FLHoya
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Post by FLHoya on Mar 17, 2014 10:00:58 GMT -5
Okay then, if it comes from the committee I'm comfortable conceding everything except the for the love of Craig Esherick part. And I guess grudgingly acknowledge you can have a conversation about how close we were...though I'd still come down on the side of "not very" b/c beating the version of Creighton that play Thursday night would've been a tall task.
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guru
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Post by guru on Mar 17, 2014 10:34:39 GMT -5
tendency to pick up quality OOC wins. Translation: We beat really good teams. aaaaaaand when you do that, you get a high seed. We were not overseeded - we were seeded correctly given our resume. Just because a team gets upset doesn't mean they were overseeded (it could, but it doesn't always). Just as likely - we just flat out choke.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Mar 17, 2014 10:51:29 GMT -5
Yup, as suspected. I posted earlier in the thread -- right after CBS said last four out and posters here starting screaming bs -- that I thought Wellman probably told CBS off-camera who the last four out was. Maybe second to the Masters, the selection show is one of the most tightly run things CBS does. I would have been very surprised if they free-wheeled who the last four were without consulting a source on the committee.
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FLHoya
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Post by FLHoya on Mar 17, 2014 10:53:10 GMT -5
tendency to pick up quality OOC wins. Translation: We beat really good teams. aaaaaaand when you do that, you get a high seed. We were not overseeded - we were seeded correctly given our resume. Just because a team gets upset doesn't mean they were overseeded (it could, but it doesn't always). Just as likely - we just flat out choke. I'm with you on upsets not implying overseeding part--and I was going to write as much in the post but I decided to just go with one sentence. I'll still argue that, for instance, we did well to get a 3 seed in 2012 with a 12-6/5th place BE finish and losing in the BET QFs, or a 6 seed in 2011 with 10-8/8th place lost 4 of last 5 AND in the BET 2nd round. I guess SOS and quality wins are things you earn...I guess it's my recollection/perception esp. in 2011 and 2012 and somewhat 2013 that we were on the better side of how a lot of pundits and Hoya fans guessed we would be seeded. The underlying point though--and I think the NCAA seedings this year bear that out somewhat--schedule and win some good OOC games.
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DanMcQ
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Post by DanMcQ on Mar 17, 2014 11:37:00 GMT -5
Okay then, if it comes from the committee I'm comfortable conceding everything except the for the love of Craig Esherick part. I was skeptical too until I saw him quoted by ESPN.
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njhoya78
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Post by njhoya78 on Mar 17, 2014 11:43:41 GMT -5
I think SMU got hosed... They beat Cincy, UConn, and Louisville..ranked in the top 25 and no bid offered but you let NC State, Tennessee, Nebraska and Iowa in...wow SMU's out-of-conference schedule didn't wow anyone. They played and beat TCU (9-22), Rhode Island (14-18), Texas State (8-23), Arkansas-Pine Bluff (13-17), Sam Houston State (23-10), Texas A&M (17-15), Texas Pan American (9-23), Wyoming (18-14) and Hofstra (10-23). They lost to Arkansas 89-78 (21-11) and Virginia 76-73 (28-6). The Mustangs' record against OOC teams with a better-than-.500 record was only 3-2. That, coupled with the committee's general disdain for the AAC, is why SMU is not in the NCAA. A little bit of a surprise, but not outrageous.
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Post by FrazierFanatic on Mar 17, 2014 11:58:55 GMT -5
Okay then, if it comes from the committee I'm comfortable conceding everything except the for the love of Craig Esherick part. And I guess grudgingly acknowledge you can have a conversation about how close we were...though I'd still come down on the side of "not very" b/c beating the version of Creighton that play Thursday night would've been a tall task. I think the point is that our loss to DePaul was what really killed us - and that we might actually have been in if we beat them and then had a decent showing against Creighton. But of course we will never know and it does not matter now.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Mar 17, 2014 12:21:27 GMT -5
We dug our grave, but that's pretty annoying to hear about Providence. As you guys said, we better keep up our OOC, because basically there were 2 BE teams squarely in the field this year and those were the ones that went a combined 28-6 in the conference. Xavier barely snuck in, and providence had to win the tourney. The BE needs Marquette to come back next year. They had a very good OOC schedule, but they lost almost all those games. Think St Johns should be pretty good next year but Quette might be worse. They lose Gardner Otule and Wilson
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Filo
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Post by Filo on Mar 17, 2014 12:44:13 GMT -5
I was starting to feel pretty good about the BE, esp. with the BET being a pleasant surprise, but the talking heads showed no respect to the conference. Complaints about Nova being a 2 seed, saying that Creighton was over-rated as a 3-seed, etc. In no way would I ever be an aplogist for Nova, but they had 4 losses this year, right? Two to 3-seed Creighton, one at Cuse, and then the upset at the BET. And they were solidly in the top 10 for most of the year. That's a pretty damn good resume, and I am amazed that anyone would argue that they shouldn't be a 2-seed.
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NCHoya
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Post by NCHoya on Mar 17, 2014 12:48:17 GMT -5
10 wins in the league is just not going to cut it anymore. The league is not what it used to be and I think the NCAA committee is right to expect a true tourney team to have more than a 10-8 record in this conference. There will be stacked years where 10-8 can get it done, but in general, it will be about SOS and the Hoyas always help themselves signficantly with a strong OOC schedule. It is now an absolute must going forward for all BE teams. I was disappointed this year in the league because there was more parity than I expected. The bulge in the middle was not good for anyone. No one wants the "haves" and "have nots" of the AAC, but Nova should not have been so dominant and some team or two in the middle needed to step up to 12 wins.
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This Just In
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Post by This Just In on Mar 17, 2014 12:56:50 GMT -5
I think SMU got hosed... They beat Cincy, UConn, and Louisville..ranked in the top 25 and no bid offered but you let NC State, Tennessee, Nebraska and Iowa in...wow SMU's out-of-conference schedule didn't wow anyone. They played and beat TCU (9-22), Rhode Island (14-18), Texas State (8-23), Arkansas-Pine Bluff (13-17), Sam Houston State (23-10), Texas A&M (17-15), Texas Pan American (9-23), Wyoming (18-14) and Hofstra (10-23). They lost to Arkansas 89-78 (21-11) and Virginia 76-73 (28-6). The Mustangs' record against OOC teams with a better-than-.500 record was only 3-2. That, coupled with the committee's general disdain for the AAC, is why SMU is not in the NCAA. A little bit of a surprise, but not outrageous. Let me bounce this off of you. Apparently SMU is recognized as the 69th best team... Providence got in as an 11th seed which means without that BET Win they don't make it and it looks like that is the team that took SMU's bid. My bigger issue is with NC State's bid and a ACC bias. SMU NC State 23-9 21-13 RPI 52 RPI 63 4 Wins over 3 Wins ove NCAA Teams NCAA Teams Which makes seems that NC State had to beat a struggling Syracuse team to make it in...despite having a lesser resume than SMU. Also check NC State's OOC Schedule and let me know what you think.
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GUJook97
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Post by GUJook97 on Mar 17, 2014 13:10:41 GMT -5
10 wins in the league is just not going to cut it anymore. The league is not what it used to be and I think the NCAA committee is right to expect a true tourney team to have more than a 10-8 record in this conference. There will be stacked years where 10-8 can get it done, but in general, it will be about SOS and the Hoyas always help themselves signficantly with a strong OOC schedule. It is now an absolute must going forward for all BE teams. I was disappointed this year in the league because there was more parity than I expected. The bulge in the middle was not good for anyone. No one wants the "haves" and "have nots" of the AAC, but Nova should not have been so dominant and some team or two in the middle needed to step up to 12 wins. Yeah, in thinking about it more, it's not like someone with a 12-6 record got hosed. There wasn't even a 3rd 11 win team. We are just going to have to win more BE games. Even in our down year, 11 wins should have been doable.
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This Just In
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Post by This Just In on Mar 17, 2014 13:16:30 GMT -5
Taking a look at the seeding and match ups and it will be hard for a BE Team to make a Sweet 16
#3 Seed Creighton Has to go thru either Baylor or Nebraska
#2 Seed Villanova Has to go thru Connecticut
#11 Seed Providence BET Champs (BET has been to every final four since 2010)
Has to go thru North Carolina and Iowa State "Good Luck with that"
#12 Seed Xavier Has to go thru NC State, Saint Louis, and Louisville "They have no chance of making the Sweet 16"
The Big East teams appeared to have figured out Creighton coming down the stretch of the season and all 4 teams have front court issues.
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SFHoya99
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Post by SFHoya99 on Mar 17, 2014 13:23:43 GMT -5
10 wins in the league is just not going to cut it anymore. The league is not what it used to be and I think the NCAA committee is right to expect a true tourney team to have more than a 10-8 record in this conference. There will be stacked years where 10-8 can get it done, but in general, it will be about SOS and the Hoyas always help themselves signficantly with a strong OOC schedule. It is now an absolute must going forward for all BE teams. I was disappointed this year in the league because there was more parity than I expected. The bulge in the middle was not good for anyone. No one wants the "haves" and "have nots" of the AAC, but Nova should not have been so dominant and some team or two in the middle needed to step up to 12 wins. With our non-conference, 10 wins would have easily gotten it done.
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GUJook97
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Post by GUJook97 on Mar 17, 2014 13:33:43 GMT -5
True, but that means we have to beat 3 top 50 teams in the OOC. Not likely to happen very often.
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njhoya78
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Post by njhoya78 on Mar 17, 2014 13:41:13 GMT -5
SMU's out-of-conference schedule didn't wow anyone. They played and beat TCU (9-22), Rhode Island (14-18), Texas State (8-23), Arkansas-Pine Bluff (13-17), Sam Houston State (23-10), Texas A&M (17-15), Texas Pan American (9-23), Wyoming (18-14) and Hofstra (10-23). They lost to Arkansas 89-78 (21-11) and Virginia 76-73 (28-6). The Mustangs' record against OOC teams with a better-than-.500 record was only 3-2. That, coupled with the committee's general disdain for the AAC, is why SMU is not in the NCAA. A little bit of a surprise, but not outrageous. Let me bounce this off of you. Apparently SMU is recognized as the 69th best team... Providence got in as an 11th seed which means without that BET Win they don't make it and it looks like that is the team that took SMU's bid. My bigger issue is with NC State's bid and a ACC bias. SMU NC State 23-9 21-13 RPI 52 RPI 63 4 Wins over 3 Wins ove NCAA Teams NCAA Teams Which makes seems that NC State had to beat a struggling Syracuse team to make it in...despite having a lesser resume than SMU. Also check NC State's OOC Schedule and let me know what you think. While I am not convinced that North Carolina State is legitimately in the NCAA tournament, their resume dwarfs that of SMU. NC State played fourteen out-of-conference games, and went 13-1. That includes wins over UNC Pembroke (14-15), Morehouse (7-20), Appalachian State (9-21), Campbell (12-20), North Carolina Central (28-5, by a score of 82-72 in overtime against an NCAA tournament team), Florida Gulf Coat (22-12, by a score of 82-62), Eastern Kentucky (24-9, by a score of 75-57 against an NCAA tournament team), Northwestern (14-19), Long Beach State (15-17), Detroit (13-19), Tennessee (21-12, by a score of 65-58 against an NCAA tournament team), East Carolina (17-16, by a score of 90-79), and UNC Greensboro (14-18). The one out-of-conference loss was against Missouri (22-11, by a score of 68-64). In sum, a record of 5-1 against teams with records better than .500, and a record of 3-0 against NCAA tournament-bound teams. That resume is far better than that of SMU. Did the "panache" of the ACC (and some alleged lobbying by Coach K) factor into North Carolina State's selection? Could well be. If it came down to them vs. SMU, though, I would have made the same call. Did Providence slot in ahead of SMU? Could well be. PC won their last three games, in the BET; SMU finished on a three-game losing streak. That had to have factored into the committee's decision.
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Post by dungeon ball on Mar 17, 2014 13:58:38 GMT -5
I'm hoping for a Final Four of Michigan St., VCU, Kansas St., Creighton to make all our heads explode.
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bmartin
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Post by bmartin on Mar 17, 2014 13:58:47 GMT -5
NC State lost to North Carolina Central at home and lost at Cincinnati, so three OOC losses. Eastern Kentucky is in the NCAA tournament, but they are not a top 100 team. The only quality OOC win was Tennessee.
Then NC State went 9-9 in the ACC, tied with Florida State (NIT) and Maryland (No T), and behind Clemson (NIT). They lost to Wake Forest! Then they did beat Syracuse in the ACC tournament, which is something, but really should have been too little, too late.
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Filo
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Post by Filo on Mar 17, 2014 14:06:47 GMT -5
Let me bounce this off of you. Apparently SMU is recognized as the 69th best team... Providence got in as an 11th seed which means without that BET Win they don't make it and it looks like that is the team that took SMU's bid. My bigger issue is with NC State's bid and a ACC bias. SMU NC State 23-9 21-13 RPI 52 RPI 63 4 Wins over 3 Wins ove NCAA Teams NCAA Teams Which makes seems that NC State had to beat a struggling Syracuse team to make it in...despite having a lesser resume than SMU. Also check NC State's OOC Schedule and let me know what you think. While I am not convinced that North Carolina State is legitimately in the NCAA tournament, their resume dwarfs that of SMU. NC State played fourteen out-of-conference games, and went 13-1. That includes wins over UNC Pembroke (14-15), Morehouse (7-20), Appalachian State (9-21), Campbell (12-20), North Carolina Central (28-5, by a score of 82-72 in overtime against an NCAA tournament team), Florida Gulf Coat (22-12, by a score of 82-62), Eastern Kentucky (24-9, by a score of 75-57 against an NCAA tournament team), Northwestern (14-19), Long Beach State (15-17), Detroit (13-19), Tennessee (21-12, by a score of 65-58 against an NCAA tournament team), East Carolina (17-16, by a score of 90-79), and UNC Greensboro (14-18). The one out-of-conference loss was against Missouri (22-11, by a score of 68-64). In sum, a record of 5-1 against teams with records better than .500, and a record of 3-0 against NCAA tournament-bound teams. That resume is far better than that of SMU. Did the "panache" of the ACC (and some alleged lobbying by Coach K) factor into North Carolina State's selection? Could well be. If it came down to them vs. SMU, though, I would have made the same call. Did Providence slot in ahead of SMU? Could well be. PC won their last three games, in the BET; SMU finished on a three-game losing streak. That had to have factored into the committee's decision. The use of "dwarfs" and "far better" is somewhat comical. Decent arguments on either side, but far from clear. Not sure what you mean with the PC reference -- they got an auto bid for winning the BET. Also, what exactly is "alleged" about Coach K's lobbying? It was crystl clear and out there for all the world to see...
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njhoya78
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Post by njhoya78 on Mar 17, 2014 14:21:43 GMT -5
My mistake on the NC State/NC Central result; Central did win in overtime. Mea culpa. "That's the first mistake I've ever made."
My PC reference was due to the fact that, absent a PC BET win, they are probably not in the NCAA tournament, and an additional at-large berth might have been available for, oh, SMU as an example.
As for Coach K. . .I was trying to be kind to an elder. The pro-ACC bias has been around for years.
Out-of-conference results are really the only way you can judge two schools in different conferences. Is the bottom of the AAC as putrid as the bottom of the ACC? Certainly. I believe that SMU will upgrade its out-of-conference schedule next season. . .just like GU did after JT3 took the reins. Another season like this from SMU, and they'll be in the NCAA tournament.
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