use of deadly force as opposed to non-lethal methods, and the relationship and expectations for police and the populations they police. If it's not clear already, I also have next to no confidence in the investigation that's currently taking place, though I hope that at some point, investigating will take priority over stopping people from burning stores down. And if you asked me a few days ago if I thought the police response to the shooting had gone too far, I probably would have said "Yeah, they seem to be overdoing it with all the military equipment and stuff." But I don't think an overreaction by the police justifies the subsequent behavior of the "protesters." In fact, it becomes much harder to tell whether the police really did overreact in the first place because, apparently, if they don't behave like a military force, they get Molotov cocktails lobbed at them, and people shoot each other in the streets. I cosign Boz's response to the media portion of your post.
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Elvado
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Post by Elvado on Aug 19, 2014 18:48:01 GMT -5
I am having a hard time reading these posts due to my spontaneously fractured orbital bone...
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hoyainspirit
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Post by hoyainspirit on Aug 19, 2014 21:02:44 GMT -5
I have said repeatedly that the violent protesters and looters should be dealt with appropriately. Indeed, persons from outside the Ferguson community appear to be the agitators of much of that nonsense, from what I have read and heard. On the first day of the protests, cops routinely had rifles pointed at nonviolent citizens. The military doesn't even do that. Those police clearly were overarmed and undertrained. As far as the leadership is concerned, I steadfastly maintain that such poor job performance should lead to the loss of job leadership positions. I know it's difficult for those who have no experience in such an environment to understand what it means to be "on the other side of the fence." For example, I struggle to understand the life of those living in troubled areas of the Middle East or central Africa. I just don't possess a frame of reference which allows me to really comprehend that life, though I try, especially during quiet moments of reflection. I feel certain that many who read this board find themselves in this same position with regard to those persons living in those St. Louis County towns. While that example may be extreme in that the worst day in Ferguson doesn't come within an order of magnitude of life in say, Syria, Iraq, or the Central African Republic, I think those reading this understand the overall point. While Brown's murder sparked these tragic events, the protests represent more than just anger at his execution. They represent the frustration of people abused by those sworn to protect them, by a system in which justice is not blind but rather sees color and whose scales are heavily weighted against them. Even Rand Paul, of all people, recognizes this, though he couches his argument in terms of the evil of "Big Government". Quoting from his op-ed article posted on Time.com, " Given the racial disparities in our criminal justice system, it is impossible for African-Americans not to feel like their government is particularly targeting them". For Ferguson residents, "reported/alleged abuse in the aftermath of the shooting" represents nothing more than an extreme extension of the abuse with which they must live daily. This article certainly corroborates the "hypotheticals" posited in the Vox piece. Though I lack a frame of reference to understand life in troubled parts of the world, as a person of color living in New Orleans, a city with its own history of police abuse of its citizens, so much so that NOPD operates currently under a Federal Consent Decree, I do understand how the Ferguson residents feel. That Slate article I linked in the previous paragraph could have been written about New Orleans and its surrounding communities. I wont bother to discuss the atrocities committed in the post Katrina chaos. I will relate one of many incidents which I have experienced in my lifetime. While riding my bicycle to pick up take out dinner at a Chinese restaurant, a car with four undercover cops almost ran over me. The four cops jumped out, slammed me against the hood and slapped on the handcuffs. Scared the living $hit out of me, especially since I am no criminal. As it turns out, one of the cops was a cyclist, and recognized the bike I was riding costs much more than most bikes seen in the low to moderate income neighborhood through which I was riding. The first thing out of this guy's mouth was, "Where did a N-word like you steal that expensive ass bike?" For one of the few times in my life, I found myself at a loss for words, which was probably a good thing. Fortunately, when one owns a reasonably expensive bicycle, one generally registers it with the police, which I had done. Though I ultimately was turned loose, I nonetheless felt embarrassed and humiliated, in addition to suffering a bruise to my arm. Lots of good my fancy education and good job did in that situation. All the cops saw was a N-word on an expensive bike. Something untoward must have been at play. So, yes, my perspective in life leads me to strong opinions regarding the underlying reasons for these protests. Believe me, I don't condone violence and looting, but I do understand where those people are coming from. They are tired of being f&cked with. Finally, I am grateful that, for the most part, the discussion in this thread has been at least respectful amongst those of us with differing points of view.
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jgalt
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Post by jgalt on Aug 19, 2014 21:23:52 GMT -5
Turning to your Pew poll, I completely agree that this raises important issues about race, not to mention police training, the use of deadly force as opposed to non-lethal methods, and the relationship and expectations for police and the populations they police. If it's not clear already, I also have next to no confidence in the investigation that's currently taking place, though I hope that at some point, investigating will take priority over stopping people from burning stores down. And if you asked me a few days ago if I thought the police response to the shooting had gone too far, I probably would have said "Yeah, they seem to be overdoing it with all the military equipment and stuff." But I don't think an overreaction by the police justifies the subsequent behavior of the "protesters." In fact, it becomes much harder to tell whether the police really did overreact in the first place because, apparently, if they don't behave like a military force, they get Molotov cocktails lobbed at them, and people shoot each other in the streets. The difference is that very few of the protestors are throwing rocks and things, but ALL of the police are carrying riot gear and machine guns and armored vehicles (tanks, cars, etc.). You are absolutely right that this is what they are trained to do, but it doesnt excuse their actions. The training must change. The weaponry available to the police must change. There is just no need for the police to have this time of equipment. And most importantly the police have to been told, publicly, that are wrong- morally and legally- for using these tactics. Stummer, Boz, you know that we often agree on matters like this, but at a certain point the actions of the police, in this incident and many others, are beyond just "unjustifiable". Its counter productive to a civil society, its border-line criminal, and it has to change. There has been a pattern of behavior by police departments in this country for decades that justifies the belief that nearly any action that the police take when responding to demonstrations is too much. You feel that releasing the video of the convenience store is justified because it demonstrate the mind set Brown may have been in during that day. There are hundreds of hours of video showing the police throughout the country and throughout our history using extreme, unjustifiable force against innocent civilians, that should be relevant too. It demonstrates the mindset of the police and the protestors. I know you know that and you understand the history. And many times I would have agreed with you that we need to wait for all the facts to come out (more or less) and that the protestors just shouldnt become violent if they dont want to be met with police force. But enough is enough. Nothing changes. There are no convictions, no apologies, no remorse on the part of the police, no damning of the criminal violence, no admissions of guilt. In fact the opposite happens: the PD rallies around its own, the officer is characterized as the "victim", the true victim is portrayed as a thug who probably brought it on him self. We can't keep waiting for "facts" and hoping people dont let out their frustrations with violence. That changes nothing.
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Boz
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Post by Boz on Aug 20, 2014 7:40:47 GMT -5
I see your frustration, but I am not sure what you are advocating? Are we not supposed to determine the facts of the shooting? Do you want a rushed investigation?
If you're advocating for overall reform, such as the body cameras for police proposal, then OK; I think that is something that can be implemented. (A warning to lots of people though -- yes, you too, celebrities -- use of this technology will expose a LOT more bad behavior on your part than it does on the part of the police.) And if you want investigations into incidents like these to be handled externally, I think that's a good idea too. And I think most people here agree that police departments need fewer tanks and more/better training.
These are all things I can get behind, but even with all of these, they won't completely prevent questionable shootings from happening in the future. And when these incidents do happen, shouldn't we all want to know exactly what happened?
Or maybe you weren't advocating anything, just expressing a frustrated point of view. I can understand that.
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hoyainspirit
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Post by hoyainspirit on Aug 20, 2014 7:46:17 GMT -5
Or maybe you weren't advocating anything, just expressing a frustrated point of view. I can understand that. Exactly, Boz. Just sharing my views with a community whose opinion I value and respect (usually ), even when it differs from my own.
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quickplay
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Post by quickplay on Aug 20, 2014 10:02:40 GMT -5
I am having a hard time reading these posts due to my spontaneously fractured orbital bone... "The Gateway Pundit can now confirm from two local St. Louis sources that police Officer Darren Wilson suffered facial fractures during his confrontation with deceased 18 year-old Michael Brown. Officer Wilson clearly feared for his life during the incident that led to the shooting death of Brown. This was after Michael Brown and his accomplice Dorian Johnson robbed a local Ferguson convenience store." I don't know if "confirm" means what they think it means. But here's a biased, fringe site that takes an unverfied anonymous claim that nobody else picks up on or can confirm. Good enough for me!
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Elvado
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Post by Elvado on Aug 20, 2014 10:22:42 GMT -5
I am having a hard time reading these posts due to my spontaneously fractured orbital bone... "The Gateway Pundit can now confirm from two local St. Louis sources that police Officer Darren Wilson suffered facial fractures during his confrontation with deceased 18 year-old Michael Brown. Officer Wilson clearly feared for his life during the incident that led to the shooting death of Brown. This was after Michael Brown and his accomplice Dorian Johnson robbed a local Ferguson convenience store." I don't know if "confirm" means what they think it means. But here's a biased, fringe site that takes an unverfied anonymous claim that nobody else picks up on or can confirm. Good enough for me! I was unaware the officer was injured. Just having an eye problem myself...
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quickplay
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Post by quickplay on Aug 20, 2014 10:29:25 GMT -5
That's the spirit, stir it up and run away!
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Elvado
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Post by Elvado on Aug 20, 2014 11:13:11 GMT -5
Just my way of saying all of the facts are not yet in.
However based upon your posts, you have them all.
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quickplay
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Post by quickplay on Aug 20, 2014 11:45:18 GMT -5
How does making a snarky comment implying Brown punched and broke the orbital bone of the officer translate to 'all the facts aren't in yet.'
What have I said in any way that indicates I think I have all the facts?
Or is this where you go 'oh geez people are too serious I'm out of here' because your total nonsense is being called out and that makes it less fun?
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Elvado
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Post by Elvado on Aug 20, 2014 11:57:53 GMT -5
You are kidding right?
There are reports that the cop has a fractured orbital bone. Could such a fracture be relevant to what happened that day? Maybe?
I never said Brown hit the cop. That was all you.
I know I was not there. I know a young man is dead and was unarmed. I know a cop shot him.
The rest I have to wait on.
You might try the same.
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quickplay
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Post by quickplay on Aug 20, 2014 12:09:08 GMT -5
"There are reports that the cop has a fractured orbital bone. Could such a fracture be relevant to what happened that day? Maybe?"
There is a single, unverified report using anonymous sources.
"I never said Brown hit the cop. That was all you."
Seriously, just stop. You come onto the board, bait, inflame, and then run away and play coy if called out. It's obnoxious, it reduces the quality of the board, and it's transparent. Grow up.
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TC
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Post by TC on Aug 20, 2014 12:09:57 GMT -5
There are reports that the cop has a fractured orbital bone. Could such a fracture be relevant to what happened that day? Maybe? Where are those reports from? I found some reports on aliens on the interwebs too, could those be relevant to the Michael Brown case? Maybe?
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Elvado
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Post by Elvado on Aug 20, 2014 12:35:01 GMT -5
Continue to insult me and reject what I post. If I am proven wrong regarding facts I have posited, I will apologize when all of the facts are in.
Can I expect the same from you?
As for my need to grow up...pot meet kettle
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TC
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Post by TC on Aug 20, 2014 12:52:18 GMT -5
Continue to insult me and reject what I post. If I am proven wrong regarding facts I have posited, I will apologize when all of the facts are in. Facts. You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means.
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Elvado
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Post by Elvado on Aug 20, 2014 12:58:34 GMT -5
I know exactly what the word means. I have made factual assertions. They may or may not prove to be accurate.
But please continue to belittle my posts.
I wish I had the encyclopedic knowledge of all of the facts around this situation that you seem to possess.
You are truly blessed to have such omniscience.
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quickplay
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Post by quickplay on Aug 20, 2014 13:23:07 GMT -5
"I know exactly what the word means. I have made factual assertions. They may or may not prove to be accurate."
When you make a comment about the cop having a fractured orbital bone, everyone, including you, knows exactly what you're saying. Playing coy, or claiming 'assertion' (I mean, really?) does not change reality.
To make things simpler for you, an assertion and a fact are not interchangable. The gymnastics you are doing to say things while claiming you didn't say anything is really a sight to behold.
How hard is it to either stop spamming with unproven right-wing talking points, OR, actually stand by what you say?
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