thebin
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Post by thebin on Oct 23, 2013 10:12:33 GMT -5
www.gallup.com/poll/165539/first-time-americans-favor-legalizing-marijuana.aspxI'm hard pressed to think of so rapid and so thorough a sea change on a major cultural issue as this. From a political non-starter even on the left to victory in about 5-7 years. A CLEAR majority, almost half among the elderly, and over a third of REPUBLICANS....now support recreational pot legalization. That was awfully quick. The number will be at 75% in a couple of years, with the strongest opposition coming overwhelming from the elderly. Let's see how many people refuse to read the writing on the wall and further tar the GOP as the party of last century rather than the present by fighting a completely useless rearguard action in the waning days of pot prohibition.
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prhoya
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Post by prhoya on Oct 23, 2013 10:35:31 GMT -5
Thanks, thebin. Whatever side someone stands on this issue, it's an amazing turnaround.
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nychoya3
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Post by nychoya3 on Oct 23, 2013 13:04:31 GMT -5
Reminiscent of gay marriage. And it could play out similarly, with a successful state by state effort to legalize and regulate in the WA/CO model. Expect to see additional ballot measures, with some big dominoes (especially CA).
Will be interesting to see if political leaders in both parties try to get ahead of the crowd. Will Hillary announce some tentative support for legalization in 2016? It's not inconceivable.
The conflict between state and federal law needs to be sorted out though. It's a mess right now.
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thebin
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Post by thebin on Oct 23, 2013 13:21:50 GMT -5
It is reminiscent of gay marriage but frankly it has moved even faster. There are a lot of Christian farmers out there that like their herb. I don't worry about the federal law at all. With public opinion moving at light speed in one direction, federal law will fall into line, we're seeing it already.
As a libertarian, both trends excite me. As a former Republican who wants to be able to vote for a grown-up limited government conservative one day for national office that doesn't lose by 150 electoral votes and fail to take a single state outside of the Confederacy, I hope this will spur momentum to eject the values Republicans who are like so much dead weight on the national electoral ship in the coming decades. I realize because Americans have self-selected into regions where most people think like they do (on the left and right), many conservatives don't yet see this and are still under some delusion that Obama hatred is a winning argument in itself. But it is clear as day that demographics and the national political culture are running at full speed in the opposite direction of the dinosaur Know-Nothings like Bachmann, Palin, Cruz, Perry & Santorum. If they don’t, looks like Dixie will manage to destroy the party of Lincoln after all.
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TC
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Post by TC on Oct 23, 2013 13:45:08 GMT -5
It is reminiscent of gay marriage but frankly it has moved even faster. I think they are moving at about the same speed - gay marriage was a question that wasn't even polled before 1996. If we take 1996 as a starting point for both, they are both roughly at 27%, and then both reached majority status at about the same time. www.gallup.com/poll/162398/sex-marriage-support-solidifies-above.aspxWhile gay marriage still faces religious opposition, marijuana is going to face NIMBY opposition. Some percent of people not threatened by the idea of legalization are going to oppose because they don't want dispensaries and groweries in their backyard.
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thebin
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Post by thebin on Oct 23, 2013 14:07:27 GMT -5
I'l admit TC- I was pretty surprised to see gay marriage above single digits in 1996. Fair enough. At the same time methinks pot acceptance is on a rocket ship to 80% and gay marriage acceptance has more determined opposition and will be creeping up more slowly. There is a core of people who are not open to changing their mind on the latter but don't have a dog in the former fight.
That NIMBY opposition will have to deal with very real tax loss issues once everyone sees how much money American farmers and dispenseries are taking from the Zetas and Juarez and Sinaloa cartels in Mexico. I think the fear of gay marriage reaches a deeper part of the reptilian brain (as it were) than does pot. For one reason or another I think homosexuality threatens some conservative people on a much more profound level than pot. I think it sparks a existential panic in people who (in my opinion) have to start questioning their whole belief system in a way that pot doesn't trigger. I think most people at some level know pot is not worse than Bourbon in any defensible way.
I think pot dispensery NIMBYism at first will be real, but also don't think it won't be long until it is more like alcohol and blue laws/ dry towns, etc now. Especially as people come to understand that stoned people are far preferable neighbors to drunk people.
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Boz
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Post by Boz on Oct 23, 2013 14:17:26 GMT -5
It'll be interesting to see how a reconciliation is reached between the growing acceptance of marijuana (which is just fine with me in case anyone cares, which they probably don't) with the continued trend to try to ban smoking tobacco cigarettes pretty much everywhere.
Not sure if I am up to date, but I am pretty sure there are lots of municipalities (in California and elsewhere) that are trying to or even have banned cigarettes even in private residences (not detached homes, I don't think, but apartments and condos).
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jgalt
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Post by jgalt on Oct 24, 2013 8:24:40 GMT -5
It'll be interesting to see how a reconciliation is reached between the growing acceptance of marijuana (which is just fine with me in case anyone cares, which they probably don't) with the continued trend to try to ban smoking tobacco cigarettes pretty much everywhere. Not sure if I am up to date, but I am pretty sure there are lots of municipalities (in California and elsewhere) that are trying to or even have banned cigarettes even in private residences (not detached homes, I don't think, but apartments and condos). Yeah. This is something that interests me as well. Strange how support for anti smoking laws has grown right along with support for legalization of pot. I have friends who complain all the time about people smoking in public (on the street, not like in a restaurant), but they will go to an outdoor concert and smoke pot like its not a big thing. Personally, cigarette smoke doesnt bother me that much, but the smell of pot makes me want to throw up.
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thebin
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Post by thebin on Oct 24, 2013 12:07:36 GMT -5
Totally disagree. On the secondhand smoke front, pot smoke to me is much more pleasant smelling and doesn't make my breathing feel impeded nearly as much as when people are smoking butts near me. Part of that may be you generally are not going to be walking for two blocks right behind someone smoking a joint but you will every day in NYC rush hour. I'd say pot smells more pleasant to me, more like pipe tobacco, cigarettes just smell like smoke to me. I obviously think it should be legal to smoke both outdoors. But I think some ettiqute is in order. For example I think if you are walking on the aforementioned crowded NYC sidewalk or right outside a big building entrance, it is just rude to be smoking because the people around you are going to get hit. And no, I don't mean as a safety precaution- I just respect someone's right not to want to smell a cigarette like I want my right not to have my eardrums pierced by those absurdly loud motorcycles.
People smoking butts in crowded public spaces is a bit like farting in an elevator to me...but not nearly that funny. Also...people littering their cigarette butts on the ground...that can't be acceptable anymore.
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Boz
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Post by Boz on Oct 24, 2013 14:32:42 GMT -5
What if someone just smells bad or has an unpleasant body odor? Shouldn't we tell them they are not allowed in crowded outdoor spaces and New York City streets too?
Also, I'm pretty sure you haven't been to a concert in a while. Outdoors OR indoors.
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DFW HOYA
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Post by DFW HOYA on Oct 24, 2013 14:46:05 GMT -5
I'm hard pressed to think of so rapid and so thorough a sea change on a major cultural issue as this. This issue has been on a steady rise since the early 1970's, when only 12 percent of the population favored it. By contrast, the gay marriage issue was consistently opposed by numbers of two to one as late as 2006. The drug issue is not the slam dunk you suggest. The issue still lacks consensus support regionally (opposiiton tends to center in the Midwest, but surprisingly less so the South), among families and among those who attend church regularly. FWIW, I would oppose it on public health grounds in that the nation doesn't need any more people on the roads or in the workplace under the influence. Secondarily, it would be validated as an acceptable behavior by school age kids, much as tobacco used to be. (That, and it stinks.)
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thebin
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Post by thebin on Oct 24, 2013 15:12:05 GMT -5
DFW....I luv ya man but your must be joking. Look at the trend, look how enormously broad the appeal is....almost half of the elderly, and more than a third of GOP. Would anyone like to bet me a BET beer that the GOP % won't be 50 within 5 years? And of course a very clear majority among those under 40 already. Yes, some conservative blue pockets (which are becoming more purple rapidly) are lagging...but that's all they are doing. Lagging.
It is a slam dunk. This is the begining of the end of pot prohibition. Yes, there will be "dry" pockets of the country, but there are also towns in this country where you can't buy booze on Sunday. After all we only pretend to be the freeist country on earth when we want to mock countries we've never been to and know nothing about. This will have to suffice.
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jgalt
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Post by jgalt on Oct 24, 2013 15:14:35 GMT -5
Oh I dont want there to be laws about it. I oppose those Cigarette laws. I am speaking more to the attitude that I witness in my peers that see pot smoking as substantially different from cigarette smoking, when there really arent that different. Thebin talked about being considerate and thats all I want, but dont really see that being the case from my experience.
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thebin
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Post by thebin on Oct 24, 2013 16:11:07 GMT -5
What if someone just smells bad or has an unpleasant body odor? Shouldn't we tell them they are not allowed in crowded outdoor spaces and New York City streets too? Also, I'm pretty sure you haven't been to a concert in a while. Outdoors OR indoors. Not exactly sure who Boz was replying to....if it was me.....As I also said, I don't want laws about this, it is a matter rather of personal etiquette. I also believe it is very rude to stink and go out in public. I don't want either to be illegal. Been to lots of concerts. Find the smell of burning pot mild and fragrant. If a guy walking in front of me is smoking a cigarette I feel like he is forcing a hot ashtray up my nose.
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EasyEd
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Post by EasyEd on Oct 24, 2013 18:21:02 GMT -5
Question: if pot becomes totally legal, should there be any controls imposed, like the age restriction on cigarettes?
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TC
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Post by TC on Oct 24, 2013 18:24:58 GMT -5
Question: if pot becomes totally legal, should there be any controls imposed, like the age restriction on cigarettes? Yes.
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SFHoya99
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Post by SFHoya99 on Oct 24, 2013 20:10:57 GMT -5
I'm all for legalization but I think it should be treated similarly to cigarettes/alcohol.
Driving while intoxicated is still going to be an issue, and I don't think it should be something allowed in public, much like cigarette smoke. People shouldn't have to effectively smoke it if they choose not to.
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seaweed
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Post by seaweed on Oct 24, 2013 21:06:00 GMT -5
There is currently a presumption that driving after smoking = impaired, no matter how impaired they are at that moment. In a post legalization scenario, zero tolerance may not work and someone may need to create a reasonable standard for gauging whether your use has affected your ability to operate - a la blood alcohol levels etc
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thebin
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Post by thebin on Oct 25, 2013 8:36:37 GMT -5
Question: if pot becomes totally legal, should there be any controls imposed, like the age restriction on cigarettes? Yes. 18. 18 should be the age for voting, drinking, smoking, joining the army. Period. One age for adulthood.
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seaweed
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Post by seaweed on Oct 25, 2013 10:26:00 GMT -5
But 16 for girls;-)
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