DFW HOYA
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Post by DFW HOYA on Sept 3, 2014 8:27:09 GMT -5
So they scheduled Izzy the Islander and company from TAMUCC out of the Southland Conference. I hear they travel really well so watch for a hostile visiting crowd in the Phone Booth. What's next? University of the Incarnate Word? They play in the same conference. We can do better. Of course they can, but coaches continue to play the hunch that eight wins over forgettable opponents is all that matters in March. It's a short sighted strategy that is not unique to Georgetown. Maybe the fan base got a little spoiled when JTIII scheduled a tougher slate in his earlier years (06-07 featured Old Dominion, Vanderbilt, Duke, JMU, Navy and Michigan, along with Hartford, Fairfield, Oral Roberts, Winston-Salem State). Other than Kansas, what's the big home game in December, Towson? As for Incarnate Word, they can't be far behind, along with Kennesaw State, Houston Baptist, Grand Canyon, and any other school willing to take a guarantee check to play before 5,789 at Verizon Center. After all, Georgetown has variously scheduled NJIT, Longwood, IUPUI, High Point, and Wright State in as many years, while games with George Washington, George Mason, Richmond, Navy, and other regional teams lies fallow. Georgetown can promote Kansas and Syracuse all you want, but the balance of the non-conference schedule simply does not sell, In the era of StubHub fans will continue to avoid season ticket purchases as a result.
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Post by ColumbiaHeightsHoya on Sept 3, 2014 8:36:56 GMT -5
All good points DFW, but a team like Wright State was a smart move. They were talented and were a good test despite the name. I agree I would love the local games you mention although Navy isn't pulling more than 5789 to the game either. I would schedule PA, MD, VA, DC & WV for those early OOC and eliminate some travel for these squads. In addition to those you mention, Marshall, Lehigh, Lafayette, Bucknell, American, Howard, JMU, William & Mary, VCU, and anyone else within 100 miles would be a good start.
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DFW HOYA
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Post by DFW HOYA on Sept 3, 2014 8:48:22 GMT -5
All good points DFW, but a team like Wright State was a smart move. They were talented and were a good test despite the name. I agree I would love the local games you mention although Navy isn't pulling more than 5789 to the game either. Probably not...though Navy drew 7,143 to its only Verizon Center visit in '06. Does anyone know why Georgetown and George Mason have never put together a series? Hoyas played once in Fairfax when the Patriot Center first opened in 1985, and that was it.
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Post by hoyalove4ever on Sept 3, 2014 9:19:36 GMT -5
I, for one, am fine with the recent additions to the schedule. III seems to be gunning for decent, but winnable, games, which is a smart move.
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prhoya
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Post by prhoya on Sept 3, 2014 10:34:42 GMT -5
I like the two games scheduled before the Florida game. It's a new group with many inexperienced players and Josh playing together for the first time before being thrown into the fire vs Florida and other top ranked teams.
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FLHoya
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Post by FLHoya on Sept 3, 2014 11:50:29 GMT -5
Georgetown can promote Kansas and Syracuse all you want, but the balance of the non-conference schedule simply does not sell, In the era of StubHub fans will continue to avoid season ticket purchases as a result. Serious question: in the era of StubHub alluded to above, do folks think there's any realistic(and that's the money word here) combination of non-conference opponents that would meaningfully boost attendance? I understand attendance is down a lot, and complaining about the non-conference home schedule is an annual tradition up there with guessing a player's weight during the Kenner League. But I'm struggling to imagine a scenario where we take this year's non-conference home schedule, add say Ohio State and George Mason as home games, and all of a sudden we have some meaningful boost of season tickets. The trend towards consuming content a la carte vice in one massive package*--whether it's TV channels or basketball tickets--is significant and IDK if GU basketball has a strong enough anchor as the "live sports" thing that seems to be propping up cable package subscriptions. (*And it should be noted the Athletic Dept implemented one potential solution in this sort of situation for this season: they slashed the cost a lot of season package by a significant amount).
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DFW HOYA
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Post by DFW HOYA on Sept 3, 2014 12:48:24 GMT -5
Serious question: in the era of StubHub alluded to above, do folks think there's any realistic(and that's the money word here) combination of non-conference opponents that would meaningfully boost attendance? (*And it should be noted the Athletic Dept implemented one potential solution in this sort of situation for this season: they slashed the cost a lot of season package by a significant amount). Georgetown lost 20 percent of its average attendance last year, and that hits the budget. If Georgetown is asking lower bowl patrons to make significant annual commitments (seat gift + tickets) every year for the likes of St. Francis NY, Texas A&M-CC, Radford, et al., there is going to be further attrition given that the Big East schedule (sans Syracuse, Louisville, UConn, et al.) is not that compelling. Back in the Capital Centre days, fans had fewer choices to dump their tickets but keep them for the big games. Now, there is almost a disincentive to buy the package. Yes, there are scenarios where a strong home schedule is more popular among fans, but coaches as a group tend to push against this and will generally take the ESPN-subsidized trip to (choose one: Maui, Bahamas, Orlando, Vegas) and play before 300 people instead. A non-conference home schedule that would rotate Maryland/Virginia and Syracuse/UConn in alternating years, provide 2 games each year versus a collection of George Mason, GW, Navy, Old Dominion, American, and Richmond, and two wild card games would make an impact on tickets, reduced guarantee fees, and still allow room for the gratuitous Christmas holiday trip.
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SSHoya
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Post by SSHoya on Sept 3, 2014 13:34:54 GMT -5
Serious question: in the era of StubHub alluded to above, do folks think there's any realistic(and that's the money word here) combination of non-conference opponents that would meaningfully boost attendance? (*And it should be noted the Athletic Dept implemented one potential solution in this sort of situation for this season: they slashed the cost a lot of season package by a significant amount). Georgetown lost 20 percent of its average attendance last year, and that hits the budget. If Georgetown is asking lower bowl patrons to make significant annual commitments (seat gift + tickets) every year for the likes of St. Francis NY, Texas A&M-CC, Radford, et al., there is going to be further attrition given that the Big East schedule (sans Syracuse, Louisville, UConn, et al.) is not that compelling. Back in the Capital Centre days, fans had fewer choices to dump their tickets but keep them for the big games. Now, there is almost a disincentive to buy the package. Yes, there are scenarios where a strong home schedule is more popular among fans, but coaches as a group tend to push against this and will generally take the ESPN-subsidized trip to (choose one: Maui, Bahamas, Orlando, Vegas) and play before 300 people instead. A non-conference home schedule that would rotate Maryland/Virginia and Syracuse/UConn in alternating years, provide 2 games each year versus a collection of George Mason, GW, Navy, Old Dominion, American, and Richmond, and two wild card games would make an impact on tickets, reduced guarantee fees, and still allow room for the gratuitous Christmas holiday trip. Maybe I'm stupid, but I simply make my contribution (lower bowl) and buy two tickets almost out of force of habit of the past 35 years to support the program, without much regard to the non-conference schedule.
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Post by ColumbiaHeightsHoya on Sept 3, 2014 14:03:29 GMT -5
You will always need the casual fan to fill up the spare tickets. That tends to be opposing team fans and is why Ville, UConn & Cuse were at or near capacity. Verizon is just too big. I would pay for a huge curtain that covers up the 400's before hoping that a few marquee OOC games is going to significantly improve the numbers. The late night weekday games for TV purposes also don't help.
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Post by hoyasaxa2003 on Sept 3, 2014 14:47:46 GMT -5
If there is ever a way to renovate McDonough to a higher capacity (like the plan discussed in the early 2000s), I would suggest doing our non-conference games there (except big ones, like Kansas), and then reserving Verizon for the Big East. Not only would it likely result in sell-outs for nearly all the OOC games, it would bolster interest on campus, and give our players a better atmosphere.
I realize with the expense of the IAC, there is likely no appetite for such a renovation of McDonough, but it's something I would love to see.
I am not sure we will ever overcome the 20% reduction in attendance with our conference, unless we get really good and sustain it for a few years. Being good in March always boosts attendance. Unfortunately, we haven't had much of that to help us out in recent years.
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RusskyHoya
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Post by RusskyHoya on Sept 3, 2014 15:06:43 GMT -5
Georgetown can promote Kansas and Syracuse all you want, but the balance of the non-conference schedule simply does not sell, In the era of StubHub fans will continue to avoid season ticket purchases as a result. Serious question: in the era of StubHub alluded to above, do folks think there's any realistic(and that's the money word here) combination of non-conference opponents that would meaningfully boost attendance? I understand attendance is down a lot, and complaining about the non-conference home schedule is an annual tradition up there with guessing a player's weight during the Kenner League. But I'm struggling to imagine a scenario where we take this year's non-conference home schedule, add say Ohio State and George Mason as home games, and all of a sudden we have some meaningful boost of season tickets. The trend towards consuming content a la carte vice in one massive package*--whether it's TV channels or basketball tickets--is significant and IDK if GU basketball has a strong enough anchor as the "live sports" thing that seems to be propping up cable package subscriptions. (*And it should be noted the Athletic Dept implemented one potential solution in this sort of situation for this season: they slashed the cost a lot of season package by a significant amount). Realistic is indeed the money word. To echo what others have said, a significant chunk of attendance has come from opposing team fans. It is unclear what % of attendance is made up of 'casual fans,' but it seems fair to wager that their turnout correlates to the name value and perceived quality of the opponent. Now, where Georgetown has a significant advantage is that we are in a major metropolitan area that has significant alumni representation from basically every prominent state university in the country. Added to that, our arena is not out in the burbs like Villanova or DePaul but right in the heart of downtown. That makes us a much more attractive road game for big state schools and other top-tier programs, who otherwise tend to have little interest in playing a road game against a power program (unless specifically ordered to by the ESPN gods, e.g. as part of a conference challenge). By way of example: when John Beilein brought Michigan to DC, the U of M Club of Washington, DC rented out Clyde's, where Beilein stood on top of the bar and asked the faithful for patience as he set about rebuilding the program. I'm sure they used the time in the area to make contact with targeted recruits as well. Most state schools aren't Michigan, of course, but I'd bet that a lineup of even mediocre power programs (the Washington States, Texas Techs, and South Carolinas of the world) or just-below-power programs (Colorado State, Nevada, etc.) would draw much better than the current arrangement. And I think there are some incentives for those schools to play at Georgetown that might not exist elsewhere. Now, there are plenty of reasons why coaches like/prefer tune-up games, so I don't think the healthy serving of creampuffs is going anywhere. The IUPUIs will always be with us (still better than St. Leo and random schools in Hawai'i). But, at the same time, I think we do have to start scheduling with a much closer eye toward attendance than before. Such is the new competitive and conference landscape.
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RusskyHoya
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Post by RusskyHoya on Sept 3, 2014 15:09:12 GMT -5
If there is ever a way to renovate McDonough to a higher capacity (like the plan discussed in the early 2000s), I would suggest doing our non-conference games there (except big ones, like Kansas), and then reserving Verizon for the Big East. Not only would it likely result in sell-outs for nearly all the OOC games, it would bolster interest on campus, and give our players a better atmosphere. I realize with the expense of the IAC, there is likely no appetite for such a renovation of McDonough, but it's something I would love to see. I am not sure we will ever overcome the 20% reduction in attendance with our conference, unless we get really good and sustain it for a few years. Being good in March always boosts attendance. Unfortunately, we haven't had much of that to help us out in recent years. If you ever wanted to see what unrestricted neighborhood warfare against the University would look like, propose this in a public forum. Likelihood of happening: 0.00%
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GUMBA
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Post by GUMBA on Sept 3, 2014 15:24:55 GMT -5
As DFW and ColumbiaHeights commented, there are plenty of worthy schools within about a two hour drive - Maryland, Virginia, Delaware, and Pennsylvania that could improve the attendance at Verizon and start a more local (albeit lopsided in our favor) rivalry for these early OOC games. If the name of the game is to find a reasonably easy win but not kill our SOS then look at schools in a 150 mile or so radius with an RPI ranking under say 200 which includes Delaware 66, Richmond 71, Towson 84, William & Mary 124, ODU 163, VMI 167, GMU 173, Bucknell 170 and Mount Saint Mary's 196. By comparison, TAMUCC was listed at 233 last year. Other weaker, more local (same time zone) contenders with higher RPIs would be Morgan State 222, JMU 236, Lehigh 238 and Navy 301. None of these schools are from power conferences but they are respectable programs and don't equal St. Leo's or Maryland Eastern Shore. As a season ticket holder I do want a reason to come downtown for a decent game. I'm not suggesting we try and recreate the Big 5 local match-ups that they have in Philly (although it's not a bad idea) but at least we can have some local feeling and perhaps a few assorted visiting fans for these games. Someone can now feel free to post how the Verizon Center professional sports team schedules dictate our game opportunities and kill our ability to schedule decent opponents. That will re-start a flurry of posts regarding the need for an on-campus arena. Anybody reading this from the Advisory Neighborhood Commission 2E please note that such a debate was unintended on my part.
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GUMBA
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Post by GUMBA on Sept 3, 2014 15:28:09 GMT -5
It took me too long to write my post and the on-campus discussion had already started. I'm either prescient or have been reading this board way too long.
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HoyaChris
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Post by HoyaChris on Sept 3, 2014 15:44:14 GMT -5
As DFW and ColumbiaHeights commented, there are plenty of worthy schools within about a two hour drive - Maryland, Virginia, Delaware, and Pennsylvania that could improve the attendance at Verizon and start a more local (albeit lopsided in our favor) rivalry for these early OOC games. If the name of the game is to find a reasonably easy win but not kill our SOS then look at schools in a 150 mile or so radius with an RPI ranking under say 200 which includes Delaware 66, Richmond 71, Towson 84, William & Mary 124, ODU 163, VMI 167, GMU 173, Bucknell 170 and Mount Saint Mary's 196. By comparison, TAMUCC was listed at 233 last year. Other weaker, more local (same time zone) contenders with higher RPIs would be Morgan State 222, JMU 236, Lehigh 238 and Navy 301. None of these schools are from power conferences but they are respectable programs and don't equal St. Leo's or Maryland Eastern Shore. As a season ticket holder I do want a reason to come downtown for a decent game. I'm not suggesting we try and recreate the Big 5 local match-ups that they have in Philly (although it's not a bad idea) but at least we can have some local feeling and perhaps a few assorted visiting fans for these games. Someone can now feel free to post how the Verizon Center professional sports team schedules dictate our game opportunities and kill our ability to schedule decent opponents. That will re-start a flurry of posts regarding the need for an on-campus arena. Anybody reading this from the Advisory Neighborhood Commission 2E please note that such a debate was unintended on my part. If we ever schedule a home game against ODU again, especially at McDonough, I will cease to donate to the program and curl up in a little ball and die. I have been traumatized enough.
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DFW HOYA
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Post by DFW HOYA on Sept 3, 2014 16:19:13 GMT -5
If you ever wanted to see what unrestricted neighborhood warfare against the University would look like, propose this in a public forum. Likelihood of happening: 0.00% There is a solution out there on a McDonough replacement which doesn't involve sending the ANC/OGB into DEFCON status. Whether the University would pursue it, not sure.
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RusskyHoya
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Post by RusskyHoya on Sept 3, 2014 17:09:35 GMT -5
If you ever wanted to see what unrestricted neighborhood warfare against the University would look like, propose this in a public forum. Likelihood of happening: 0.00% There is a solution out there on a McDonough replacement which doesn't involve sending the ANC/OGB into DEFCON status. Whether the University would pursue it, not sure. Oh? Do tell! The best I've been able to come up with is making a deal with Marriott to effectively create a mini-Madison Square Garden on the footprint of the current Key Bridge Marriott site, with a Georgetown-sized arena (12k or so?) topped by hotel rooms/dining/entertainment. Arlington County is chomping at the bit to turn Rosslyn into a 'thing' and could be persuaded to grant all kinds of exemptions/incentives. Bonus: could easily steal 50% or more of the Patriot Center's concert lineup and generate a significant one of its own.
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Post by HoyasAreHungry on Sept 3, 2014 17:38:05 GMT -5
There is a solution out there on a McDonough replacement which doesn't involve sending the ANC/OGB into DEFCON status. Whether the University would pursue it, not sure. Oh? Do tell! The best I've been able to come up with is making a deal with Marriott to effectively create a mini-Madison Square Garden on the footprint of the current Key Bridge Marriott site, with a Georgetown-sized arena (12k or so?) topped by hotel rooms/dining/entertainment. Arlington County is chomping at the bit to turn Rosslyn into a 'thing' and could be persuaded to grant all kinds of exemptions/incentives. Bonus: could easily steal 50% or more of the Patriot Center's concert lineup and generate a significant one of its own. Floating barge arena in the Potomac. Doubles as the boathouse. But in all seriousness, fantastic idea on the Key Bridge idea Russky. A Rosslyn location would be great. Now, how do we get Marriott to foot most of the bill without giving away too much of the revenue for the thing?
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FLHoya
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Post by FLHoya on Sept 3, 2014 18:19:09 GMT -5
If the name of the game is to find a reasonably easy win but not kill our SOS then look at schools in a 150 mile or so radius with an RPI ranking under say 200 which includes Delaware 66, Richmond 71, Towson 84, William & Mary 124, ODU 163, VMI 167, GMU 173, Bucknell 170 and Mount Saint Mary's 196. By comparison, TAMUCC was listed at 233 last year. Other weaker, more local (same time zone) contenders with higher RPIs would be Morgan State 222, JMU 236, Lehigh 238 and Navy 301. A lot of those teams would be part of a smarter non-conference schedule for RPI purposes, no doubt. (Though SOS and RPI aren't really problems for us--if anything, I think we were overseeded in the NCAAs every year from 2010-13 because of it). But to get back to my point in the previous post: what all of those "local" teams have in common (IMO) is none of them would boost season ticket sales. I think DFW's proposal--a big name rotation of Maryland/UVA + Syracuse/UConn/Big Name School Here + some combo of the more appealing local schools like GW* and GMU--is about the best we're ever going to do for a home non-conference rotation in a given year. After all, we have to play the road games in the home-and-homes most of 'em will want, and we're committed to neutral site tourneys for several years out. (*And honestly, even though I got a grad degree from Foggy Bottom during the goshdarned WG season, I don't think they'll drive season ticket sales either). There are too many macro trends working against us that a better non-conference schedule alone won't fix: we lost too many marquee opponents in the Big East schism, the arena is too big and we were too reliant on opposing fans/scalpers, even die-hard Hoya fans are now less willing to spend on season tix when they can choose games a la carte, FS1's bizarre weeknight scheduling encouraged the former, and tickets + donation costs weren't offering value for money. That's not to say we shouldn't improve the non-conference schedule--in fact, it's more important than ever. It's a good thing we signed a deal with Syracuse and reportedly are exploring Pitt and UConn. I'd sign a home and home with Maryland tomorrow. What's more, the steep reductions in many season ticket prices this season were welcome--I'm down to like $20/game for the front row of 118 from $32/game not long ago. But there's a lot of work to do on everything--from the in-game experience at Verizon to not losing to Seton Hall twice--which leads me to believe it'll be a bit of a slog to get that 20% attendance drop turned around. The good news is we'll probably sell out the Syracuse game next year and do a good 15-16K or more for Kansas this year. The bad news is that even the Stonewalls section was only about 55% full of season ticket holders as of a couple weeks ago. That might be the new normal--big games here and there, but a slightly lower average overall. For all the ways we're kind of shockingly like Villanova, the one where we aren't that hurts is the existence of The Pavilion.
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RusskyHoya
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Post by RusskyHoya on Sept 3, 2014 19:14:56 GMT -5
For all the ways we're kind of shockingly like Villanova, the one where we aren't that hurts is the existence of The Pavilion. Maybe... I still maintain that a significant part of the Georgetown program's continuing draw is the fact that we play pretty much every home game in an NBA arena. So many of the top players have one eye on the NBA from the time they hit puberty - what screams "This Way To The League" more than having your home locker room be next to the pros? (I realize there are some things that scream louder, like illicit deals with agents and just plain cold hard cash, but that's a whole 'nother topic). I've always felt that playing at the Cap Center and Phone Booth was an instant validation/elevation of our program's stature that a McDonough Arena Plus could not provide. And darn it, if Marquette can average 15,000+ per season (and that's down from their all-time high around 2006-07), why can't we? Granted, there's less entertainment competition in Milwaukee (how do they not have an NHL team?), and Madison isn't sitting on Milwaukee's doorstep the way College Park is to DC, but still... More pragmatically (since I know the above is heavily weighted toward the personal impression), if we have to rely on casual and opposing fans to bring up our attendance numbers, we have to have the campus be somewhere conveniently accessible. Verizon is that; Georgetown is not.
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