GIGAFAN99
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Post by GIGAFAN99 on Apr 8, 2014 6:57:08 GMT -5
Note to Hoyas; you've officially had a long drought for nba guards when fans turn the 6'8 swing man who played 3/4 for you into "technically half a guard" so it doesn't look so bad.
That said we need athletic defenders at all spots. Four apparently can win a national title. One can apparently be the difference between 25 and 18 wins. So more of that would be a good idea. For that reason alone, welcome back Aaron!
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Filo
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Post by Filo on Apr 8, 2014 9:08:48 GMT -5
The roll call since Ewing (NBA alumni in bold): 1984-Grady Mateen 1985-Johnathan Edwards 1986- Ben Gillery1987- Dikembe Mutombo, Cedric Izlein (never played) 1988- Alonzo Mourning1990-Pascal Fleury 1992- Othella Harrington, Duane Spencer 1994- Jahidi White1995-Jameel Watkins 1996-Shamel Jones 1997- Ruben Boumtje-Boumtje1999-Wesley Wilson, Lee Scruggs 2004- Roy Hibbert, Cornelio Guibunda 2008- Greg Monroe, Henry Sims2010-Moses Ayegba 2011-Tyler Adams 2012-Bradley Hayes Georgetown's recruiting problems aren't at center, it's at guard. Excepting Chris Wright's 10-day contract, the Hoyas have had just one guard make it in the NBA since the class of 1989. Think about that one. And guard play is what gets you there… Which makes the lack of a supporting cast for Markel and DSR all the more demoralizing. They may not be NBA caliber, but no one can argue that they were a dynamic guard tandem. Right up there with Tillmon/Bryant, AI/Page, Wright/Freeman.
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NCHoya
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Post by NCHoya on Apr 8, 2014 9:50:33 GMT -5
While I can appreciate we have not had an NBA caliber guard on the team in a long time, I still think the Hoyas have had some talent at the position, this past year proved that to be the case and CW/Freeman were terrific.
You need guards, and they are easier to find, but do not think having a kid like Brimah for Uconn did not make a huge difference. Even though they are difficult to find, big men that can either protect the rim or score efficiently are extremely valuable and increase your chances of winning big. If you can find both in one guy you are likely competing for at least a league title. So they are worth the effort, but enough teams have demonstrated the ability to compete at a high level without one, so it can be done.
All that said, I am happy to see Bowen return to the team. I thought he was one of the few players that made a noticeable improvement from last season. He adds athleticism and if he can just get a more consistent 3 point jumper, can really help us out in a big way next season.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Apr 8, 2014 10:13:24 GMT -5
While I can appreciate we have not had an NBA caliber guard on the team in a long time, I still think the Hoyas have had some talent at the position, this past year proved that to be the case and CW/Freeman were terrific. You need guards, and they are easier to find, but do not think having a kid like Brimah for Uconn did not make a huge difference. Even though they are difficult to find, big men that can either protect the rim or score efficiently are extremely valuable and increase your chances of winning big. If you can find both in one guy you are likely competing for at least a league title. So they are worth the effort, but enough teams have demonstrated the ability to compete at a high level without one, so it can be done. All that said, I am happy to see Bowen return to the team. I thought he was one of the few players that made a noticeable improvement from last season. He adds athleticism and if he can just get a more consistent 3 point jumper, can really help us out in a big way next season. I do but Brimah stats from last night.. 0pts 4reb 13min.
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TC
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Post by TC on Apr 8, 2014 10:23:08 GMT -5
Jonathan Wallace is a great counterpoint to all of the handwringing over NBA guards.
Ed Cota made three final fours.
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bmartin
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Post by bmartin on Apr 8, 2014 10:26:20 GMT -5
Note to Hoyas; you've officially had a long drought for nba guards when fans turn the 6'8 swing man who played 3/4 for you into "technically half a guard" so it doesn't look so bad. That said we need athletic defenders at all spots. Four apparently can win a national title. One can apparently be the difference between 25 and 18 wins. So more of that would be a good idea. For that reason alone, welcome back Aaron! Hollis is listed as a SG or as a guard/forward in the NBA. That means he is an NBA guard. He played a lot of 2-guard his junior year once we had Porter and Whittington. Hollis did play some 4 as a soph only because it was the only way he could be on the floor with Wright, Clark, and Freeman. But he was always a 2/3.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Apr 8, 2014 10:32:32 GMT -5
Jonathan Wallace is a great counterpoint to all of the handwringing over NBA guards. Ed Cota made three final fours. Ed Cota was a dam good College player even though he couldn’t shoot a lick.. ACC R.O.Y and second team all conference all of the three years after that. He currently has the third highest assist total in NCAA history.
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bmartin
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Post by bmartin on Apr 8, 2014 10:41:21 GMT -5
We have had some very good college guards who outplayed guards that are in the NBA. The truth is there are a lot more very good 6' to 6'5" basketball players than there are good players 6'8" and taller. For a guard to make it in the NBA he has to be exceptionally quick or be bigger than other guys with comparable skills or be an exceptional jump shooter - something that makes him hard to guard even for great athletes.
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TBird41
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Post by TBird41 on Apr 8, 2014 10:41:58 GMT -5
Jonathan Wallace is a great counterpoint to all of the handwringing over NBA guards. Ed Cota made three final fours. Ed Cota was a dam good College player even though he couldn’t shoot a lick.. ACC R.O.Y and second team all conference all of the three years after that. He currently has the third highest assist total in NCAA history. The last 11 champions (including UConn) have had a future NBA player starting at guard. Also, re: JWall--you can get away with a JWall when you have 3 NBA players at your 3-4-5, and a fourth NBA guy coming off the bench (not to mention the fact that JWall couldn't keep up with Mike Conley and Stephen Curry who were the MVPS of the Hoyas' tournament losses in 2007 and 2008).
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SFHoya99
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Post by SFHoya99 on Apr 8, 2014 11:04:52 GMT -5
yeah, guards were our issue this year.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Apr 8, 2014 11:17:46 GMT -5
Ed Cota was a dam good College player even though he couldn’t shoot a lick.. ACC R.O.Y and second team all conference all of the three years after that. He currently has the third highest assist total in NCAA history. The last 11 champions (including UConn) have had a future NBA player starting at guard. Also, re: JWall--you can get away with a JWall when you have 3 NBA players at your 3-4-5, and a fourth NBA guy coming off the bench (not to mention the fact that JWall couldn't keep up with Mike Conley and Stephen Curry who were the MVPS of the Hoyas' tournament losses in 2007 and 2008). Yeah obviously you have to have other pieces but as far as importance is concerned Guard play has to be number in March. You can also add Armon Bassett and Dj Cooper to that list above, absolutely torched us. Good guard play equals easy baskets, and you can play faster which means more possessions.
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lichoya68
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OK YOUNGINS ARE HERE AND ARE VERY VERY GOOD cant wait GO HOYAS
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Post by lichoya68 on Apr 8, 2014 11:19:33 GMT -5
new year lets move move move and move on go hoyas WE WILL SEE!
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TBird41
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Post by TBird41 on Apr 8, 2014 11:51:05 GMT -5
The last 11 champions (including UConn) have had a future NBA player starting at guard. Also, re: JWall--you can get away with a JWall when you have 3 NBA players at your 3-4-5, and a fourth NBA guy coming off the bench (not to mention the fact that JWall couldn't keep up with Mike Conley and Stephen Curry who were the MVPS of the Hoyas' tournament losses in 2007 and 2008). Yeah obviously you have to have other pieces but as far as importance is concerned Guard play has to be number in March. You can also add Armon Bassett and Dj Cooper to that list above, absolutely torched us. Good guard play equals easy baskets, and you can play faster which means more possessions. The good news, of course, is that between DSR, Jabril, Peak and Tre we have the potential for a ridiculous back court in the next two years
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Post by hoyasaxa2003 on Apr 8, 2014 11:52:37 GMT -5
I realize that good guard play is important, but when your frontcourt is as abysmal as ours was last year, it doesn't matter. The only reason we won any games was Starks and DSR at guard. The thing is, you have a lot of talented guards who cannot make the NBA for whatever reason (many times, size). In contrast, if you are 6'8 and a PF or C and really good, you will probably be on the radar of the NBA.
For that reason, I would argue that having NBA talent at the PF/C positions is more important than guard, because the depth of talent overall for big men is significantly less than for guards. Granted, you ideally want NBA talent at all positions but that will never happen for Georgetown (or most other college teams).
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Apr 8, 2014 12:00:21 GMT -5
I realize that good guard play is important, but when your frontcourt is as abysmal as ours was last year, it doesn't matter. The only reason we won any games was Starks and DSR at guard. The thing is, you have a lot of talented guards who cannot make the NBA for whatever reason (many times, size). In contrast, if you are 6'8 and a PF or C and really good, you will probably be on the radar of the NBA. For that reason, I would argue that having NBA talent at the PF/C positions is more important than guard, because the depth of talent overall for big men is significantly less than for guards. Granted, you ideally want NBA talent at all positions but that will never happen for Georgetown (or most other college teams). The numbers don’t back that up though imo.. You can nuetralize a big guy to a certain extent because he is dependant on others to get him the ball.. We see it all the time. Last dominant big that carried his team to a chip? Agree 100% that you have to have the other pieces but still think Guard or Perimeter play is what gets you over the top
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Apr 8, 2014 12:07:39 GMT -5
Yeah obviously you have to have other pieces but as far as importance is concerned Guard play has to be number in March. You can also add Armon Bassett and Dj Cooper to that list above, absolutely torched us. Good guard play equals easy baskets, and you can play faster which means more possessions. The good news, of course, is that between DSR, Jabril, Peak and Tre we have the potential for a ridiculous back court in the next two years Jabril is a Senior next year but to me he doesn’t fit the mold of the kind of guards I’m speaking of. Tre does in the sense that he is extremely fast, quick and athletic but those are just physical tools and he needs to develop. Imo you need those types of guards that are going to put the defense on their heels and have a lot of wiggle to their game, Brill is more of a straight line driver. Those type of players just make the game easier for others. Imo
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TBird41
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Post by TBird41 on Apr 8, 2014 12:36:14 GMT -5
The good news, of course, is that between DSR, Jabril, Peak and Tre we have the potential for a ridiculous back court in the next two years Jabril is a Senior next year but to me he doesn’t fit the mold of the kind of guards I’m speaking of. Tre does in the sense that he is extremely fast, quick and athletic but those are just physical tools and he needs to develop. Imo you need those types of guards that are going to put the defense on their heels and have a lot of wiggle to their game, Brill is more of a straight line driver. Those type of players just make the game easier for others. Imo That makes sense on Trawick. I included him because he brings a defensive skill that we don't have otherwise and while he's not a Shabazz/Boatright type, he is a Harrison type--under the new rules he can use his strength to get to the basket and draw fouls like the Harrisons did.
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Post by michaelgrahmstylie on Apr 8, 2014 12:45:11 GMT -5
Yeah obviously you have to have other pieces but as far as importance is concerned Guard play has to be number in March. You can also add Armon Bassett and Dj Cooper to that list above, absolutely torched us. Good guard play equals easy baskets, and you can play faster which means more possessions. The good news, of course, is that between DSR, Jabril, Peak and Tre we have the potential for a ridiculous back court in the next two years I agree with you to a point. Those guards from UConn. were fully developed, however. We need to plan better to allow our guards to develop. We are only left to wonder, What if Markel had one more year?
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Buckets
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Post by Buckets on Apr 8, 2014 13:12:25 GMT -5
The numbers don’t back that up though imo.. You can nuetralize a big guy to a certain extent because he is dependant on others to get him the ball.. We see it all the time. Last dominant big that carried his team to a chip? Agree 100% that you have to have the other pieces but still think Guard or Perimeter play is what gets you over the top The answer to your first question is Anthony Davis two years ago. Beyond that, Louisville had Dieng/Harrell/Behanan, Duke had Singler and a very productive month of Zoubek, UNC had Hansbrough, Kansas had Rush/Arthur, and Florida was had Horford/Noah. You can of course name the guards on several of those teams, but really only the two UConn teams have gotten it done without NBA-caliber forwards. Since this thread is in some sense about returning/recruiting guys, my opinion would be that you stockpile bigs. There are tons of 6' dudes who can ball, the number who are 6'9" that can play is a lot smaller. When those big guys prove they can play, they're usually going to leave and get paid. You get a guy like Chris Wright or Markel Starks, they're going to stay around and play four years because like I said, there's a bunch of other 6' guys who can play so no GM's clamoring to throw millions at them. A guy like Otto Porter you basically can get one really good season out of.
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Post by johnnysnowplow on Apr 8, 2014 13:12:32 GMT -5
I realize that good guard play is important, but when your frontcourt is as abysmal as ours was last year, it doesn't matter. The only reason we won any games was Starks and DSR at guard. The thing is, you have a lot of talented guards who cannot make the NBA for whatever reason (many times, size). In contrast, if you are 6'8 and a PF or C and really good, you will probably be on the radar of the NBA. For that reason, I would argue that having NBA talent at the PF/C positions is more important than guard, because the depth of talent overall for big men is significantly less than for guards. Granted, you ideally want NBA talent at all positions but that will never happen for Georgetown (or most other college teams). The numbers don’t back that up though imo.. You can nuetralize a big guy to a certain extent because he is dependant on others to get him the ball.. We see it all the time. Last dominant big that carried his team to a chip? Agree 100% that you have to have the other pieces but still think Guard or Perimeter play is what gets you over the top Though it wasn't one dominant big man (more of a three-headed monster), the 06 and 07 Florida teams won with NBA big men and a less talented, albeit very capable, backcourt. And frankly those teams played a style not that different from our teams back then. I think this argument depends very much on the system you intend to run. At it's core, the Princeton functions best with frontcourt talent. We didn't run the Princeton this year, not even close (and I give JTIII a lot of credit for adapting his style to the players he had this year). It stands to reason that typically we see guard-oriented teams win the championship because, well, there are far more teams that run guard-oriented systems. And as 2003 stated earlier, there are far more 3-4 year, solid college guards around the country than there are equivalent big men. And when you look at the guards that have carried championship teams recently, they tend to be upperclassmen - Kemba, Siva/Smith, Napier/Boatright, Scheyer/Smith, etc. For that reason, I definitely think it's harder to win consistently if you're trying to build around frontcourt talent, because it usually doesn't stay long enough to do that. Every once in a while you catch lightning in a bottle like Florida did (and to a lesser extent like we did in 07) and compile a veteran frontcourt of NBA talent, but it's very hard to do these days. I guess my take is that, even beyond guard-oriented teams winning more often, we saw first-hand this year just how big a difference a talented, veteran backcourt can make. This team really had no business even being on the bubble, but we were one win away from making the tournament, all because of our backcourt. Yes, we clearly need to improve our frontcourt talent (and we have for both 14 and 15, even if not at the 5 spot yet). But we all just saw how guard play can take you places you have no business going. Personally, I don't care if we land the like of Comanche or Rabb or Dickerson. It'd be nice, but we don't need them. With the talent and depth we're going to have at 1-4 in the near future, we would perfectly fine with nothing more than a serviceable big who can defend and rebound, with decent passing skills and an above average IQ. Give me Stainbrook from Xavier all day and twice on Sunday.
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