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Post by ColumbiaHeightsHoya on Jan 22, 2014 13:19:53 GMT -5
I can't believe we are already projecting pro recruits for our upcoming 2014 class. I hate to lose Copeland/White/Peak before we even see them play.
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seaweed
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Post by seaweed on Jan 22, 2014 13:33:32 GMT -5
Dungeonball, coming from you I take that as an unqualified compliment.
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hoyaboya
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Post by hoyaboya on Jan 22, 2014 14:01:04 GMT -5
I'm not sure that's really necessary. Stripping away the stuff that happens anyway, you have: Tell Josh, Moses and Aaron they aren't welcome next year. Push Hayes and Domingo out the door. Aside from any ethical concerns, the first point is only relevant for 2014 from a personnel standpoint. Right now, we have no scholarships available for 2014, but FOUR more (at minimum) available for 2015 (Josh, Moses, Aaron, Hop, Trawick is five - Derrickson has taken one). There's no 2015 crunch. There's no concern for 2015 recruits re: playing time you're fixing with this, because no one is looking at Hayes or Domingo and thinking "I can't beat that guy out." How many recruits do you think are really worth it in 2014? At most, I expect one. And we're likely to get that scholarship organically -- whether a transfer, academic casualty or Moses or Aaron deciding to get on with the next stage of their lives. There's only one good reason for a house-cleaning: if the players in question are chemistry poison; if they don't won't; if they party too much; if they set a bad example. Otherwise, no. There is very good reason to bring in a 2014 big even if they aren't ready to contribute in 2014 (simply so that it doesn't take three years to get a contributing upper class big). But unless two ready-to-play-now 2014 bigs come up... can you really see a reason to take two projects? So the why not? There's no real benefit to going big, and players like Aaron, Moses and possibly Josh could contribute next year. And we really have no reason to write off Domingo and Hayes yet if the staff thinks they can develop. Because nine guys across 2014 and 2015 is fine. And 2016 can be planned to be a big class as well -- Domingo, Hayes, DSR and very possibly a Copeland or Peak (or even White) turning pro. I generally agree with most of this. One area I'd differ is in Peak being more likely to go pro early than White. While Peak is a monster athletically, he's got a long way to go as a 6'5" guy to be able to play his position in the league (specifically shooting and handle-wise as YaBoyNp detailed in his excellent scouting report). While White is not as athletic as Copeland, he's still plenty athletic for his position (SF) in the NBA and I believe has as good/better measurables (including reach) compared to Copeland based on measurements from this summer's Nike EYBL stuff. I bring Moses back next year without hesitation. We need his minutes in the post, there simply are not enough bigs returning and I'd be shocked if we somehow recruit a guy in the spring that can play right away. The only potential exception to that is a senior transfer and hopefully the staff is actively looking for those types of guys as we speak. I don't think we can count on Joshua Smith for anything, and unless he gets eligible and shows a serious attitude/production transformation in these last 6-8 weeks of the 2013-2014 season, I wouldn't invite him back for next year. Domingo and Hayes are interesting in that, despite both appearing to have potential, they are clearly in the coaching staff's doghouse and if I were them, I'd be looking to transfer elsewhere. It's a shame, particularly in the case of Domingo, whose high school production and recruiting experts' perspectives on his potential have not translated through one and two-thirds seasons at Georgetown. He's my pick for being the next Benimon, a guy that has a good deal of success after leaving Georgetown. I'd love to be wrong and have him come back, live up to his reputation as a sniper and be productive in his last 2 years on the Hilltop. However, it's hard to imagine that scenario based on what we've seen from him and the staff's unwillingness to play him. Bowen's interesting in that he's been a spark at times this year and last, has a year of eligibility left, but plays a position that directly conflicts with some of the talent in the 2014 recruiting class. I'd likely encourage him to transfer elsewhere if he wants to play a final season, unless he's a stud leadership-wise. From the outside, he seems like a very nice kid and I applaud the patience he's shown in staying with the program. If the staff will use him, then I think they should bring him back. If they're going to jerk him around, play him 29 minutes one game and 13 minutes behind Caprio the next, then I think both sides are best off parting ways. Or, if they can let Aaron know that he's not going to play a ton, but they can use his leadership in practice and off the court, and he's willing to take a backseat in order to finish his degree/start working on a graduate degree, I'd be all for bringing him back. I think the really interesting guys that may be difficult to manage next year are going to be Trawick and Hopkins. Those guys haven't taken as much of a leap as we hoped this year, with Hopkins being a bit better than last year and Trawick seeming to have regressed. Both could be passed up by the newcomers. How they handle that could go a long way toward defining whether next year's team is a successful squad with seniors taking young, talented guys under their wing, or one with potential off-the-court issues. I'm not close enough to the program to know what kind of guys Jabril and Mikael are...both seem like solid citizens but I could see this year's frustrating season along with potential disappointments next year taking a toll. Moving forward, 6'7"+ guys that can play the post are critical adds. IMO, 2 of the next 3 or 4 schollies given out need to be guys that fit that mold. Derrickson may be one of those, but it seems like he's trying to become more of an outside guy than a 4. As SFHoya99 said eloquently, we just need serviceable guys like Gardner/Stainback/Teague, we don't need a superstar/stud recruit...just people who don't hurt us when they're in the game.
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SFHoya99
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Post by SFHoya99 on Jan 22, 2014 15:56:51 GMT -5
I don't know that Hayes and Domingo are in the staff's doghouse. They just haven't earned playing time. They may be doing the right things and working but simply not be better than those ahead of them.
There's a difference between the staff not playing someone but seeing a future for them and seeing no future. I don't know that we can infer their view of Hayes or Domingo solely on PT. Especially since both are sophomores losing out time to academic juniors and seniors.
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SFHoya99
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Post by SFHoya99 on Jan 22, 2014 16:00:20 GMT -5
I can't believe we are already projecting pro recruits for our upcoming 2014 class. I hate to lose Copeland/White/Peak before we even see them play. It sucks, but a recruiting plan that has Copeland staying more than two years is one that is taking on unnecessary risk. You obviously aren't going to push him out, and yes, he could stay longer, but he has the thing that the NBA covets -- length and athleticism relative to his skillset. If he can swing between the 3/4 at 6'10", hit threes and score, defend and rebound, he's a valuable NBA asset. Hoyaboya is right; Peak is a bit short to be a no-brainer SG unless he scores like Bledsoe or Gordon and White's path to the NBA is like Otto's. His athleticism is not high for the NBA but he can make it up in skill and smart play. I still think he's a step below Otto in athleticism and skill, so two and out like Otto is less likely but you never know.
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seaweed
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Post by seaweed on Jan 22, 2014 16:14:37 GMT -5
He's my pick for being the next Benimon, a guy that has a good deal of success after leaving Georgetown. If we get picks, I've got Brandon Bolden. Agree 100% about giving schollies out to post players. I would argue that we recruit bodies and have Othella turn them into players, but start with raw guys who specialize in being big and strong. We teach all our guys to defend thugs who power them down on the blocks, but then on offense it feels as though we don't teach them to power guys down. We need power in the paint, cause new Big East or not we will always encounter wide bodies who pound it - from Joey Dorsey to Dennis Kiliclwhatevertheheckitwas. I recall being at Lubick's first games and thinking, there is a guy who catches the ball and thinks, "Can I reach the rim from here to dunk?" Boy was I off. I thought we had something in Joshua and I suppose the jury may still be called back to reconsider new evidence, but as of now we are on the verge of a mistrial. If Moses is going to take three dribbles, they should all be between his legs backing a guy down in isolation - no more lateral moves across a crowded lane that net a fall away running hook further from the hoop than he started. Hops at the rim = DaJuan, painfully DaJuan. All of which is better than catching the ball 18 feet out and looking like a deer in the headlights.
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TBird41
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Post by TBird41 on Jan 22, 2014 16:49:10 GMT -5
How quickly they turn... After 14,811 posts, its pretty clear that more posting time isn't going to lead to you developing the skills Hoyatalk needs from you.
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SFHoya99
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Post by SFHoya99 on Jan 22, 2014 20:14:22 GMT -5
How quickly they turn... After 14,811 posts, its pretty clear that more posting time isn't going to lead to you developing the skills Hoyatalk needs from you. This is all practice time, though. Some people just need game time to shine. I know if I could just get consistent front page posts I could be a star!
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EtomicB
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Post by EtomicB on Jan 23, 2014 8:53:48 GMT -5
The staff isn't on him Talos.. He'd be a good fit with the 2014 class given his skill set & length... JT3 & Broadus saw him play well in a game against Brewster Academy in a December tourney.. Thanks....that's too bad. It seems they are looking more at De La Rosa? www.newenglandrecruitingreport.com/news/article/3392/Unsigned-Series-Matt-Cimino.phpThe two months since have been some of the best basketball that Cimino has ever played. He’s averaging just under 20 points, 8 rebounds, and 2 blocks per game while leading one of the youngest Worcester Academy teams in recent memory that has already taken on the likes of Brewster Academy, Northfield Mount Hermon, New Hampton, South Kent, and St. Thomas More in addition to their typical Class AA schedule. Cimino’s revitalization has come in correlation to the development of his post game, as he’s playing inside-out for the first time in his career, proving his ability to score on the block in addition to his well known shooting range.
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Post by cosmopolitanhoya on Jan 23, 2014 9:16:41 GMT -5
While I agree to certain extent that copeland/peak/white are somewhat underrated per high school scout reports, there are still at least over 20+ players in the class that are more talented than these guys (I see Copeland is a top 20 player, White/Peak about 30 instead of the listed top 50/75 for these guys). I know a lot of you guys expect these guys to be game changers, but I'd be more cautious with their prospects.
More realistic version of their NBA prospects is that both White and Peak are 4 years players, while Copeland is a 3 year player. I think Copeland can be as talented as Jeff, who was also a 3 years player, and that is no knock on him, when he has been arguable the most talented player under JT3. As of White/Peak, I don't see any instant jumps from them into NBA as underclassmen. Which is actually good for the program if the staffs can continue to build the recruiting momentum into the 2015/16 class.
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EtomicB
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Post by EtomicB on Jan 23, 2014 11:25:54 GMT -5
While I agree to certain extent that copeland/peak/white are somewhat underrated per high school scout reports, there are still at least over 20+ players in the class that are more talented than these guys (I see Copeland is a top 20 player, White/Peak about 30 instead of the listed top 50/75 for these guys). I know a lot of you guys expect these guys to be game changers, but I'd be more cautious with their prospects. More realistic version of their NBA prospects is that both White and Peak are 4 years players, while Copeland is a 3 year player. I think Copeland can be as talented as Jeff, who was also a 3 years player, and that is no knock on him, when he has been arguable the most talented player under JT3. As of White/Peak , I don't see any instant jumps from them into NBA as underclassmen. Which is actually good for the program if the staffs can continue to build the recruiting momentum into the 2015/16 class. I believe they'll be game changers because their skill sets especially Copeland & White fit the system JT3 runs. All 4 recruits would be playing on this years team.. This class plus Derrickson gives me a lot of hope going forward and I hope you're right about them not jumping early to the NBA.. If the staff can shore up the 5 spot by 2015, I think the team will be very very tough to beat..
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Post by cosmopolitanhoya on Jan 23, 2014 12:08:12 GMT -5
While I agree to certain extent that copeland/peak/white are somewhat underrated per high school scout reports, there are still at least over 20+ players in the class that are more talented than these guys (I see Copeland is a top 20 player, White/Peak about 30 instead of the listed top 50/75 for these guys). I know a lot of you guys expect these guys to be game changers, but I'd be more cautious with their prospects. More realistic version of their NBA prospects is that both White and Peak are 4 years players, while Copeland is a 3 year player. I think Copeland can be as talented as Jeff, who was also a 3 years player, and that is no knock on him, when he has been arguable the most talented player under JT3. As of White/Peak , I don't see any instant jumps from them into NBA as underclassmen. Which is actually good for the program if the staffs can continue to build the recruiting momentum into the 2015/16 class. I believe they'll be game changers because their skill sets especially Copeland & White fit the system JT3 runs. All 4 recruits would be playing on this years team.. This class plus Derrickson gives me a lot of hope going forward and I hope you're right about them not jumping early to the NBA.. If the staff can shore up the 5 spot by 2015, I think the team will be very very tough to beat.. Yes, by "game changers," I have meant players at the caliber of Jabari Parker/Marcus Smart/Julius Randle/Wiggins, who are sure-fire top 10 picks. You are right though, both Ike and Peak fit in JT3's system nicely. Peak is more of an outlier - more talented version of Jessie Sapp/Jabil/Aaron Bowen, but these guys have never been the top 3 options on their teams. Derrickson is a very good player, and I think he will be a very solid collegiate player (solid would be understatement, more like outstanding actually with a very high ceiling), but I don't see him as a good NBA prospect. Derrickson has been dominating high school competition, with the help from his overwhelming strength that at high school that cannot simply be stopped. Although different position and type of player he is, it's kinda how Shabazz completely destroyed his competition at high school level, because he was just so freaking strong, but was not able to translate that fully to live up to his hype at college or NBA level. Even though Derrickson is already playing at a very high competition level, he will not be as dominant as he is in high school, and certainly won't be able to do that on NBA. If Derrickson grows 2-3 more inches into 6-9/6-10 with a better jump shot, however, watch out.
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EtomicB
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Post by EtomicB on Jan 23, 2014 13:32:02 GMT -5
I believe they'll be game changers because their skill sets especially Copeland & White fit the system JT3 runs. All 4 recruits would be playing on this years team.. This class plus Derrickson gives me a lot of hope going forward and I hope you're right about them not jumping early to the NBA.. If the staff can shore up the 5 spot by 2015, I think the team will be very very tough to beat.. Yes, by "game changers," I have meant players at the caliber of Jabari Parker/Marcus Smart/Julius Randle/Wiggins, who are sure-fire top 10 picks. You are right though, both Ike and Peak fit in JT3's system nicely. Peak is more of an outlier - more talented version of Jessie Sapp/Jabil/Aaron Bowen, but these guys have never been the top 3 options on their teams. Derrickson is a very good player, and I think he will be a very solid collegiate player (solid would be understatement, more like outstanding actually with a very high ceiling), but I don't see him as a good NBA prospect. Derrickson has been dominating high school competition, with the help from his overwhelming strength that at high school that cannot simply be stopped. Although different position and type of player he is, it's kinda how Shabazz completely destroyed his competition at high school level, because he was just so freaking strong, but was not able to translate that fully to live up to his hype at college or NBA level. Even though Derrickson is already playing at a very high competition level, he will not be as dominant as he is in high school, and certainly won't be able to do that on NBA. If Derrickson grows 2-3 more inches into 6-9/6-10 with a better jump shot, however, watch out. What has Parker or Randall really done for their teams though? They're great player and lottery picks for sure but neither Duke or Kentucky are final 4 locks, in fact I don't think anyone Would be surprised if they lost in the 1st weekend of the tourney. Same goes for Ok. State. Kansas is a different story though if Embid(sp?) keeps improving like he has.. I don't care about the NBA just gimme kids who fit the system & can play.. DSR is a borderline prospect pro wise but he's a very good college player now and has the potential to be even better in college.. Markel is a very good college player too but not a pro prospect and that's ok to me.. The only thing I want for any G'town recruit is to be the best college player they can be, the rest will take care of itself.. On Edit: Look at L'ville where's their game changer superstar? They went to a final 4 & won the championship without a bonafide lock NBA player.. Plus they're top 15 again this year..
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SFHoya99
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Post by SFHoya99 on Jan 23, 2014 14:01:58 GMT -5
I believe they'll be game changers because their skill sets especially Copeland & White fit the system JT3 runs. All 4 recruits would be playing on this years team.. This class plus Derrickson gives me a lot of hope going forward and I hope you're right about them not jumping early to the NBA.. If the staff can shore up the 5 spot by 2015, I think the team will be very very tough to beat.. Yes, by "game changers," I have meant players at the caliber of Jabari Parker/Marcus Smart/Julius Randle/Wiggins, who are sure-fire top 10 picks. You are right though, both Ike and Peak fit in JT3's system nicely. Peak is more of an outlier - more talented version of Jessie Sapp/Jabil/Aaron Bowen, but these guys have never been the top 3 options on their teams. Derrickson is a very good player, and I think he will be a very solid collegiate player (solid would be understatement, more like outstanding actually with a very high ceiling), but I don't see him as a good NBA prospect. Derrickson has been dominating high school competition, with the help from his overwhelming strength that at high school that cannot simply be stopped. Although different position and type of player he is, it's kinda how Shabazz completely destroyed his competition at high school level, because he was just so freaking strong, but was not able to translate that fully to live up to his hype at college or NBA level. Even though Derrickson is already playing at a very high competition level, he will not be as dominant as he is in high school, and certainly won't be able to do that on NBA. If Derrickson grows 2-3 more inches into 6-9/6-10 with a better jump shot, however, watch out. I don't think anyone thinks of these guys that way (ETA: gamechangers). But you don't need to be that guy to go after sophomore year. The draft is on potential, and Copeland is oozing that. If performance is anywhere near quality, he could go. That said, I hope he stays three. But I wouldn't plan on it. I expect a lot of growing pains next year. But I like our staff, and expect them to be coached up sooner rather than later, especially on D. If we had last year's D, this team would be boring but NCAA-worthy. (I do love getting players like Derrickson -- players that may end up being NBA tweener types. More time in college where they can still be super effective! DSR is right in that wheelhouse as well. We need to pair more of these with a few NBA types where it's worth it)
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Post by ColumbiaHeightsHoya on Jan 23, 2014 15:03:48 GMT -5
This is Butler's model. Get four year kids and build around a defense. They happened to get pro potential with a few guys who developed like Hayward and Mack but those were the exceptions. This model I think is the most successful model for sustained success. Build around a solid core and if you can reach and get a one or two year guy to fill out and get you over the hump, you do it. Kentucky is the anomaly when they won with Davis and a few upper classmen. I think the Lville team of last year is the most likely to be successful in the future.
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OldHoyafan
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Post by OldHoyafan on Jan 23, 2014 16:08:03 GMT -5
What I think is important here as it relates to the needs of the Hoyas is that these four players potentially give JT3 four players who are athletic enough and skilled enough to fit both his offensive and defensive schemes. That is four/fifths of his staring lineup. I think we all can agree that will be by 2015. Now if Derrickson can play the four position defensively in 2015, then you have a starting lineup of pg-Campbell, sg-Peak, sf-Copeland/White, pf-Derrickson/Copeland/White and centerTBD. If III wanted to go small line-up he could play Copeland/White at the center spot and all five 2014-2015 recruits would be starting. In a word III will have "flexibility". That is the exiting thing about the incoming class. None may reach the heights of Otto, but they all have the legitimate potential to contribute at a high level in both the offense and defense, that III has not had since the Green/PE,Jr/Hibbert years. The present lineup has too many one dimensional players they can shoot well (DSR,Markel, Cameron) or play defense well(Nate,Hopkins, Jabril) or rebound well(Ayegba,Bowen) but none that can do all three. Princeton on Steroids would finally officially be here.
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SFHoya99
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Post by SFHoya99 on Jan 23, 2014 16:22:37 GMT -5
I think there's a pretty good chance DSR is still starting for us in 2015.
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prhoya
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Post by prhoya on Jan 23, 2014 16:35:19 GMT -5
What I think is important here as it relates to the needs of the Hoyas is that these four players potentially give JT3 four players who are athletic enough and skilled enough to fit both his offensive and defensive schemes. That is four/fifths of his staring lineup. I think we all can agree that will be by 2015. Now if Derrickson can play the four position defensively in 2015, then you have a starting lineup of pg-Campbell, sg-Peak, sf-Copeland/White, pf-Derrickson/Copeland/White and centerTBD. If III wanted to go small line-up he could play Copeland/White at the center spot and all five 2014-2015 recruits would be starting. In a word III will have "flexibility". That is the exiting thing about the incoming class. None may reach the heights of Otto, but they all have the legitimate potential to contribute at a high level in both the offense and defense, that III has not had since the Green/PE,Jr/Hibbert years. Where's DSR?
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hoyaboya
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Post by hoyaboya on Jan 23, 2014 19:38:32 GMT -5
What I think is important here as it relates to the needs of the Hoyas is that these four players potentially give JT3 four players who are athletic enough and skilled enough to fit both his offensive and defensive schemes. That is four/fifths of his staring lineup. I think we all can agree that will be by 2015. Now if Derrickson can play the four position defensively in 2015, then you have a starting lineup of pg-Campbell, sg-Peak, sf-Copeland/White, pf-Derrickson/Copeland/White and centerTBD. If III wanted to go small line-up he could play Copeland/White at the center spot and all five 2014-2015 recruits would be starting. In a word III will have "flexibility". That is the exiting thing about the incoming class. None may reach the heights of Otto, but they all have the legitimate potential to contribute at a high level in both the offense and defense, that III has not had since the Green/PE,Jr/Hibbert years. The present lineup has too many one dimensional players they can shoot well (DSR,Markel, Cameron) or play defense well(Nate,Hopkins, Jabril) or rebound well(Ayegba,Bowen) but none that can do all three. Princeton on Steroids would finally officially be here. I would say DSR has proven he's not one dimensional.
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gujake
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Post by gujake on Jan 23, 2014 22:46:46 GMT -5
Yeah, at the very least he's proven to be a great rebounder for his size. And he has come a long way on defense already. He should be commended for getting in better shape last offseason.
I would be shocked if he leaves early, though.
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