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Post by daytonahoya31 on Aug 12, 2014 12:06:38 GMT -5
I have always been and continue to be dumbfounded by the negativity that surrounds Hopkins. By no means is he a star, and like most players, he has some obvious weaknesses in his game, but his play seems to bother many fans on some deeper level that I will never understand. Speaking from my perspective, I see a 6-9 really athletic guy who could be a pro, only he's never put it together. Defensively, he's better than he was when he started out, but offensively he's never going to be there. Maybe he has a Henry like senior season. I hope so. But my thought is that I don't want him taking time from freshmen who are already better and more polished than he is. But like I just said, maybe he makes the leap. I'll have to see it first
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rockhoya
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Post by rockhoya on Aug 12, 2014 12:14:33 GMT -5
More than that, it doesn't matter what kind of leap Mikael makes, he doesn't provide offensive spacing. So if he's starting along with Josh up front, our offense simply won't work. When he's handling the ball on the perimeter, his defender will sag off and hinder our cutters. Josh won't have room to work on the block, either. With that in mind, I'm praying for Copeland to be good enough to start at the four. With Josh, we need four guys around him who can either shoot the ball, or create with the ball in his hands. Mikael does neither Wait what? With a jumper he can't provide spacing? I know he hasn't taken many and made many during games but he has a respectable jumper, has hit a three or two in an actual Hoya uniform and can take many 4s off the bounce from the perimeter there isn't much more you can ask for in terms of spacing especially from someone who is so effencinve in post-defense despite being much lighter than is usually required.
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TBird41
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Post by TBird41 on Aug 12, 2014 12:17:51 GMT -5
I have always been and continue to be dumbfounded by the negativity that surrounds Hopkins. By no means is he a star, and like most players, he has some obvious weaknesses in his game, but his play seems to bother many fans on some deeper level that I will never understand. He's a really bad offensive player that uses 20-25% of the Hoyas possessions. A huge chunk of the atrociously bad offense of the first half of 2012-2013 was because he was playing a large role in the offense. Gunner is the wrong word to describe him, as MCI pointed out, but he wastes a lot of offense possessions (which is just death to a slower paced offense) by forcing shots / turning the ball over while attempting to force shots. He also can't finish around the rim and is a mediocre free throw shooter. And now he fouls a lot. So basically, he turns the offense into a mess and ensures games take forever by being foul prone. Not a lot of positive aspects to his game, honestly--What he brings on defense he more than cancels out by being foul prone and a horrible offensive player. And I understand there weren't a lot of other options last year, but I really, really, really don't want to see Hopkins play that much this year, unless he had the Monstars steal him someone else's game.
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Post by daytonahoya31 on Aug 12, 2014 12:18:51 GMT -5
lol, stop it. If you want to tell me he can improve, I'll reserve judgement and give you the benefit of the doubt. But don't sit here and tell me Mikael Hopkins provides spacing. He doesn't.
If he starts at the five, cool. But for our offense to work like it should, and not be a jumbled mess that it was last season (and this isn't all Mikael's fault), he shouldn't be starting at the four. He's a back to the basket guy without anywhere near elite back to the basket skills. And if Josh is starting, we would already have that covered
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TBird41
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Post by TBird41 on Aug 12, 2014 12:20:46 GMT -5
More than that, it doesn't matter what kind of leap Mikael makes, he doesn't provide offensive spacing. So if he's starting along with Josh up front, our offense simply won't work. When he's handling the ball on the perimeter, his defender will sag off and hinder our cutters. Josh won't have room to work on the block, either. With that in mind, I'm praying for Copeland to be good enough to start at the four. With Josh, we need four guys around him who can either shoot the ball, or create with the ball in his hands. Mikael does neither Wait what? With a jumper he can't provide spacing? I know he hasn't taken many and made many during games but he has a respectable jumper, has hit a three or two in an actual Hoya uniform and can take many 4s off the bounce from the perimeter there isn't much more you can ask for in terms of spacing especially from someone who is so effencinve in post-defense despite being much lighter than is usually required. He's 3/12 from behind the arc for his career. And I hope his jumper / ability to take guys off the dribble leads to points this year, which would be a nice change from the past three years.
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rockhoya
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Post by rockhoya on Aug 12, 2014 12:20:56 GMT -5
I have always been and continue to be dumbfounded by the negativity that surrounds Hopkins. By no means is he a star, and like most players, he has some obvious weaknesses in his game, but his play seems to bother many fans on some deeper level that I will never understand. Exactly. People give him no credit in Kenner relative to other just because, people selectively forget that he was the only player to show up to a cuse game once (which is more important than the sum of the rest of the season for most) and he tries hard. His coach trusts him but for some reason he can do nothing right if you asked hoyatalk. Dude isn't a star but he has more tools than most bigs JT3 has had it's remarkable how eager people are to see him fail. The nature of college athletics is to improve incrementally from year to year and people seem to forget that. Those same people hop on the bandwagon when a player starts playing well smh. I expect big performances out of Hop, Bowen, and Jabril this year.
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Post by daytonahoya31 on Aug 12, 2014 12:24:08 GMT -5
I have always been and continue to be dumbfounded by the negativity that surrounds Hopkins. By no means is he a star, and like most players, he has some obvious weaknesses in his game, but his play seems to bother many fans on some deeper level that I will never understand. Exactly. People give him no credit in Kenner relative to other just because, people selectively forget that he was the only player to show up to a cuse game once (which is more important than the sum of the rest of the season for most) and he tries hard. His coach trusts him but for some reason he can do nothing right if you asked hoyatalk. Dude isn't a star but he has more tools than most bigs JT3 has had it's remarkable how eager people are to see him fail. The nature of college athletics is to improve incrementally from year to year and people seem to forget that. Those same people hop on the bandwagon when a player starts playing well smh. I expect big performances out of Hop, Bowen, and Jabril this year. Name one part of his offensive game that has dramatically improved since he was a freshman. One. And nobody wants to see him fail. Stop being dramatic.
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rockhoya
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Post by rockhoya on Aug 12, 2014 12:24:28 GMT -5
I have always been and continue to be dumbfounded by the negativity that surrounds Hopkins. By no means is he a star, and like most players, he has some obvious weaknesses in his game, but his play seems to bother many fans on some deeper level that I will never understand. Speaking from my perspective, I see a 6-9 really athletic guy who could be a pro, only he's never put it together. Defensively, he's better than he was when he started out, but offensively he's never going to be there. Maybe he has a Henry like senior season. I hope so. But my thought is that I don't want him taking time from freshmen who are already better and more polished than he is. But like I just said, maybe he makes the leap. I'll have to see it first I agreed on most point but had to stop reading....from freshman who are already better and more polished than he is??!? and you're basing this off of what? My favorite played in this class was Paul White and I watched him play a handful of times in hs but he was very unimpressive in Kenner. Copeland projects more as a wing than a post player, and neither have proven anything in an organized setting.
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TBird41
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Post by TBird41 on Aug 12, 2014 12:26:10 GMT -5
The only thing I'll object to is referring to Hopkins as a "gunner". I know many of you like looking at that usage rate info and judging players by it, but how can anyone honestly call any player in III's offense a gunner? I don't care how few minutes he played, the dude averaged a little over 5 shots per game. So it isn't as if he was chucking up shots every other time he touched the ball. If five shots per game makes one a gunner that says more about....well you know where I'm going with this. And frankly as bad as Hopkins was on that usage and efficiency fronts I'll still take him over guys like Nate Lubick who piled up "phony" high efficiency stats over the years by never taking shots unless he found himself underneath the basket with the ball in his hands. No one ever had to guard Lubick because he wanted no part in the burden of scoring. So true MCI. Hopkins at least gave us a chance to put points on the board, though he often missed his shots from close range. In contrast, Lubick for all his value actually hurt the team with his refusal to take the open shot on many occasions. Hopkins has not yet lived up to his potential, and perhaps as a result people have devalued him because the end result has thus far not matched the potential. However, his flaws were much more noticeable because of the lack of depth last year in the 4-5 positions. A full year of Smith and the presence of Whittington and/or Porter would have changed his role completely. Offensive shortcomings would not have been magnified. I think we both want the same thing out of Hopkins--a diminished role on offense where he takes/makes open shots but doesn't try to force anything. I think this year, I'd rather have Lubick from last year than Hopkins from last year, since there are likely to be 4 other guys with offensive skill on the court, unlike last year, but your mileage may vary. One problem Hopkins is going to have playing that role is his trouble finishing open shots. We'll see if he can improve his ability to finish, but Kenner reports were not necessarily encouraging on that front (maybe due to confirmation bias, but I can't say either way).
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rockhoya
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Post by rockhoya on Aug 12, 2014 12:26:25 GMT -5
I have always been and continue to be dumbfounded by the negativity that surrounds Hopkins. By no means is he a star, and like most players, he has some obvious weaknesses in his game, but his play seems to bother many fans on some deeper level that I will never understand. He's a really bad offensive player that uses 20-25% of the Hoyas possessions. A huge chunk of the atrociously bad offense of the first half of 2012-2013 was because he was playing a large role in the offense. Gunner is the wrong word to describe him, as MCI pointed out, but he wastes a lot of offense possessions (which is just death to a slower paced offense) by forcing shots / turning the ball over while attempting to force shots. He also can't finish around the rim and is a mediocre free throw shooter. And now he fouls a lot. So basically, he turns the offense into a mess and ensures games take forever by being foul prone. Not a lot of positive aspects to his game, honestly--What he brings on defense he more than cancels out by being foul prone and a horrible offensive player. And I understand there weren't a lot of other options last year, but I really, really, really don't want to see Hopkins play that much this year, unless he had the Monstars steal him someone else's game. You're using evidence from how he played during the first half of his sophomore season?? Talk about nitpicking...
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rockhoya
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Post by rockhoya on Aug 12, 2014 12:27:33 GMT -5
I have always been and continue to be dumbfounded by the negativity that surrounds Hopkins. By no means is he a star, and like most players, he has some obvious weaknesses in his game, but his play seems to bother many fans on some deeper level that I will never understand. He's a really bad offensive player that uses 20-25% of the Hoyas possessions. A huge chunk of the atrociously bad offense of the first half of 2012-2013 was because he was playing a large role in the offense. Gunner is the wrong word to describe him, as MCI pointed out, but he wastes a lot of offense possessions (which is just death to a slower paced offense) by forcing shots / turning the ball over while attempting to force shots. He also can't finish around the rim and is a mediocre free throw shooter. And now he fouls a lot. So basically, he turns the offense into a mess and ensures games take forever by being foul prone. Not a lot of positive aspects to his game, honestly--What he brings on defense he more than cancels out by being foul prone and a horrible offensive player. And I understand there weren't a lot of other options last year, but I really, really, really don't want to see Hopkins play that much this year, unless he had the Monstars steal him someone else's game. You're using evidence from how he played during the first half of his sophomore season?? Talk about nitpicking... Also 70% from the line for a big is mediocre?? Talk about subjective....
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TBird41
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Post by TBird41 on Aug 12, 2014 12:28:14 GMT -5
He's a really bad offensive player that uses 20-25% of the Hoyas possessions. A huge chunk of the atrociously bad offense of the first half of 2012-2013 was because he was playing a large role in the offense. Gunner is the wrong word to describe him, as MCI pointed out, but he wastes a lot of offense possessions (which is just death to a slower paced offense) by forcing shots / turning the ball over while attempting to force shots. He also can't finish around the rim and is a mediocre free throw shooter. And now he fouls a lot. So basically, he turns the offense into a mess and ensures games take forever by being foul prone. Not a lot of positive aspects to his game, honestly--What he brings on defense he more than cancels out by being foul prone and a horrible offensive player. And I understand there weren't a lot of other options last year, but I really, really, really don't want to see Hopkins play that much this year, unless he had the Monstars steal him someone else's game. You're using evidence from how he played during the first half of his sophomore season?? Talk about nitpicking... The only thing different in his game is that his minutes have been reduced (and his rebounding has improved some)
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Post by daytonahoya31 on Aug 12, 2014 12:28:44 GMT -5
Speaking from my perspective, I see a 6-9 really athletic guy who could be a pro, only he's never put it together. Defensively, he's better than he was when he started out, but offensively he's never going to be there. Maybe he has a Henry like senior season. I hope so. But my thought is that I don't want him taking time from freshmen who are already better and more polished than he is. But like I just said, maybe he makes the leap. I'll have to see it first I agreed on most point but had to stop reading....from freshman who are already better and more polished than he is??!? and you're basing this off of what? My favorite played in this class was Paul White and I watched him play a handful of times in hs but he was very unimpressive in Kenner. Copeland projects more as a wing than a post player, and neither have proven anything in an organized setting. I've seen all the freshmen (except Campbell) extensively. Only thing offensively Mikael has over Copeland is strength. Copeland is a 3/4, who played a ton of stretch four in high school. There is no question that he's more skilled offensively than Mikael. None
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rockhoya
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Post by rockhoya on Aug 12, 2014 12:30:44 GMT -5
lol, stop it. If you want to tell me he can improve, I'll reserve judgement and give you the benefit of the doubt. But don't sit here and tell me Mikael Hopkins provides spacing. He doesn't. If he starts at the five, cool. But for our offense to work like it should, and not be a jumbled mess that it was last season (and this isn't all Mikael's fault), he shouldn't be starting at the four. He's a back to the basket guy without anywhere near elite back to the basket skills. And if Josh is starting, we would already have that covered He's a mobile four with a decent, at worst average jumpshot and an above average face up game for a back to the basket center and is quick and has above average handle. If he can't provide spacing then that's by design of the system. Problem is you're comparing him to Copeland (and maybe Otto) but they are not at all similar players, both those guys will make their money in the NBA by playing on the perimeter...
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Post by daytonahoya31 on Aug 12, 2014 12:34:49 GMT -5
lol, stop it. If you want to tell me he can improve, I'll reserve judgement and give you the benefit of the doubt. But don't sit here and tell me Mikael Hopkins provides spacing. He doesn't. If he starts at the five, cool. But for our offense to work like it should, and not be a jumbled mess that it was last season (and this isn't all Mikael's fault), he shouldn't be starting at the four. He's a back to the basket guy without anywhere near elite back to the basket skills. And if Josh is starting, we would already have that covered He's a mobile four with a decent, at worst average jumpshot and an above average face up game for a back to the basket center and is quick and has above average handle. If he can't provide spacing then that's by design of the system. Problem is you're comparing him to Copeland (and maybe Otto) but they are not at all similar players, both those guys will make their money in the NBA by playing on the perimeter... You just said he has an above average handle. I'm going back to work. lol.
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rockhoya
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Post by rockhoya on Aug 12, 2014 12:36:14 GMT -5
Exactly. People give him no credit in Kenner relative to other just because, people selectively forget that he was the only player to show up to a cuse game once (which is more important than the sum of the rest of the season for most) and he tries hard. His coach trusts him but for some reason he can do nothing right if you asked hoyatalk. Dude isn't a star but he has more tools than most bigs JT3 has had it's remarkable how eager people are to see him fail. The nature of college athletics is to improve incrementally from year to year and people seem to forget that. Those same people hop on the bandwagon when a player starts playing well smh. I expect big performances out of Hop, Bowen, and Jabril this year. Name one part of his offensive game that has dramatically improved since he was a freshman. One. And nobody wants to see him fail. Stop being dramatic. It's not his offensive game that needs improving, it's his mental that's the whole point. Rather than giving the dude credit for what he does right everone wants to crucify him for what he cannot do. He is a solid ft shooter, has a face up jumper that at least has to be guarded, has above average handle for his position, has above average athleticism, is a decent passer, is strong defensively on the low block. He just doesn't finish well, it's not that he physically can't make a layup it's that he's had confidence and timing issues on that front. He's a plus defensive player and if you watch him play in context rather than just look at usage percentages it's clear that a bucket or two more going down a game would be the difference between being the average starter that he is now and a plus starter.
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rockhoya
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Post by rockhoya on Aug 12, 2014 12:38:01 GMT -5
So true MCI. Hopkins at least gave us a chance to put points on the board, though he often missed his shots from close range. In contrast, Lubick for all his value actually hurt the team with his refusal to take the open shot on many occasions. Hopkins has not yet lived up to his potential, and perhaps as a result people have devalued him because the end result has thus far not matched the potential. However, his flaws were much more noticeable because of the lack of depth last year in the 4-5 positions. A full year of Smith and the presence of Whittington and/or Porter would have changed his role completely. Offensive shortcomings would not have been magnified. I think we both want the same thing out of Hopkins--a diminished role on offense where he takes/makes open shots but doesn't try to force anything. I think this year, I'd rather have Lubick from last year than Hopkins from last year, since there are likely to be 4 other guys with offensive skill on the court, unlike last year, but your mileage may vary. One problem Hopkins is going to have playing that role is his trouble finishing open shots. We'll see if he can improve his ability to finish, but Kenner reports were not necessarily encouraging on that front (maybe due to confirmation bias, but I can't say either way). Kenner reports where his fg percentage was way above 60% were not very encouraging? Now I see the problem..
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rockhoya
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Post by rockhoya on Aug 12, 2014 12:39:28 GMT -5
You're using evidence from how he played during the first half of his sophomore season?? Talk about nitpicking... The only thing different in his game is that his minutes have been reduced (and his rebounding has improved some) Basketball isn't played in an excel spreadsheet there are more variables to the equation than what raw numbers indicate....
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rockhoya
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Post by rockhoya on Aug 12, 2014 12:43:27 GMT -5
I agreed on most point but had to stop reading....from freshman who are already better and more polished than he is??!? and you're basing this off of what? My favorite played in this class was Paul White and I watched him play a handful of times in hs but he was very unimpressive in Kenner. Copeland projects more as a wing than a post player, and neither have proven anything in an organized setting. I've seen all the freshmen (except Campbell) extensively. Only thing offensively Mikael has over Copeland is strength. Copeland is a 3/4, who played a ton of stretch four in high school. There is no question that he's more skilled offensively than Mikael. None Yeah what's your point nobody on the history of this board suggested that Mikael is more skilled.... I was making the point that you can't compare the two then harp on how Mikael is lacking in certain areas when those areas Copeland only excels at because they are more suited for the 3. Copeland does not have the length or the strength to hold his own in the paint yet, even in the new BE. It doesn't matter what Copeland played in high school, he isn't in high school anymore. Dajuan Summers, Otto Porter and Jeff Green were all centers in high school what's your point?
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rockhoya
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Post by rockhoya on Aug 12, 2014 12:44:42 GMT -5
He's a mobile four with a decent, at worst average jumpshot and an above average face up game for a back to the basket center and is quick and has above average handle. If he can't provide spacing then that's by design of the system. Problem is you're comparing him to Copeland (and maybe Otto) but they are not at all similar players, both those guys will make their money in the NBA by playing on the perimeter... You just said he has an above average handle. I'm going back to work. lol. Maybe not for a guard but for a post player he has above average handle I don't get what's so funny...
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