Big East Split?

[WilsonBlvdHoya]

CambridgeHoya said:

I'm not denying that the quantum leap occured or what caused it...however, I'm questioning for arguments sake, that we require the same driving force to continue the growth. Sometimes the motivations that spark a transformation aren't necessarily the same that drive a transformation to it's conclussion. There is no doubt that bball brought gtown into the limelight, but I would posit that it was a confluence of factors that came together at an opportune moment. While bball was perhaps the catalyst, there were many other important factors that were equally influential. The fact alone that WASPS would consider attending a Catholic institution speaks volumes about the transformation American society alone has made in the timespan we are discussing.

Cambridge, I don't have time to go in-depth either right now but I think we're in violent agreement (although I might argue that an analogous transformation is needed on the financial side!). Clearly, it wasn't just BB alone that drove GU to the top but it was certainly contributory. So when younger posters write that hoops has nothing to do with GU's admissions competitiveness, I have to take umbrage at the lack of historical perspective. That's all for now.....

[YB]

OK, Cambridge, I don't necessarily agree with your assumptions here but I'll accept them as true for now. Let's say our needs now have extended more to fundraising, endowment development and debt retirement.

What's the best way to do this? Well, I think it's STILL marketing nationally. Our alums need to be reminded constantly that they are Georgetown too.

How would I say is the best way to do this? Keep big-time athletics at GU. Look at what it does for virtually every other school that has it. For those like the Ivies, I'd remind you they have been passing the plate around since the 1700s and are way beyond us in fundraising, since we just starting our endowment in 1980.

How to keep big-time athletics at GU? Invest in it and ensure its survival. Bring our teams home.

Build the MSF and CC.

[Cambridge]

WilsonBlvdHoya said:

Cambridge, I don't have time to go in-depth either right now but I think we're in violent agreement (although I might argue that an analogous transformation is needed on the financial side!). Clearly, it wasn't just BB alone that drove GU to the top but it was certainly contributory. So when younger posters write that hoops has nothing to do with GU's admissions competitiveness, I have to take umbrage at the lack of historical perspective. That's all for now.....

I see your point and I don't think anyone is questioning what bball did for Georgetown.

I'm merely wondering if it is in Georgetown's best interest to use the same formula we used to reach the national spotligh to solidify our position in the elite tier of schools.

Now, I honestly hope that it is, as I wouldn't be on this board if I wasn't a die hard fan of the bball program, I just want to flesh out the argument and see it in it's entirety.

Too often, I feel like there is dogmatic rhetoric and I want to hear the full argument and specifics. I think that there are leaps of logic in some of the arguments made on the board. That's not to say that I feel there are gaping holes in the reasoning, but all too often the argument is made in shorthand and the details and specifics are lost in the same, tired back and forth.

Like others have attempted to model, I want to know the specifics about the various problems/proposals/scenarios facing Gtown and their impact on the school and bball program:

1) MCI center costs
2) the possible split of the Big East
3) the priorities of the Uni re: SW Quad, Fine Arts Center, multisport complex, oncampus arena, etc
4) recent slide in the rankings
5) ongoing financial crisis at GU
6) increasing applications/competitiveness in admissions
7) retention of top flight faculty despite lack of resources

[SFHoya99]

From an academic prespective, honestly, basketball is probably not the "answer." It will help to have a great sports program, no question.

But the new business school, new science building, etc., will help more. No question.

That's all fine and good if you view fundraising as a zero sum game.

Which it isn't. An athletics program grows the pie, and arguably grows it faster than academics. Furthermore, anytime you neglect a portion of your school, you neglect a fundraising base. There are people interested in athletics, and people interested in the arts. They are not always the same people. And they aren't always alumni.

Would McDonough have given $30M to build a convocation center? Maybe, but he made his mark in business even though he was not a B school grad and that's where his money went. Would the donors for the boathouse given to something else? Probably not.

Strengthening our sports programs will help the school in the long run.

[Cambridge]

SFHoya99 said:

From an academic prespective, honestly, basketball is probably not the "answer." It will help to have a great sports program, no question.

But the new business school, new science building, etc., will help more. No question.

That's all fine and good if you view fundraising as a zero sum game.

Which it isn't. An athletics program grows the pie, and arguably grows it faster than academics. Furthermore, anytime you neglect a portion of your school, you neglect a fundraising base. There are people interested in athletics, and people interested in the arts. They are not always the same people. And they aren't always alumni.

Would McDonough have given $30M to build a convocation center? Maybe, but he made his mark in business even were he not a B school grad and that's where his money went. Would the donors for the boathouse given to something else? Probably not.

Strengthening our sports programs will help the school in the long run.

McDonough was an SFS grad. At the time there was no business school. He has since said that had there been a business school at the time, he would have attended, but he was definitely SFS.

[SFHoya99]

CambridgeHoya said:

McDonough was an SFS grad. At the time there was no business school. He has since said that had there been a business school at the time, he would have attended, but he was definitely SFS.

Arrrgh. I knew that. I can't type.

[Cambridge]

SFHoya99 said:

From an academic prespective, honestly, basketball is probably not the "answer." It will help to have a great sports program, no question.

But the new business school, new science building, etc., will help more. No question.

That's all fine and good if you view fundraising as a zero sum game.

Which it isn't. An athletics program grows the pie, and arguably grows it faster than academics. Furthermore, anytime you neglect a portion of your school, you neglect a fundraising base. There are people interested in athletics, and people interested in the arts. They are not always the same people. And they aren't always alumni.

Would McDonough have given $30M to build a convocation center? Maybe, but he made his mark in business even were he not a B school grad and that's where his money went. Would the donors for the boathouse given to something else? Probably not.

Strengthening our sports programs will help the school in the long run.

I don't think fundraising is a zero sum game per se, in that I agree with your statement that there are donors that give to specific things and not to others; however, I think that it is a zero sum game when it comes to human resources. The university, in order to handle the fundraising would have to shift staff away from other areas to the arena.

Also, having worked for Gtown development all throughout my undergrad years as a grant writer, I can tell you that like many development staffs -- ours is rife with turnover and a fair amount of infighting amongst schools. This does not help with capital campaigns one bit, as directors and associate/assitant directors are constantly turning over or engaged in a real zero sum game fighting over the same big fish/fat cats.

For example in my four years in the development office for one of the schools there were no less than 7 different associate and assistant directors of development who filled the three positions. That is serious turnover in a business predicated on relationships and trust.

My point is that the school is already behind in the capital business and its staff is underfunded, prone to turnover and stretched very thin. To say that the univesity can just go after a new campaign is fairly ludicrus.

[DFW HOYA]

CambridgeHoya said:

Like others have attempted to model, I want to know the specifics about the various problems/proposals/scenarios facing Gtown and their impact on the school and bball program:
1) MCI center costs
2) the possible split of the Big East
3) the priorities of the Uni re: SW Quad, Fine Arts Center, multisport complex, oncampus arena, etc
4) recent slide in the rankings
5) ongoing financial crisis at GU
6) increasing applications/competitiveness in admissions
7) retention of top flight faculty despite lack of resources

Quick thoughts on each:

1. MCI: Don't know for sure about MCI costs, but I have to think it's more than just some friendly agreement whereby MCI picks up the first $70-80K of the check. MCI would never make back its money.

2. Big East Split: This was very close in 2003; in fact, there were some documents floating on the Net how the football schools had actually voted to walk. I-A football drives that train and if there are still eight I-A schools in the league by 2010 it will be an issue again. The best things the I-AA and non-football schools can do is ramp up quickly and do their best so there is an opportunity cost to the I-A schools by walking away. If all the non-IA schools are floundering, it's an easier call.

3. Unviersity priorities: Other than finishing the Davis Arts Center and getting the Business building built, priority #1 seems to be the science building. GU could spend $80 million on a building tomorrow but it still won't have the scientific resources necessary to distinguish itself--much more money will be needed. For all that money, why not take over a building or two in the Medical School and make that the science complex instead.

However, it is clear that McDonough Gym is not a priority at this point.

4. Sliding Rankings: Georgetown is down to #25 in the US News rankings and continues to drop in areas (finances, full time faculty, libraries) where the rankings could tip the scales to a UCLA or a Tufts close by. Drop a few more places and Georgetown's peers in the rankings are more likely to be William & Mary than Virginia and Southern Cal rather than Stanford. Does that make a difference? I don't want to find out the hard way.

5. Ongoing financial crisis: In a word, ongoing. More layoffs expected, as reported from today's HOYA. In the last decade, Georgetown has lost over $300 million. $300 million. Think about that number and what it could have brought this school. Georgetown divested the hospital in 2001 but continues to lose money (albeit less, but still in the millions annually) because of declining research dollars.

The endowment remains much, much lower than its peers. Georgetown is 25th in the rankings but 77th in endowment, well behind the Ivies, behind BC, Notre Dame, and George Washington, and even behind schools like Cincinnati and Syracuse. See www.nacubo.org/documents/research/FY04NESInstitutionsbyTotalAssetsforPress.pdf

Put another way, for every dollar of endowment Geogetown gets to spend, Notre Dame gets $4.55, Duke gets $4.87, Penn gets $5.91, and Harvard gets $32.50.

6. Competitiveness in admissions. Still competitive. It's one of the great assets to the institution.

7. Retention of top flight faculty. A challenge anywhere, esp. in tight budgetary times. I wonder how much an intangible this is; that is, whether students really come to GU for the faculty or just for "Georgetown".

Where does basketball fit in? It's one of the most visible assets the school has but like another important asset (the Church), there are some patricians who will tell you Georgetown really doesn't need it anymore to be successful.

Without an institutional commitment to basketball, the revenue structure for other Georgetown sports (esp. scholarship programs) falters, the visibility for the school suffers, and the financial wherewithall to distinguish the University at the highest levels athletically will no longer be there. I do not want to see a point of no return.

Support for basketball is not a zero-sum support with other priorities. We can be "for" basketball and "for" financial aid. The key is to get McD a seat at the table and rise or fall based on the support of its constituents.

[CTHoya08]

DFW said:

I wonder how much an intangible this is; that is, whether students really come to GU for the faculty or just for "Georgetown".

If we continue to drop in the rankings "Georgetown" as a reason to attend will disappear also.

[SFHoya99]

At some point, we are no longer responsible for the Hospital, right? When is that?

[CTHoya08]

DFW said:

I wonder how much an intangible this is; that is, whether students really come to GU for the faculty or just for "Georgetown".

If we continue to drop in the rankings "Georgetown" as a reason to attend will disappear also.

Also, with regard to the idea discussed above of a "Catholic" conference-I think such a conference would be plausible, if the Catholic schools in question included not only Georgetown, but also Notre Dame and Boston College. The more likely composition of such a conference would not be able to exist as a powerful league. Sadly, 1-A football drives all of these things, with basketball only playing second fiddle. The other profitable sport (although it doesn't influence conferences) is hockey, which we don't even have. It's too bad there's not much influence from lacrosse, or even track, sports in which we are national powers,

[RBHoya]

SFHoya99 said:

At some point, we are no longer responsible for the Hospital, right? When is that?

How in the hell can we lose 300 million in a decade? I've heard that "the hospital" eats up an inordinate amount of money, which causes a great deal of financial hardship for the University. Why? How? And whats the deal with that SF said and us no longer being responsible for the hospital?

And why is the endowment so poor compared to others?

I just dont get it I love Georgetown and want to see the University succeed. How is it that we're in such bad shape? We're well-respected in general, but I know that a lot of people DO put a lot of stock in the US News rankings. I HATE that we're falling. I dont know a lot about the differences, but I know that in high school I definitly wanted to go to Georgetown rather than Northwestern, Washington University in St. Louis, Notre Dame, Vandy, Carnegie Melon, Michigan, etc, even turning down some of those schools.... I just HATE the notion that we're viewed as inferior, and now more associated with W&M, Wake, UNC, etc. I don't know how that happens, but I'm guessing a lot of it has to do with GU being "in the red".... So how exactly is that happening?

Hope this isn't getting too off of the Conference split topic... feels more like a 37th and O topic now... but in a sense its all tied together.

[CTHoya08]

There's been a lot of stuff in the Hoya about these problems this year, apparently debt factors heavily into the rankings, as well as having lots of part time professors. The school has recently announced plans for a big fundraising project for the next 25 years, let's hope we keep our rightful place at the top of the rankings in the meantime.

[DFW HOYA]

Her's an article from earlier this year in The HOYA which is a good starting point for the deficit (and debt) discussion:

www.thehoya.com/news/082704/news5.cfm