Supporting Georgetown Sports...Or Only Basketball?

[DFW HOYA]

For those who still visit ESPN, you may notice that the college sports season is concluding this week with the College World Series. Usually the domain of Sun Belt schools, a a pair of US News Top 20 schools are in the final, with Vanderbilt one game away from the national title, taking the first of a three game series vs. Virginia.

Despite an athletic tradition which is more akin to Tulane than Tennessee, the Dores have a spirited following at the CWS in Omaha and among their fans of other sports. Which raises the question--if this was Georgetown, how would you support a run like this?

It's no secret that fan support is lacking in many of today's Georgetown sports. Lacrosse is fully funded but attendance has dropped by half in the last five years. Women's basketball can't draw 750 a game, a nationally ranked men's soccer team even less. Football drew only 2,225 a game last year, of course, the ambiance of the MSF and the W/L record can't be overlooked, either.

And yet, there are some 8-12,000 fans a game that go to Verizon faithfully every game, every year. Yes, winning matters, and yes, facilities do, too. But if fortunes turned and baseball made a Vanderbilt-like run to the CWS, or lacrosse went to the Final Four, would Hoya fans support them? Or has the GU fan base become so narrow that it won't consider supporting other teams?

[centercourt400s]

Personally I'm on board only for men's basketball. I didn't attend the university and my connection is simply that I grew up a fan of the men's basketball program because my father was connected to the program and took me to games. I'll live and die with men's basketball, am a season ticket holder and attended every home game last season but I have no interest in any other Georgetown sport. There are plenty of fans like me who like the team for various reasons but who didn't attend Georgetown, in fact I'd imagine that at least half of the faithful at home games aren't Georgetown alumns (just a feeling, no data to support this). Expecting that non-alumni fans might support sports like lacrosse, soccer and even women's basketball is quite a stretch.

The answer to your question is that the non-alumni fan base is extremely narrow and probably always will be. Other sports are probably only going to draw alumni support.

[hoyasaxa2003]

I think centercourt definitely hit on a major factor - the Georgetown basketball program has fans among non-alumni, which is definitely a unique phenomenon for Georgetown basketball which does not translate to Georgetown's other sports.

While I graduated over 10 years ago, I recall from when I was on campus that many of the Georgetown students really could not care less about sports, including basketball. Granted, those were the Esherick years and Georgetown basketball had not really seen any significant success since the Iverson years, but still, I think overall sports enthusiasm was pretty low.

I have no idea if the modern student body feels differently, but I would imagine it's much the same. If so, I would not expect other sports to have significant support. I do think if you were to put a winner on the field of another sport, that enthusiasm would mildly increase (for example, football saw a small uptick in interest a few years ago when we actually won a few games), but I would not expect anything substantial.

[dungeon ball]

Jun 24, 2014 7:58:44 GMT -5 DFW HOYA said:

For those who still visit ESPN, you may notice that the college sports season is concluding this week with the College World Series. Usually the domain of Sun Belt schools, a a pair of US News Top 20 schools are in the final, with Vanderbilt one game away from the national title, taking the first of a three game series vs. Virginia.

Despite an athletic tradition which is more akin to Tulane than Tennessee, the Dores have a spirited following at the CWS in Omaha and among their fans of other sports. Which raises the question--if this was Georgetown, how would you support a run like this?

It's no secret that fan support is lacking in many of today's Georgetown sports. Lacrosse is fully funded but attendance has dropped by half in the last five years. Women's basketball can't draw 750 a game, a nationally ranked men's soccer team even less. Football drew only 2,225 a game last year, of course, the ambiance of the MSF and the W/L record can't be overlooked, either.

And yet, there are some 8-12,000 fans a game that go to Verizon faithfully every game, every year. Yes, winning matters, and yes, facilities do, too. But if fortunes turned and baseball made a Vanderbilt-like run to the CWS, or lacrosse went to the Final Four, would Hoya fans support them? Or has the GU fan base become so narrow that it won't consider supporting other teams?

For me, non-basketball sports only provide interest when they are in the midst of a successful season. My wife and I (both alums) watched the soccer final four on TV a couple years ago when Georgetown was in it. I'd probably feel the same about baseball and lacrosse. But actually making the trip down to the campus for a game? We live in the Bethesda area, and would only probably go if the weather was super nice and we were doing something else in the area. But for basketball, we were willing to hitch hike through 2 feet of snow to make it to the NIH metro to go to the Villanova game. Sad but true.

Oh, and football? Never, not a chance.

[HoyaSinceBirth]

Hey Dungeon the baseball team plays over by Montgomery mall next to the Ice Skating rink where the Bethesda Big Train baseball team plays, so you could probably check out the baseball team pretty easily

I am a big fan of all of Georgetown's sports. As a member of Hoya Blue I attended a sporting event for almost every single one of our sports at some point in my 4 years (minus Track and field, Cross county,and Sailing (which is sad since those are some of our most successful sports)). I donate to the soccer programs in addition to basketball. I do not care at all about football, but I still went to almost every single football game to support the school.

I think the school bused some students when the Men's Soccer team made the final 4 and national championship game 2 years ago. I don't know how many non student fans there were there since I was unable to make the trip, but I think we had support there. Winning attracts followings. I think if we were in the college world series we would get a decent number of people attending.

[SFHoya99]

Why is this even a question?

* Small school
* Lack of historical success in baseball
* Scattered Alumni Base
* Off campus games
* Location with professional sports and many transplants

[PhillyHoya]

Jun 24, 2014 10:40:10 GMT -5 SFHoya99 said:

Why is this even a question?

* Small school
* Lack of historical success in baseball
* Scattered Alumni Base
* Off campus games
* Location with professional sports and many transplants

Also for on-campus sports, weekday games are a hard draw and it's difficult to access campus on weeknights.

[calhoya]

Big supporter of most of the athletic programs, particularly basketball, the cross country and track teams and the soccer programs. Have even watched the football team over the internet. That said, I am in the small minority and it is not unusual for most universities to have fans focused on one or two sports only. Basketball supports the athletic program and draws national attention. I attended the Hoya soccer games at Cal and Stanford last year and the crowds at those schools were very small considering the reputation of those programs and the quality of the Hoya team.

[Nevada Hoya]

I think everybody on this board knows what other sports I support in addition to bball. In fact, I will be cheering on some current students and alumni this week at the USATF national track and field meet in Sacramento. Most of the money I donate to GU goes to the men's and women's track and field and cross country teams. Sadly, these sports are some of the most poorly fan supported at Georgetown.

[concord]

Vanderbilt isn't exactly a random Top 20 school that happens to have a good baseball team this year. They've been in at least the regional finals playoffs every year since 2006, played in the College World Series in 2011, and count among their recent players 2012 Cy Young winner David Price, Oakland A's #1 starter Sonny Gray, Pirates 3B and 2013 All-Star Pedro Alvarez, and 2014 1st round (#14) pick Tyler Beede. Their baseball program is one of the best in the country. If Georgetown had a similar baseball program, hell yeah I would support it.

[reformation]

I think Georgetown support for non bb sports would be comparable to other schools adjusted for size if we have a quality program. Many Gtwn programs are not competitive, so its no surprise that there is not a lot of interest in them.

At an recent event I heard Lee Reed ask the question why is Gtwn the only top academic school competing at high level D1 athletics that has not figured out how to excel at both sports and academics like Vandy, Duke, Northwestern, Stanford etc. He didn't offer an answer, at least publically. I think it has to do with Gtwn's refusal to rationally prioritize the sports we compete in, which is a board of directors and not an ath dept priority. My sense is that this lack of focus on excellence in priority sports and a more rational roster of sports that we compete in will come.

[DFW HOYA]

Jun 25, 2014 22:48:20 GMT -5 reformation said:

At an recent event I heard Lee Reed ask the question why is Gtwn the only top academic school competing at high level D1 athletics that has not figured out how to excel at both sports and academics like Vandy, Duke, Northwestern, Stanford etc. He didn't offer an answer, at least publically. I think it has to do with Gtwn's refusal to rationally prioritize the sports we compete in, which is a board of directors and not an ath dept priority. My sense is that this lack of focus on excellence in priority sports and a more rational roster of sports that we compete in will come.

Two issues here.

1. "Lack of focus on excellence in priority sports" is a bit misleading, in that Georgetown has identified by full scholarship support those sports its wants to lead in: basketball, track, lacrosse, and most recently, soccer. Of these, women's basketball and men's lacrosse have underperformed, while track continues to be hugely under-invested in facilities, even moreso than the spartan nature of the other teams. Georgetown is home to a nationally recognized track program that has not had a track of its own in 18 years to even practice on, much less host meets at. Imagine if Stanford football or Duke basketball was practicing at area high schools because the school wouldn't give them a place to play. The focus is there, the delivery is not.

2. "A more rational roster of sports" suggests that Georgetown is sponsoring the wrong sports. In fact, the roster correlates very closely to the academic peers Georgetown aspires to. It does not offer wrestling, gymnastics, ice hockey, or rifle, sports which don't fit this cohort. And with the exception of fringe sports like fencing, squash, or water polo, Georgetown substantially offers the same sports as Stanford, Duke, and the Ivies. Were Georgetown to aspire to, say, Seton Hall, it would be a program with no track and field, no lacrosse, no football, no tennis, no crew, no sailing...and no national post season performance. St. John's dropped six men's sports a decade ago to boost basketball and and their standing has gone down, not up, in the remaining sports.

[Filo]

This is a good discussion.

I have recently become very interested in lacrosse. My 6th grader is obsessed with it. He loves Georgetown and loves lacrosse. By the time he is old enough for college, is Georgetown even going to be fielding a lacrosse team? Does anyone have insight as to how the soccer team is managing to excel with the same limitations placed on it as, say, lacrosse? Is it coaching driven?

[Elvado]

My son and I attend basketball and soccer games.

Basketball for all of the obvious reasons and soccer because he is wildly interested in soccer and has developed a friendship with Coach Wiese and the team.

The fact that soccer is so successful right now also makes it more attractive to go to the games. Throw in that they play several games near my home and it is very easy.

[aleutianhoya]

Reformation, I think there's two separate issues baked into your post. First, reasonable minds certainly can disagree about whether Georgetown ought to support as many sports as it does and whether this philosophical decision results in Georgetown having less money or other support for sports at which it can excel. My own suspicion is that there is some truth to that (in terms of administrative support, field space, etc.), but financially, we don't really spend very much on sports like swimming for it to make much of a difference.

The second issue regards the "top academic schools" competing. I disagree with both premises here: that the schools mentioned all excel at both and that we don't. Dealing with the second first, we have a nationally competitive men's basketball program (inarguably higher profile than every school's you mentioned aside from Duke), a cross country program that regularly finishes in the top ten nationally, and two soccer teams that now regularly compete in the NCAA Tournament (and one played for a national title two years ago). While not an NCAA sport, our sailing program is arguably the best in the country. Both lacrosse teams have gone downhill, for sure, but both have had reasonably recent periods of success. Sure, we have programs that stink (field hockey, baseball, etc.), but most schools do. The biggest factor is that we don't have FBS (let alone BCS) football -- all those other schools do -- and that level of football (though it can be a money drain) also necessitates huge investments in administrative personnel and facilities that inure to the benefit of other sports. Of any school not playing that level of football, we may be the single most successful in terms of athletics and academics in the entire country. We can disagree about our exact level of success, but I think we have figured out how to excel at both sports and academics.

Second, how have those other schools all consistently excelled? Stanford clearly is on a different level; no question there. Duke has had more success than we have overall, but I don't think the others mentioned have. While they were all good in football last year, NW, Duke, and Vandy are historically terrible (the same as us at our level). None except Duke has our history of basketball success. Each has its own niche where it also has excelled (Vandy in baseball - though only recently; Duke in lacrosse and soccer; NW in women's lacrosse (but anything else?)). But then again so do we.

[2ndRyan]

An interesting phenomenon I have observed among my college age kids is relatively less attachment to one's school teams. My son goes to Furman and has never in two years, to my knowledge, attended an entire football game. Furman plays in the shrinking Southern Conference and made the FCS playoffs last year. He and his frat friends spend their time outside the stadium tailgating. Over the same period he has probably attended more Georgetown basketball games (he is a fan from birth) than Furman games despite Furman having an adequate on-campus arena. My son's roommates father (Furman '78)noted the same behavior and contrasted it with how things were when he was in Greenville.

[valleyhoya]

It seems that Georgetown occupies a unique position in the college sports landscape. We aspire to compete academically with the Ivies, Stanford, Duke, Northwestern, Notre Dame, Vandy, Rice and USC. We aspire to compete athletically at a higher level than the Ivies and comparably to the other group. Yet each of the non-Ivies has FBS football and all but Rice participate in one of the now annointed "Power 5" conferences. Not to mention the resources that each athletic department has available to them: Stanford the most financial resources of any school in the country (public or private), and no land limitations; Duke has a superior basketball brand, very significant financial resources, no land limitations; Northwestern lots of B1G money and a huge endowment, land a little tighter but they have an athletics campus; Notre Dame tons of football money and miles of cheap land in the middle of nowhere; Vandy has SEC money, big endowment and plenty of athletics space; Rice has money and space; USC has money, not as much space but incredible athletic tradition.
So it appears to be an uphill climb for Georgetown to keep up with the athletic Joneses. But I don't think they should give up trying and believe they have made good progress. The Thompson Center/IAC is a HUGE step in the right direction. It provides an immediate boost to our most valuable athletic brand and shows the commitment of the university to its perpetuation. Perhaps the resolution of some long-term issues like the location of the hospital and rebuilding Yates will provide just enough on-campus room to shore up many of the other facilities deficiencies. In the meantime, they are going to continue to field 29 varsity teams and I believe it is in our best interests to support all of them.

[Nevada Hoya]

Jun 26, 2014 8:20:25 GMT -5 DFW HOYA said:

1. "Lack of focus on excellence in priority sports" is a bit misleading, in that Georgetown has identified by full scholarship support those sports its wants to lead in: basketball, track, lacrosse, and most recently, soccer. Of these, women's basketball and men's lacrosse have underperformed, while track continues to be hugely under-invested in facilities, even moreso than the spartan nature of the other teams. Georgetown is home to a nationally recognized track program that has not had a track of its own in 18 years to even practice on, much less host meets at. Imagine if Stanford football or Duke basketball was practicing at area high schools because the school wouldn't give them a place to play. The focus is there, the delivery is not.

+1

Practice at a HS track would be an improvement with what they have. The fact that we are Steeple U is incredible, since the Ellington track, I don't think, has a steeplechase water jump. The distance is less than regulation and only has six lanes.

[RusskyHoya]

Folks here have already touched on a lot of this, but it bears calling out and underlining: Georgetown is attempting to navigate an uncharted path in the college athletics world.

You have a school with an Ivy-aspirational academic mindset (while retaining a distinctly Jesuit identity), which also translates into something like an Ivy-aspirational athletic model. Except that, lacking the massive financial resources of the Ivies, Georgetown can neither sustain the same number of sports, nor ditch scholarships in favor of a need-based financial aid package that gives all middle and lower class students de facto scholarships.

On top of that, the University is trying to maintain a top-flight, revenue generating men's basketball program and compete for the national title in several other sports. During his "President's Event" address at Reunion this year, DeGioia made this explicit distinction: there are the sports where we're trying to compete for the national title (and are resourced accordingly) and there's everything else. The Ivies may have a few national contenders in the sports that require fewer and less severe academic tradeoffs (lacrosse, running, crew and other niche sports), but nothing like Georgetown basketball.

As has been noted, the other academically top-tier schools that have attempted something like this path all have Division I football (and far fewer space constraints). This leaves us with no true model to follow, beyond the one we craft on the fly ourselves. That is a tall task for any athletic department, much less one with the resource constrains and institutional peculiarities of Georgetown.

[DFW HOYA]

Jun 27, 2014 6:29:33 GMT -5 RusskyHoya said:

Folks here have already touched on a lot of this, but it bears calling out and underlining: Georgetown is attempting to navigate an uncharted path in the college athletics world.

To some degree, Villanova also tries to follows this path, spending a little more money on football and proportionately less on sports like rowing and sailing and without the same academic stature that Georgetown has earned over the last 35 years. But the point is still valid. Some have held that Georgetown wants to be Penn in most sports and Penn State in some others. An exaggeration, perhaps, but it speaks to the tightrope the school wants to tread.

FWIW, I would like to think that Georgetown's primary identity is "Catholic", because a "Jesuit identity" can become code words to some that this is somehow at odds with the Church as a whole.