eb59
Century (over 100 posts)
Posts: 152
|
Post by eb59 on Nov 25, 2013 20:44:12 GMT -5
So, it has been said that Gtown was the CRITICAL lynch-pin in the creation / existence of the New Big East..... As such, I would argue that Gtown should have some ability to shape the footprint of the sports or league beyond Basketball. Looking at the current Big East Conference schools & football, to me it does not seem unrealistic to create a Big East FB league bound by mutually agreed upon standards (No-AI, Limited Scholarships(max 45 over a graduated timeline), Etc, Etc...). BTW - I think some form & number of Scholarship is REQUIRED in these days in FB....the Ivey’s give them regardless of name! Existing FCS Teams: Villanova - CAA, Full Scholarship FC Program, recent National Championship...but no one seems to care or like the costs associated with playing at that level. Their Alumni may never allow them to play in the Patriot League as it would be viewed as a gross downgrade, but perhaps playing in the New Big East might be somehow more palatable?  ? I expect it would be to the Board and Leaders looking at schools like JMU spending $62m on stadium alone! Gtown - Not sure I need to comment here other than, We Will NEVER Improve w/out a Stadium deserving of College Athletes. Butler - See Butler thread on making the playoffs, Gtown has never made the playoffs but I bet the New Big East would be able to secure an Auto-Bid without a whole lot of work if the league actually existed! Existing Club Teams: DePaul, Xavier - These are two teams that seem to be really excited to play in the New Big East, nudging them to compete in a New Big East FB Conf. does not seem to be too much of a stretch, if anything it would be an exciting expansion for their schools enabled by the New Big East. Low Hanging Fruit: Creighton - School has an athletics mentality in a FB poor town of Omaha / FB rich state of NB, Beautiful professional level small soccer stadium, to me they could be a big player in the New Big East in no time! St Johns - Really nice existing stadium, looking for any lever to make the New Big East stronger so they don't get completely left in the encyclopedia as a once relevant school (if the new Big East collapses)....Most importantly HUGE & ALMOST IMMEDIATE RIVAL in BB, FB, LAX and likely every other sport. Others: Marquette, Providence & Seton Hall - I don't know much about these guys, but I bet with a little leverage from Gtown and Nova, with Butler and Xavier making a move it would not take much for them to find some FB $$$ that never existed in the past. 6 or 7 league “Big East FB Conference” – This could be a league that competes with the Ivey’s and or close to the NEW Patriot and maybe plays up occasionally to CAA! Comments / Thoughts? |
|
|
|
Post by Problem of Dog on Nov 25, 2013 20:53:04 GMT -5
:facepalm:
There's so much wrong with this thread it's not even worth getting into.
|
|
eb59
Century (over 100 posts)
Posts: 152
|
Post by eb59 on Nov 25, 2013 21:08:20 GMT -5
Please get into POD - with your wealth of complaining and useless, non-productive, whiney comments....man you such an deleted, I wish you would step out from your on-line facade and let me come talk to you in person about Gtown FB someday! My guess is that you are just some super deleted that never stepped on a field at the HS or Pop Warner level - right?
|
|
|
|
Post by puppydog100 on Nov 26, 2013 7:22:04 GMT -5
Thanks eb59, it's about time someone called out POD.
I have no patience with people who are contrarians. Not all ideas are good ideas, but not having any ideas, and only being critical, is a waste of time.
|
|
RusskyHoya
Diamond Hoya (over 2500 posts)
In Soviet Russia, Hoya Blue Bleeds You!
Posts: 4,596
|
Post by RusskyHoya on Nov 26, 2013 11:12:42 GMT -5
*sigh* Ok, I'll bite. So, it has been said that Gtown was the CRITICAL lynch-pin in the creation / existence of the New Big East..... As such, I would argue that Gtown should have some ability to shape the footprint of the sports or league beyond Basketball. Looking at the current Big East Conference schools & football, to me it does not seem unrealistic to create a Big East FB league bound by mutually agreed upon standards (No-AI, Limited Scholarships(max 45 over a graduated timeline), Etc, Etc...). Why would Georgetown agree to a No-AI league, when the University would have to impose something rather similar to the existing AI on the program anyway, lest each recruiting class start materially degrading the academic profile of accepted/matriculated freshman classes as a whole? And then have to play in the same conference as schools that don't have such self-imposed restrictions (or do, but less restrictive). Georgetown wants its football program within an Ivy-like footprint and context, and since the Ancient Eight aren't accepting any new members, the Patriot League is the next best thing - not in spite of the AI, but because of it. You may not agree, but that's how the thinking goes, and I don't see it changing. There's also the small matter of where the money to fund 45 scholarships (and an equal matching expenditure for women's sports to satisfy Title IX) is supposed to come from... BTW - I think some form & number of Scholarship is REQUIRED in these days in FB....the Ivey’s give them regardless of name! Eh... not really. The Ivy schools have so much financial aid money to spread around that most of their recruited athletes are paying little to no tuition. But the same applies to their student bodies as a whole. It's not a 'scholarship' if you don't have to do anything to earn it, beyond getting admitted. Believe it or not, the Ivies do end up losing some recruits each year who come from upper/upper middle class and would rather get a full ride somewhere like Richmond or W&M than shell out $10k/$20k/$30k per year for the privilege of playing football in the Ivy League. Similarly, the military academies have been welcomed as non-football members of the Patriot League despite the fact that all of their athletes attend school for free (and, indeed, have a salary deposited into a locked bank account for them). This doesn't run afoul of Patriot League scholarship rules because it applies to every student at the academies. So it's certainly true that some form and number of $$$ off of sticker price is required to be remotely competitive. But we already have that, both with general financial aid (like the Ivies, just at a significantly lower level) and our limited number of scholarship equivalencies (which the Ivies don't have and don't need). Just nowhere near enough of it. Existing FCS Teams: Villanova - CAA, Full Scholarship FC Program, recent National Championship...but no one seems to care or like the costs associated with playing at that level. Their Alumni may never allow them to play in the Patriot League as it would be viewed as a gross downgrade, but perhaps playing in the New Big East might be somehow more palatable? ? I expect it would be to the Board and Leaders looking at schools like JMU spending $62m on stadium alone! If no one seems to care or like the costs associated with playing at the CAA level, then why would dropping down to PL be out of the question? Clearly, someone must care, if that's the case. Regardless, a move from the CAA to this 'New Big East' would be a gross downgrade. Gtown - Not sure I need to comment here other than, We Will NEVER Improve w/out a Stadium deserving of College Athletes. There's a lot more to it than just the stadium issue. The MSF will happen...eventually. It will be small, but attractive enough. It will help, but not as much as scholarship/financial aid $$$ would. Butler - See Butler thread on making the playoffs, Gtown has never made the playoffs but I bet the New Big East would be able to secure an Auto-Bid without a whole lot of work if the league actually existed! Maybe. The MAAC never gone one, I don't think. Existing Club Teams: DePaul, Xavier - These are two teams that seem to be really excited to play in the New Big East, nudging them to compete in a New Big East FB Conf. does not seem to be too much of a stretch, if anything it would be an exciting expansion for their schools enabled by the New Big East. Excitement doesn't cover the enormous startup costs of fielding a FCS football team. I'm not as familiar with Xavier's context, but DePaul is more likely to win the Big East in basketball than they are to start a scholarship football program. Low Hanging Fruit: Creighton - School has an athletics mentality in a FB poor town of Omaha / FB rich state of NB, Beautiful professional level small soccer stadium, to me they could be a big player in the New Big East in no time! It can actually be harder to start up a program in an area that's already college football crazy, because everyone already has a team. Who's going to go to a Creighton game when Nebraska is playing? Or even on the same day Nebraska is playing, when you need to drive the hour to Lincoln and then tailgate for 5 hours. St Johns - Really nice existing stadium, looking for any lever to make the New Big East stronger so they don't get completely left in the encyclopedia as a once relevant school (if the new Big East collapses)....Most importantly HUGE & ALMOST IMMEDIATE RIVAL in BB, FB, LAX and likely every other sport. They canceled their program for a reason. That reasoning has not changed all that much since 2002. Others: Marquette, Providence & Seton Hall - I don't know much about these guys, but I bet with a little leverage from Gtown and Nova, with Butler and Xavier making a move it would not take much for them to find some FB $$$ that never existed in the past. I think you're significantly underestimating the size of the "FB $$$" involved, as well as the difficulty of justifying such an expenditure internally, given the countless competing, zero-sum demands for university discretionary funds. 6 or 7 league “Big East FB Conference” – This could be a league that competes with the Ivey’s and or close to the NEW Patriot and maybe plays up occasionally to CAA! Comments / Thoughts? If wishes were horses, beggars would ride |
|
|
|
Post by hounddog on Nov 26, 2013 11:16:12 GMT -5
From a Butler perspective:
(1). Would love to see this happen.
(2). I don't ever see Butler going back to scholarship football.
(3). Butler's baby is their BBall program. With a limited endowment to draw from BBall gets all the athletic resources.
(4). Football in its present form (a) makes the University money and (b) draws male students which are two of the goals of the program.
(5). Instituting scholarships......say 45 as suggested @ 48k per would cost the University approx 2.2 million. Wiping out any "profit" in terms of net tuition dollars they receive now.
(6). The could call it the "Big East" yet still try and get schools like Dayton or Drake to join. Xavier and Creighton starting football programs would create natural rivalries with those schools. Xavier has been rumored in last several years to be evaluating bring their football program back.....at a non-scholarship level.
Only way I see this happening is under a non-scholarship model but would love to see this get some legs. But I doubt it.
|
|
DFW HOYA
Platinum Hoya (over 5000 posts)
Posts: 5,728
|
Post by DFW HOYA on Nov 26, 2013 11:44:37 GMT -5
I think I'll need some time to comment on all the issues above. Two come immediately to mind:
1. "Why would Georgetown agree to a No-AI league?" Why wouldn't it?
2. "Why did St. John's drop football?" It was one of six men's sports (both scholarship and non-scholarship) which Rev. Harrington dropped to prop up basketball in the early 2000's, and failed to keep the school from dropping off the map. Since 2003, St. John's has just one NCAA bid (a first round loss) and one NIT bid (a first round loss). Even DePaul has more post-season appearances over this same timeframe (1 NCAA, 2 NIT).
|
|
RusskyHoya
Diamond Hoya (over 2500 posts)
In Soviet Russia, Hoya Blue Bleeds You!
Posts: 4,596
|
Post by RusskyHoya on Nov 26, 2013 12:30:15 GMT -5
I think I'll need some time to comment on all the issues above. Two come immediately to mind: 1. "Why would Georgetown agree to a No-AI league?" Why wouldn't it? Because the raison d'etre of the football program can be summed up as "to keep up appearances." Those appearances include keeping football within a constrained, Ivy-like footprint. If we're going to be straight-jacketed by academic constraints on recruiting anyway, it's much better to have our opponents be operating under similar constraints. And even better if we can publicly point to said constraints as proof of our respectability and propriety - again, for appearances' sake. |
|
DFW HOYA
Platinum Hoya (over 5000 posts)
Posts: 5,728
|
Post by DFW HOYA on Nov 26, 2013 13:14:07 GMT -5
I think I'll need some time to comment on all the issues above. Two come immediately to mind: 1. "Why would Georgetown agree to a No-AI league?" Why wouldn't it? Because the raison d'etre of the football program can be summed up as "to keep up appearances." Those appearances include keeping football within a constrained, Ivy-like footprint. If we're going to be straight-jacketed by academic constraints on recruiting anyway, it's much better to have our opponents be operating under similar constraints. And even better if we can publicly point to said constraints as proof of our respectability and propriety - again, for appearances' sake. But it's not about appearance's sake. Is baseball "within a constrained, Ivy-like footprint"? How about swimming? Field Hockey? Every other sport at Greorgetown trusts that whatever number Admissions gives them, they can compete--in the end, Georgetown has the final say whether coaches admit the next Andrew Campbell or the next Octavius Spann. But not football, where the Patriot League has the final say that Georgetown can recruit three kids with between a 3.6-3.7 GPA and a 1330-1365 SAT, but just not four. It's arbitrary to a fault, and if there's a Stanford or Duke-caliber recruit that can come to Georgetown and graduate, turning him away simply because it doesn't fit the league's SAT narrow range for Georgetown (whose average SAT's are 200+ points higher than what Fordham has) is a huge disadvantage. Remember, football didn't get near a single Ivy opponent in our lifetimes before 2003. It wasn't about "appearances", but somehow good kids were admitted and graduated and not everyone was on an administrative bell curve. The irony is that for a school which was once the visible leader opposing Prop 42 in basketball, the idea of legislated SAT ranges for admission is now deemed acceptable. |
|
RusskyHoya
Diamond Hoya (over 2500 posts)
In Soviet Russia, Hoya Blue Bleeds You!
Posts: 4,596
|
Post by RusskyHoya on Nov 26, 2013 16:44:20 GMT -5
But it's not about appearance's sake. Is baseball "within a constrained, Ivy-like footprint"? How about swimming? Field Hockey? Every other sport at Greorgetown trusts that whatever number Admissions gives them, they can compete--in the end, Georgetown has the final say whether coaches admit the next Andrew Campbell or the next Octavius Spann. But not football, where the Patriot League has the final say that Georgetown can recruit three kids with between a 3.6-3.7 GPA and a 1330-1365 SAT, but just not four. It's arbitrary to a fault, and if there's a Stanford or Duke-caliber recruit that can come to Georgetown and graduate, turning him away simply because it doesn't fit the league's SAT narrow range for Georgetown (whose average SAT's are 200+ points higher than what Fordham has) is a huge disadvantage. Apples and pomelos. For starters, I think you understand very well how differently football is perceived, rightly or wrongly (more right than wrong at this point, unfortunately), in academia. Next, baseball, swimming, and field hockey don't have 90 people on the team. Moreover, the distribution of academic merit throughout the pool of D-I talent looks very different for football than it does for baseball or swimming and field hockey. There is an understanding of what tradeoffs are required in order to compete, and those tradeoffs look very different from sport to sport. Admissions decisions are made accordingly. Even without an externally imposed AI, the field hockey coach can't admit the next Octavius Spann. JTIII can admit a baker's dozen of them. Them's the breaks. You're right, though, that the rigid bands are dumb and should be modified. I'm not very sympathetic to the arguments I have heard for keeping them as is. Remember, football didn't get near a single Ivy opponent in our lifetimes before 2003. It wasn't about "appearances", but somehow good kids were admitted and graduated and not everyone was on an administrative bell curve. This reinforces my point: even without an externally-mandated "administrative bell curve," there was still effectively an internally mandated one. Good kids had been admitted and graduated and moving to an AI didn't change this very much. We didn't suddenly start doing worse because we had to meet the AI. Instead, we did better, because the AI was largely a wash and the University's overall financial aid budget continued to rise, making a GU education feasible for more and more middle-class students. And we could start using the Patriot League's reputation in recruiting. The irony is that for a school which was once the visible leader opposing Prop 42 in basketball, the idea of legislated SAT ranges for admission is now deemed acceptable. I get the Prop 42 argument, and there's some merit to it, but John Thompson Jr. could make that argument because he was dealing with a basketball team of a dozen players. Healy Hall was willing to go along with that. They would not have gone along with bringing in 90 barely-qualifiers. We're not going to start saying that the SAT doesn't matter. It did then, and it does now. Besides, the accepted compromise didn't do away with GPA and testing requirements for players to be eligible to play, so the notion of a legislated cutoff for student-athletes didn't really go away anyway. At best, it earned them a year to prove that they belonged in college. |
|
|
|
Post by Problem of Dog on Nov 30, 2013 14:39:30 GMT -5
Please get into POD - with your wealth of complaining and useless, non-productive, whiney comments....man you such an deleted, I wish you would step out from your on-line facade and let me come talk to you in person about Gtown FB someday! My guess is that you are just some deleted that never stepped on a field at the HS or Pop Warner level - right? Haha. So childish. But I should've expected it on the heels of your idea that is even more implausible than Georgetown moving up to FBS football. |
|
? I expect it would be to the Board and Leaders looking at schools like JMU spending $62m on stadium alone!
