hoyainspirit
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When life puts that voodoo on me, music is my gris-gris.
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Post by hoyainspirit on Aug 15, 2014 20:15:26 GMT -5
I said the language was a little strong. I don't think it makes you racist, Elvado, but the damage to property by such a small number of people and the presence of Rev Al do not deserve nearly the attention you seem so intent on giving them, especially in light of the deadly serious issues being discussed. Though you stated that the cop should suffer the full weight of the law if guilty, you focus on issues which are pretty much irrelevant in the grand scheme of things. I know it's difficult, but try to see yourself from the perspective of those on the other side of the fence. While your focus on a few looters may not make you a racist, my friend, rest assured that it certainly makes you look like an a$$hole. We all know the looters are wrong.
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Elvado
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Post by Elvado on Aug 15, 2014 20:30:37 GMT -5
Can't just admit Al's a bad actor, can you?
Makes you either myopic or a very bad judge of character.
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Just Cos
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Post by Just Cos on Aug 15, 2014 21:30:46 GMT -5
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tashoya
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Post by tashoya on Aug 15, 2014 23:43:51 GMT -5
I was also worried about the Rev. Al using this as a pulpit. But I've seen very little in the media about him but still very real interest from those in my family and workplace and the local media. Maybe we're actually getting to a place where we care about real issues? I haven't heard a word about Rev. Sharpton but I have heard about what's actually happening on mainstream news outlets. This has to be a step in the right direction, no? I haven't even seen much in the way of the convenience store part being pushed. I found that different than my expectation.
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jgalt
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Post by jgalt on Aug 16, 2014 1:23:19 GMT -5
We need to ensure someone is always watching the watchers..... ".....Over the past few years, the idea of requiring that police officers make use of so-called “body cams” has gained currency. Note that this is quite different from simply allowing civilians to record on-duty police officers, a right that shouldn’t even be in dispute. Instead of waiting for a world in which every civilian records every encounter with the police, at least some students of law enforcement have argued that police forces themselves should move in this direction. Last fall, Guardian correspondent Rory Carroll reported on the small southern California city of Rialto, where the local police department has affixed small body cams to all of its officers. The results were dramatic. Carroll cites a jaw-dropping study, which found that in the year following the introduction of the body cams in February 2012, public complaints fell by 88 percent while officers’ use of force fell by 60 percent....." www.slate.com/articles/news_and_politics/politics/2014/08/ferguson_police_officers_should_be_forced_to_videotape_themselves_for_our.htmlI think this is a great idea and should be used in many police departments. But it should also probably go along with a complete overhaul of the training practices of those departments. If you need to keep an eye on all your employees all the time to make sure they are not just doing their jobs well, but that they arent committing crimes, then you are a terrible manager (the you here being very broad referring to the great number of political and social groups influence police departments). In my opinion, the officer in this case failed the moment he pull the trigger. Regardless of whether he was justified or not (he wasn't in this case), and officer firing their weapon should be the absolute last resort and should always be looked at as a failure of process and area of opportunity for the depart to improve the way it controls and handles interactions with citizens.
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Elvado
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Post by Elvado on Aug 16, 2014 7:36:17 GMT -5
We need to ensure someone is always watching the watchers..... ".....Over the past few years, the idea of requiring that police officers make use of so-called “body cams” has gained currency. Note that this is quite different from simply allowing civilians to record on-duty police officers, a right that shouldn’t even be in dispute. Instead of waiting for a world in which every civilian records every encounter with the police, at least some students of law enforcement have argued that police forces themselves should move in this direction. Last fall, Guardian correspondent Rory Carroll reported on the small southern California city of Rialto, where the local police department has affixed small body cams to all of its officers. The results were dramatic. Carroll cites a jaw-dropping study, which found that in the year following the introduction of the body cams in February 2012, public complaints fell by 88 percent while officers’ use of force fell by 60 percent....." www.slate.com/articles/news_and_politics/politics/2014/08/ferguson_police_officers_should_be_forced_to_videotape_themselves_for_our.htmlI think this is a great idea and should be used in many police departments. But it should also probably go along with a complete overhaul of the training practices of those departments. If you need to keep an eye on all your employees all the time to make sure they are not just doing their jobs well, but that they arent committing crimes, then you are a terrible manager (the you here being very broad referring to the great number of political and social groups influence police departments). In my opinion, the officer in this case failed the moment he pull the trigger. Regardless of whether he was justified or not (he wasn't in this case), and officer firing their weapon should be the absolute last resort and should always be looked at as a failure of process and area of opportunity for the depart to improve the way it controls and handles interactions with citizens. I could not agree more. The local transit authority installed cameras on every bus. Fraudulent claims plummeted and real claims were validated. I think the placement of body cameras and mandatory use thereof is a win/win. I hope it's use becomes more widespread.
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quickplay
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Post by quickplay on Aug 16, 2014 9:07:51 GMT -5
I just really don't understand the need to stir things up and then play coy when called out, or act insulted like how dare people question your sincerity of focusing on Sharpton.
Feel free to bring up whatever topics you want, but people don't have to play along with your selectively focused outrage. It's not that clever, and it really just serves to reduce the quality of discussion.
An unarmed American was killed, there was looting, and there was a massive overreaction by the police, including violently going after journalists. We can wait for every single fact to come out, but those three things are undeniably true. Can you really not understand why people are rolling their eyes at your need to be the center of trollish attention and then pretend to not understand why people react the way they do? Seriously. Have a little perspective.
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Elvado
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Post by Elvado on Aug 16, 2014 9:14:25 GMT -5
Edited.
I am done here.
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TC
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Post by TC on Aug 16, 2014 11:39:44 GMT -5
Apparently the DOJ told Ferguson Police not to release the robbery video since it was inflammatory and it wasn't a real response to FOIA. Guess what Ferguson Police did anyway?
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Post by strummer8526 on Aug 16, 2014 11:41:51 GMT -5
There are of course elements of race at play here but I think this is the umpteenth example of a much broader trend in America; law enforcement has become un-tethered from any restraints on their use of force if they feel slightly threatened, which it seems is the case constantly now. Police work is difficult, partially because there is a regular element of danger that is part of the gig. But it IS part of the gig and that has to be managed and not by grabbing for the gun/mace at the drop of a dime. If they are going to have our respect for doing a crucial and sometimes dangerous job they are going to have to do it without acting like thugs themselves. It is high time for conservatives to remember their healthy fear of a powerful state and recognize that at all levels the police in this country have WAY too much firepower and too much consent of the governed to use it. Cops are out of control in this country. They are far too aggressive too often. I knew that when non-lethal weapons like pepper spray and the like were introduced it was going to mean they were just going to use a weapon far more often rather than use a less dangerous form of violence at the same rate as before. And it has come to pass. Cops now think you can pepper spray anyone who is frankly annoying them whether from civil disobedience, mental incapacity, or just not being respectful enough. The police unions need to stop protecting rogue cops from real punishment for starters. And every time a cop kills an innocent, we cheer understandably when the family gets a large payout from the civil courts. Of course that money comes from all of us- doesn't bother the police when those payouts are made in the slightest. And the cycle continues. Civil payouts for killing someone without cause need to come from the police coffers themselves- including a fair share from the pension funds. There have to be more severe consequences for absurd situations like say...the LAPD blasting away at two Hispanic women delivering newspapers when they are looking for a single black male....because you know, they made the reckless mistake of also driving a Japanese pick up truck in Southern California no less. "....Early in the morning of February 7, Los Angeles police officers fired approximately 100 shots at a blue Toyota Tacoma pickup truck in which Margie Carranza and her 71-year-old mother, Emma Hernandez, were delivering newspapers. The officers mistook their truck for the gray Nissan Titan Dorner was believed to be driving. Hernandez was hit and Carranza suffered injuries from flying glass. The officers were guarding the home of a high-ranking police official. The city of Los Angeles agreed to a $4.2 million settlement besides the initial $40,000 compensation for their truck.[41][42][43] On the same morning, Torrance police deliberately crashed into and opened fire on a 2006 Honda Ridgeline of a surfer headed for the beach.[41]...." en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christopher_Dorner Wait a minute. Cops fired ONE HUNDRED SHOTS at a truck occupied by two women, one of whom was 71 years old, and they managed to hit one of the women with a non-fatal shot and injure the other women with broken glass (presumably shattered by one of the 98 or so missed shots)? Were their range instructors Storm Troopers? Those cops clearly shouldn't have guns, not because they shoot at random innocent civilians (though that's a good reason too), but because they clearly can't hit the broad side of a Editeding barn. Returning to topics related to the Brown shooting, I definitely think the cameras make sense. The technology is available--might as well be using it. As far as the whole "convenience store video is just character assassination" argument, is it really? Doesn't his behavior immediately prior to his encounter with law enforcement tell us something about how he might have reacted when confronted by a cop? A kid who's just walking down the street reacts differently to law enforcement than a guy who just ripped off a store and knows cops might be onto him. No, petty theft does not justify shooting him. I just think it might provide a little insight into the victim's state of mind and might provide some indication of how he acted and why.
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TC
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Post by TC on Aug 16, 2014 15:15:39 GMT -5
As far as the whole "convenience store video is just character assassination" argument, is it really? Doesn't his behavior immediately prior to his encounter with law enforcement tell us something about how he might have reacted when confronted by a cop? So what? By eyewitness accounts he was shot 35 feet away from the car with his hands up in the process of surrendering. Does it matter whatsoever what happened earlier? You want to release the burglary video in conjunction with a full accounting of the shooting? That sounds like a move you can justify, but probably not a real smart one given that you've had civil unrest because of this shooting for three nights. You want to release the burglary video, barely clarifying that it had nothing to do with the initial encounter, and not release anything more details of the police narrative of the shooting? That's sliming the victim.
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hoyainspirit
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When life puts that voodoo on me, music is my gris-gris.
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Post by hoyainspirit on Aug 17, 2014 12:22:29 GMT -5
Apparently the DOJ told Ferguson Police not to release the robbery video since it was inflammatory and it wasn't a real response to FOIA. Guess what Ferguson Police did anyway? Ferguson PD have succeeded in looking like the most idiotic in the nation since day one. Heads need to roll.
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Post by strummer8526 on Aug 18, 2014 18:35:30 GMT -5
Apparently the DOJ told Ferguson Police not to release the robbery video since it was inflammatory and it wasn't a real response to FOIA. Guess what Ferguson Police did anyway? Ferguson PD have succeeded in looking like the most idiotic in the nation since day one. Heads need to roll. So how many times do the "protestors" get to shoot at the police before there's a change in the narrative of the overbearing police force crushing the innocent townfolk?
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Post by Problem of Dog on Aug 18, 2014 19:09:50 GMT -5
Ferguson PD have succeeded in looking like the most idiotic in the nation since day one. Heads need to roll. So how many times do the "protestors" get to shoot at the police before there's a change in the narrative of the overbearing police force crushing the innocent townfolk? How many of the media have guns and are "shooting at the police"?
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deacon
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Post by deacon on Aug 18, 2014 21:21:41 GMT -5
Times like these allow people to show who they truly are and why I need the ignore function to work on the ProBoards app.
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nathanhm
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Post by nathanhm on Aug 18, 2014 21:43:51 GMT -5
Ferguson PD have succeeded in looking like the most idiotic in the nation since day one. Heads need to roll. So how many times do the "protestors" get to shoot at the police before there's a change in the narrative of the overbearing police force crushing the innocent townfolk? You'd think with all that police presence and the constant arrests they might actually charge someone with shooting at the officers, of course that would require them finding a gun....
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hoyainspirit
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When life puts that voodoo on me, music is my gris-gris.
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Post by hoyainspirit on Aug 19, 2014 1:49:45 GMT -5
As far as the whole "convenience store video is just character assassination" argument, is it really? Yes, it is! Doesn't his behavior immediately prior to his encounter with law enforcement tell us something about how he might have reacted when confronted by a cop? A kid who's just walking down the street reacts differently to law enforcement than a guy who just ripped off a store and knows cops might be onto him. No, petty theft does not justify shooting him. I just think it might provide a little insight into the victim's state of mind and might provide some indication of how he acted and why. Totally irrelevant. TC is right. Releasing the video and later having to "clarify" that it had nothing to do with the victim being shot is nothing but character assassination. His "state of mind" matters not. He tried to surrender, and still was executed. That's what counts here. I give up, Strummer. Based on your posts in this thread, you really are clueless. I guess there is little doubt where you stand in this Pew poll... Ferguson reveals depths of racial divideSo how many times do the "protestors" get to shoot at the police before there's a change in the narrative of the overbearing police force crushing the innocent townfolk? Do you believe that the overbearing police are not crushing the innocent town folks? These issues go far beyond this unfortunate, incendiary incident. If police in Ferguson treat journalists like this, imagine how they treat residentsNo one condones protester violence. But there has been virtually none. This incident started when the cop cursed the kids while ordering them out of the street. These people live under conditions I'll bet you would never tolerate in your community. The vast majority of the violence has come from the police, not the other way around. Some people's views I guess I will never understand...
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Boz
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Post by Boz on Aug 19, 2014 9:01:55 GMT -5
Ummm, I'm sorry, but how is this an argument?
Sorry, Vox, but this is 2014. If you want to document police abuses of residents, then do it. Don't give me some hypothetical based on shoddy reporting and unclear incidents and then ask me to imagine how bad it could be. If that is what passes for "journalism," maybe you need to go back to school.
Let me make two things clear: first, I am not even remotely prepared to comment on the initial shooting. Why? Because I. Do. Not. Know. All. The. Facts. And neither does anyone here or pretty much anyone in the media. If you want to comment about how you don't trust the investigation to find the truth, that is a fair piece of skepticism and I won't gainsay you. But if you say you know what happened, you are lying. Or at the very least, deluding yourself.
Second, as a primarily conservative person with major libertarian tendencies, I am unfathomably troubled about the militarization of the police force. I find it extremely disturbing. And I do not think that the majority of police are well trained enough either for the proper use of the overwhelming force with which they have been provided, nor, frankly, for handling situations like this. I have many friends who are police officers, and they are all good people who want to do well. But just as protest crowds often do things that people wouldn't even contemplate doing as individuals (mob mentality), I think police who are feeling overwhelmed by a circumstance, well, it is easy for them to lose both their humanity and forget their training as well.
So, do I believe that the police have handled this situation badly? Yes, I do.
But here's something: I try to look up and find reports about police brutality in Ferguson. You know what always comes up? Those two Washington Post and Huff Post journalists. Yes, the police have arrested others and non-journalists, to be sure. And no, I don't think those two probably should have been arrested (but again, this is another situation where not all the facts have been reported). But I am not finding a lot of reports about brutality, or anything of that nature.
But that sure doesn't keep outlets like Vox from doing their best to fan the flames. That article that was just linked is one of the shoddiest pieces of work I have ever read, even in talking about the alleged abuse of journalists, let along the non-documentation of the violence against residents that we are supposed to "imagine." Take the Don Lemon clip they posted, for example, where the Vox reporter claims Lemon is being "shoved" and "physically forced to leave the area." Umm, nothing of the sort happened. Yes, the officer yelled. Police have to do that, you know. And yes, he was cordoning Lemon -- as well as others -- into an area. At no point was Lemon told he had to leave, he had to shut his camera off or anything that would infringe on his First Amendment rights. Let alone any physical abuse. He was being cordoned off. There is nothing wrong with that.
Then there was the other video from Mustafa Hussein, where the incriminating part was very conveniently not caught on camera. The only part caught on camera was the police captain acting very responsibly. I am not in the tank for the police, but sorry, journalists. You have to do a lot better than that. Or, I guess you don't since there are irresponsible outlets like Vox who will not question anything you give them if it fits their narrative.
Do I believe the police should have been using tear gas? Absolutely not. But if you know that they are, and if you try to set up your cameras in a non-authorized area, well, there's a pretty good damn chance you are going to get tear gas in your face.
Let me repeat one more time that I do not like that the police have this military level equipment at their disposal. And also that they are not trained well enough to use that force, IMO. But, in our rush to condemn the police and their performance, let's also remember that the Constitution/Bill of Rights -- which is ironically being trumpeted so loudly now by the very people who also like to call it a dead document created by dead white men -- guarantees the right to peacefully assemble. Much of the assembly I have seen has been peaceful. But let's not pretend that all of it has.
Oh, and by the way, for our administration: Please don't make me laugh by saying that journalists should never be threatened. You have done exponentially more to threaten freedom of the press than anything that has gone on in Ferguson.
Now. Having ogtten that off my chest, I'll be over in the Patricia Heaton thread if anyone wants to talk about how awesome Guardians of the Galaxy is.
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TC
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Post by TC on Aug 19, 2014 11:43:24 GMT -5
conveniently not caught on camera. The only part caught on camera was the police captain acting very responsibly. I am not in the tank for the police, but sorry, journalists. You have to do a lot better than that. Or, I guess you don't since there are irresponsible outlets like Vox who will not question anything you give them if it fits their narrative. On the Hussein thing, the threat was absolutely caught on camera. It's dark so you don't see which officer did it, but you hear the exact quote. I don't know what Vox linked to, but when Twitter exploded on Sunday night about that I checked it out and I heard it. I also think it was overblown and the cop just wanted the camera light turned off because it was interfering, but when you have a narrative going that you're arresting reporters you probably shouldn't threaten to shoot the press. I don't disagree with you on Lemon though, although I don't know what they were thinking with cordoning him while he was live on the air. Again, that's not a great look, and there was no reason to move him. Here's a decent article on Ferguson PD brutality though : www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2014/08/15/the-day-ferguson-cops-were-caught-in-a-bloody-lie.html
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quickplay
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Post by quickplay on Aug 19, 2014 13:07:58 GMT -5
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