gujake
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Post by gujake on Apr 8, 2014 13:36:24 GMT -5
Last dominant big that carried his team to a chip? Anthony Davis. I don't think there is compelling evidence that you absolutely need elite guards or elite bigs to win a championship. There are lots of different ways to win. This is far from a perfect method, but if you go through a list of MOPs over the last 30 years, you get a pretty even mix of guards, wings, and bigs.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Apr 8, 2014 16:38:45 GMT -5
The numbers don’t back that up though imo.. You can nuetralize a big guy to a certain extent because he is dependant on others to get him the ball.. We see it all the time. Last dominant big that carried his team to a chip? Agree 100% that you have to have the other pieces but still think Guard or Perimeter play is what gets you over the top The answer to your first question is Anthony Davis two years ago. Beyond that, Louisville had Dieng/Harrell/Behanan, Duke had Singler and a very productive month of Zoubek, UNC had Hansbrough, Kansas had Rush/Arthur, and Florida was had Horford/Noah. You can of course name the guards on several of those teams, but really only the two UConn teams have gotten it done without NBA-caliber forwards. Since this thread is in some sense about returning/recruiting guys, my opinion would be that you stockpile bigs. There are tons of 6' dudes who can ball, the number who are 6'9" that can play is a lot smaller. When those big guys prove they can play, they're usually going to leave and get paid. You get a guy like Chris Wright or Markel Starks, they're going to stay around and play four years because like I said, there's a bunch of other 6' guys who can play so no GM's clamoring to throw millions at them. A guy like Otto Porter you basically can get one really good season out of. Which one of those guys carried their team the way Kemba or Bazz did though? The question wasn’t when is the last time a good big won a championship. Obviously if you have a well balanced team that is ideal. All of those players were part of a larger picture. The facts are you can win without really good play from your bigs but not without really good guard play. If that is a fact than guard play has to be more important, how would it not?
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Apr 8, 2014 16:43:22 GMT -5
Last dominant big that carried his team to a chip? Anthony Davis. I don't think there is compelling evidence that you absolutely need elite guards or elite bigs to win a championship. There are lots of different ways to win. This is far from a perfect method, but if you go through a list of MOPs over the last 30 years, you get a pretty even mix of guards, wings, and bigs. Anthony Davis carried a Kentucky team that had 5 1st round picks to a NC? That’s going to be a tough sell for me.. He led them in scoring one game, was he their best player? Yes but he didn’t carry them to a championship I would say Carmello and he’s a Combo Forward
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mfk24
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Post by mfk24 on Apr 8, 2014 18:06:06 GMT -5
I think it all comes down to having a guy who is effective with the ball in his hands and can score at will whether he's a point guard or a wing player/combo forward. Kemba and Shabazz were both small, extremely quick guards who could get into the lane with ease, hit 3s and were virtually unguardable during their respective tourney runs. A guy like that is hard to beat, especially when he is equally effective in shutting down two of the opposing teams best players. The Harrison twins went for a combined 6-16 (3-9 from 3) and 16 pts due in large part to the defense of Napier and Boatright.
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SFHoya99
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Post by SFHoya99 on Apr 8, 2014 18:32:12 GMT -5
Anthony Davis. I don't think there is compelling evidence that you absolutely need elite guards or elite bigs to win a championship. There are lots of different ways to win. This is far from a perfect method, but if you go through a list of MOPs over the last 30 years, you get a pretty even mix of guards, wings, and bigs. Anthony Davis carried a Kentucky team that had 5 1st round picks to a NC? That’s going to be a tough sell for me.. He led them in scoring one game, was he their best player? Yes but he didn’t carry them to a championship I would say Carmello and he’s a Combo Forward Anthony Davis absolutely led that team. He dominated defensively. People want a secret formula and there isn't one. Wisconsin was a point away from being in the title game. Are you telling me there's some special wall keeping them from making it because their best player was a center?
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Apr 8, 2014 18:57:31 GMT -5
Anthony Davis carried a Kentucky team that had 5 1st round picks to a NC? That’s going to be a tough sell for me.. He led them in scoring one game, was he their best player? Yes but he didn’t carry them to a championship I would say Carmello and he’s a Combo Forward Anthony Davis absolutely led that team. He dominated defensively. People want a secret formula and there isn't one. Wisconsin was a point away from being in the title game. Are you telling me there's some special wall keeping them from making it because their best player was a center? Take Anthony Davis off their team can they win? Terrence Jones Michael Gichrest Doron Lamb Marquis Teague Darius Miller Kyle Wiltjer I say yes without a question. Take Kemba off Uconn, Bazz of Uconn, Melo Of Cuse. They don’t even make the tournament. There’s a difference IMO Lastly who said there's a secret formula, who said your best player had to be a guard, and you seriously don’t think Wisconsin has really good guards??? A balanced team like the Wisconsin, or the Kentucky team above is the best case scenario, agreed. All I’m saying is you can win without a really good big but it’s been a while since I’ve seen a team win without high level guard play. As stated earlier in the thread 11 years in a row a future NBA guard has cut down the nets.
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Post by strummer8526 on Apr 8, 2014 20:07:12 GMT -5
This may be addressed earlier in the thread, but I haven't seen it. Why is Moses considered a "transfer" if he's graduating? Sure, he'll be playing at a different school, but this isn't at all the same as when a kid chooses to move part way through his college career. I just don't like the word "transfer" in this context.
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dreamhoya
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Post by dreamhoya on Apr 10, 2014 22:14:10 GMT -5
Had the same feeling about Benimon as I had about Sims and Bowen and BJ and others their freshman years.... The raw tools were there for Benimon. Not saying he's a world beater but he has a chance to get an NBA look. For Moses, I don't see a major growth. Who is BJ?? I am not familiar with the initials BJ Hayes.
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Talos
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Post by Talos on Apr 11, 2014 15:25:54 GMT -5
If someone had told me only one of Moses and Bowen would return for a fifth year, I would have bet it would have been Moses. While Moses doesn't provide great offense or defense, he at least gives us 5 fouls at a position of need. He would slot in as an emergency backup if Smith/Hopkins are in foul trouble and Hayes doesn't develop. Plus, it appears we aren't bringing in a college ready big in 2014 so we need the bodies at that position.
As for Bowen, I don't see him getting a ton of minutes next year with White/Copeland/Peak as wings and SFs. JTIII's system just doesn't take advantage of Bowen's abilities...he's good in the open floor and running on offense, and pressing on defense. However, his half-court skillset is extremely limited.
On the other hand, maybe JTIII is planning on White and Copeland spending a lot of time at the 4, leaving minutes at the 3 for Bowen. I'd like to give the staff the benefit of the doubt, although roster construction in recent years has been a little strange...
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MCIGuy
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Post by MCIGuy on Apr 11, 2014 15:51:41 GMT -5
If someone had told me only one of Moses and Bowen would return for a fifth year, I would have bet it would have been Moses. While Moses doesn't provide great offense or defense, he at least gives us 5 fouls at a position of need. He would slot in as an emergency backup if Smith/Hopkins are in foul trouble and Hayes doesn't develop. Plus, it appears we aren't bringing in a college ready big in 2014 so we need the bodies at that position. As for Bowen, I don't see him getting a ton of minutes next year with White/Copeland/Peak as wings and SFs. JTIII's system just doesn't take advantage of Bowen's abilities...he's good in the open floor and running on offense, and pressing on defense. However, his half-court skillset is extremely limited. Extremely limited? He got the majority of his points in the half-court so it isn't as if he is useless on that front. He averaged 6 points a game coming off the bench. You want to know how much Nate Lubick averaged this past season? 5.1 points per game. And that is despite playing 155 more minutes this season than Bowen. So if Bowen was extremely limited in the halfcourt what does that make Lubick and why the heck was he starting three seasons for the team? And by the way you actually thought Moses had a greater chance of returning than Bowen? Why? I know you mentioned something about a greater need but I think it was clear to anyone watching that Bowen earned the right to come back more than Moses did.
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GIGAFAN99
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Post by GIGAFAN99 on Apr 11, 2014 16:02:17 GMT -5
If someone had told me only one of Moses and Bowen would return for a fifth year, I would have bet it would have been Moses. While Moses doesn't provide great offense or defense, he at least gives us 5 fouls at a position of need. He would slot in as an emergency backup if Smith/Hopkins are in foul trouble and Hayes doesn't develop. Plus, it appears we aren't bringing in a college ready big in 2014 so we need the bodies at that position. As for Bowen, I don't see him getting a ton of minutes next year with White/Copeland/Peak as wings and SFs. JTIII's system just doesn't take advantage of Bowen's abilities...he's good in the open floor and running on offense, and pressing on defense. However, his half-court skillset is extremely limited. Extremely limited? He got the majority of his points in the half-court so it isn't as if he is useless on that front. He averaged 6 points a game coming off the bench. You want to know how much Nate Lubick averaged this past season? 5.1 points per game. And that is despite playing 155 more minutes this season than Bowen. So if Bowen was extremely limited in the halfcourt what does that make Lubick and why the heck was he starting three seasons for the team? And by the way you actually thought Moses had a greater chance of returning than Bowen? Why? I know you mentioned something about a greater need but I think it was clear to anyone watching that Bowen earned the right to come back more than Moses did. Agreed. The list of things Moses would have to do to become a positive player next year is long and has some pretty big items like "get one offensive move" and "don't foul like the opponent stole your wallet." Aaron can score, rebound, and play defense. He could literally just improve his free throws and be a very solid contributor. Threes and turnovers would just be adding on.
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Talos
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Post by Talos on Apr 11, 2014 16:20:43 GMT -5
If someone had told me only one of Moses and Bowen would return for a fifth year, I would have bet it would have been Moses. While Moses doesn't provide great offense or defense, he at least gives us 5 fouls at a position of need. He would slot in as an emergency backup if Smith/Hopkins are in foul trouble and Hayes doesn't develop. Plus, it appears we aren't bringing in a college ready big in 2014 so we need the bodies at that position. As for Bowen, I don't see him getting a ton of minutes next year with White/Copeland/Peak as wings and SFs. JTIII's system just doesn't take advantage of Bowen's abilities...he's good in the open floor and running on offense, and pressing on defense. However, his half-court skillset is extremely limited. Extremely limited? He got the majority of his points in the half-court so it isn't as if he is useless on that front. He averaged 6 points a game coming off the bench. You want to know how much Nate Lubick averaged this past season? 5.1 points per game. And that is despite playing 155 more minutes this season than Bowen. So if Bowen was extremely limited in the halfcourt what does that make Lubick and why the heck was he starting three seasons for the team? And by the way you actually thought Moses had a greater chance of returning than Bowen? Why? I know you mentioned something about a greater need but I think it was clear to anyone watching that Bowen earned the right to come back more than Moses did. The only reason I thought Moses had a greater chance of returning was simply because of need. We need bodies at the 5 much more than the 3. As for earning the right to come back, I agree that Bowen showed much more than Moses. I think Bowen showed a lot of improvement last year, I liked his activity on the defensive end, and I loved his tip-ins and put backs. I never said he was useless, but in my opinion, his handle and jumper didn't improve enough over the years as we would have liked for a 2/3. Perhaps my use of the word "extremely" to describe his limited skillset was a bit much, but I think most would agree Bowen doesn't have a highly developed offensive game. Not sure if the question about Lubick was serious or rhetorical. We all know Lubick's lack of development was a huge disappointment, and I'd agree that Bowen has a better offensive skillset than Lubick. But who doesn't, and I'm certainly not the person to answer why Lubick kept his starting position... Regardless, I think the biggest problem this past year was we had too many guys with limited offensive skillsets....which is highlighted by the fact we're even having a debate about the offensive skills of Lubick, Bowen, and Ayegba....
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SFHoya99
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Post by SFHoya99 on Apr 11, 2014 16:44:35 GMT -5
Honestly, I'd rather not have Moses' five fouls. If Hopkins and Smith foul out, play Hayes. If Hayes fouls out, play White or Copeland there. If we're 15 fouls down, I'd rather give something else a try.
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Post by johnnysnowplow on Apr 11, 2014 17:32:24 GMT -5
Honestly, I'd rather not have Moses' five fouls. If Hopkins and Smith foul out, play Hayes. If Hayes fouls out, play White or Copeland there. If we're 15 fouls down, I'd rather give something else a try. I agree. This notion that we need Moses if Hayes doesn't develop is ridiculous. IMO, we would need Hayes if Moses doesn't develop. There's absolutely no earthly reason why Moses deserved/would deserve next year to be ahead of Hayes on the depth chart. Moses was just unequivocally awful this year on both ends, there's no way around that. But this discussion is now moot. If we lose all of Smith, Hopkins, and Hayes to DQs, we're probably playing a pretty terrible game all around anyway. Stick PW there and cross your fingers. At least he's guarded high-major big men in HS. Bowen IMO is a welcome addition because, as much as we're all expecting the opposite, what if PW and IC aren't ready to contribute from day 1 for some reason? God forbid, what if one of them gets hurt? I think we're all putting a lot of eggs in the freshman basket (myself included, and probably rightfully so given their hype), but Bowen is a solid insurance plan should some catastrophe strike. If everything works out as hoped, then he provides valuable depth off the bench.
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EtomicB
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Post by EtomicB on Apr 11, 2014 17:33:01 GMT -5
Honestly, I'd rather not have Moses' five fouls. If Hopkins and Smith foul out, play Hayes. If Hayes fouls out, play White or Copeland there. If we're 15 fouls down, I'd rather give something else a try. +100 I'll even go a step further and say I want to see Hopkins as the 3rd option at the 5 spot behind Hayes.. Since it looks like Hayes is gonna stay, he needs to play.. Let Copeland & Hops man the 4..
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dreamhoya
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Post by dreamhoya on Apr 11, 2014 22:36:18 GMT -5
If someone had told me only one of Moses and Bowen would return for a fifth year, I would have bet it would have been Moses. While Moses doesn't provide great offense or defense, he at least gives us 5 fouls at a position of need. He would slot in as an emergency backup if Smith/Hopkins are in foul trouble and Hayes doesn't develop. Plus, it appears we aren't bringing in a college ready big in 2014 so we need the bodies at that position. As for Bowen, I don't see him getting a ton of minutes next year with White/Copeland/Peak as wings and SFs. JTIII's system just doesn't take advantage of Bowen's abilities...he's good in the open floor and running on offense, and pressing on defense. However, his half-court skillset is extremely limited. On the other hand, maybe JTIII is planning on White and Copeland spending a lot of time at the 4, leaving minutes at the 3 for Bowen. I'd like to give the staff the benefit of the doubt, although roster construction in recent years has been a little strange... i wouldn't say "extremely". Bowen really can do what he wants on the court; up to him. whereas some lack the athletic prowess to play in the league, and others lack the mental makeup...i contend that bowen is lacking the confidence...or he's not encouraged to show all he can.
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dreamhoya
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Post by dreamhoya on Apr 11, 2014 22:39:34 GMT -5
Honestly, I'd rather not have Moses' five fouls. If Hopkins and Smith foul out, play Hayes. If Hayes fouls out, play White or Copeland there. If we're 15 fouls down, I'd rather give something else a try. start hayes, bring josh (and if mourning's a center) off the bench.
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This Just In
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Post by This Just In on Apr 12, 2014 9:22:07 GMT -5
If someone had told me only one of Moses and Bowen would return for a fifth year, I would have bet it would have been Moses. While Moses doesn't provide great offense or defense, he at least gives us 5 fouls at a position of need. He would slot in as an emergency backup if Smith/Hopkins are in foul trouble and Hayes doesn't develop. Plus, it appears we aren't bringing in a college ready big in 2014 so we need the bodies at that position. As for Bowen, I don't see him getting a ton of minutes next year with White/Copeland/Peak as wings and SFs. JTIII's system just doesn't take advantage of Bowen's abilities...he's good in the open floor and running on offense, and pressing on defense. However, his half-court skillset is extremely limited. Extremely limited? He got the majority of his points in the half-court so it isn't as if he is useless on that front. He averaged 6 points a game coming off the bench. You want to know how much Nate Lubick averaged this past season? 5.1 points per game. And that is despite playing 155 more minutes this season than Bowen. So if Bowen was extremely limited in the halfcourt what does that make Lubick and why the heck was he starting three seasons for the team? And by the way you actually thought Moses had a greater chance of returning than Bowen? Why? I know you mentioned something about a greater need but I think it was clear to anyone watching that Bowen earned the right to come back more than Moses did. I believe Nate Lubick started 4 seasons in a row...Is this wrong??
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GIGAFAN99
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Post by GIGAFAN99 on Apr 12, 2014 9:28:59 GMT -5
Honestly, I'd rather not have Moses' five fouls. If Hopkins and Smith foul out, play Hayes. If Hayes fouls out, play White or Copeland there. If we're 15 fouls down, I'd rather give something else a try. +100 I'll even go a step further and say I want to see Hopkins as the 3rd option at the 5 spot behind Hayes.. Since it looks like Hayes is gonna stay, he needs to play.. Let Copeland & Hops man the 4.. It's also pretty late in the recruiting year to find a player who gets 5 fouls per the NCAA rulebook. And a tall one with no offensive game, forget it. We might just have to tough it out until a replacement can be found next year.
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Post by HoyasAreHungry on Apr 23, 2014 22:42:45 GMT -5
Moses to Nebraska. Kenya lands his first recruit (again)
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