Boz
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Post by Boz on May 22, 2013 16:09:29 GMT -5
Point taken. Better comparison : It's like saying that Game of Thrones has become more family friendly because the last episode was "Second Sons". Oh, come on now. There was a baby, there was a bath to show you the value of keeping clean, there was a sweet and touching wedding, and there was a wonderful conversation about how cute it is to be "sisters." What's not family friendly about that? Sorry, please resume scandal conversation. I believe someone was saying something about how none of this looks at ALL bad for the administration and there's really nothing to see here about any of these so-called "scandals."
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hoyainspirit
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Post by hoyainspirit on May 23, 2013 9:18:22 GMT -5
Sorry, please resume scandal conversation. I believe someone was saying something about how none of this looks at ALL bad for the administration and there's really nothing to see here about any of these so-called "scandals." Sounds about right!
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Post by rustyshackleford on May 28, 2013 20:06:34 GMT -5
Let me get this straight - Ezra Klein and Josh Marshall are taking orders from the President, and those orders are to demand a pound of flesh from the IRS? Did EasyEd sign up another account? I'm also not sure how Marshall or Klein's takes have changed whatsoever. Klein's "Scandals Are Falling Apart" part about the IRS was about how the Determinations Unit started giving Tea Party groups extra scrutiny, were told to knock it off, and then started doing it again, and there but absolutely no evidence that the West Wing was involved. How's that in any way different from what he wrote in "Heads Should Roll", other than a different title is used? And Marshall has been pretty consistent in his coverage of the IRS thing, and has been the most interested of anyone I've read in the planted question angle. Arguing that their reporting focus has changed based on titles of articles is like arguing that Bon Jovi has gone more towards metal as they aged because "Crush and Bounce" is more of an edgy title than "Bon Jovi" or "New Jersey". Are you actually reading these articles before you issue a response and try to make an analogy using awful musicians? This is the first line of 'the scandals are falling apart': The IRS mess was, well, a mess. But it’s not a mess that implicates the White House, or even senior IRS leadership...The White House fired the acting director of the agency on the theory that somebody had to be fired and he was about the only guy they had the power to fire. Klein concludes that section by saying It's hard to see where to go from here How about not taking the word of the same leaders who admit at the very least to being incredibly incompetent, have planted questions to try to minimize the impact and who have such little control over their agency that politically targeted leaks were occurring? Klein is willing to suspend all disbelief when it's his side - as are you. That's not the point though. Klein's explicitly says nothing has implicated senior leadership in the IRS and doesn't suggest any firings and in fact seems to not consider that a viable option considering that he believes that Miller was axed because 'somebody had to be'. All of a sudden after a closed door meeting with the white house along with other liberal new writers both he and Marshall call for somebody to go in senior leadership (and specifically Lerner). The first line of an article titled 'Yes heads should roll' talks about Lois Lerner invoking the 5th and concludes That is reason enough to fire people, even if the process is difficult.. How much willful ignorance does it take to think that Klein put that mention of Lerner at the beginning just by chance to inform his readers when he really just means low level bureaucrats should be fired at the end? Lerner is pretty senior IRS official and it's clear that at the very least she is going to one of the people the white house has identified as somebody who should be punished for the scandal (and shortly after surprise surprise she was placed on administrative leave). Conservatives will claim she was the fall guy and liberals will claim this is some the administration trying in earnest to clean a mess that they were blind sided by. Except that they weren't - as has been clear with Ruemmler and others. And it turns out that these senior officials are being identified as having a part in this scandal: senior officials involved I wonder when Klein and you will issue an mea culpa and stop reflexively trying to shout down what should be an investigation into chilling corruption.
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TC
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Post by TC on May 28, 2013 22:46:59 GMT -5
Again, Marshall was on Lerner for planting the question in the audience about the treatment conservative groups even before any meeting with the White House. How is that a change? You're hinging some crazy conspiracy theory of reporters being completely in the bag on one phrase about Senior IRS Leadership, when Klein was talking about the Steven Miller level. I honestly still don't see a change in reporting other than more facts coming to light.
The idea that Marshall or Klein are "taking orders" is tinfoil hat crazy.
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hoyainspirit
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Post by hoyainspirit on May 29, 2013 6:40:52 GMT -5
Ed has a disciple in rusty.
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Elvado
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May 29, 2013 8:23:21 GMT -5
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Post by Elvado on May 29, 2013 8:23:21 GMT -5
The better inquiry is how long Holder stays in place. He told Congress he was unaware of the potential prosecution of the media at the same time he was shopping the Rosen subpoena which named Rosen as a co-conspirator.
He is either profoundly dishonest or profoundly incompetent.
Discuss among yourselves.
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TC
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Post by TC on May 29, 2013 8:47:23 GMT -5
Holder is going nowhere. With the GOP holding confirmations hostage, there's no way they get rid of him even if they want to.
Also, if what you just said is what Holder said, I see nothing wrong. They never charged Rosen with anything, thus no potential prosecution of the media.
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Elvado
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May 29, 2013 9:17:23 GMT -5
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Post by Elvado on May 29, 2013 9:17:23 GMT -5
He named him a co-conspirator. Then denied knowledge of potential media prosecution.
Of course, in the grand scheme of current administration abuses, that is small potatoes.
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TC
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Post by TC on May 29, 2013 10:59:45 GMT -5
He named him a co-conspirator. Then denied knowledge of potential media prosecution. Of course, in the grand scheme of current administration abuses, that is small potatoes. Don't sell yourself short, semantics are an outrage! Outrage!
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Boz
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Post by Boz on May 29, 2013 12:09:07 GMT -5
In Holder's defense, saying "Well,yeah. I named him a co-conspirator, but I didn't really mean it. That was just to get someone to sign the subpoena..." ...probably wouldn't go over too well.
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Elvado
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Post by Elvado on May 29, 2013 15:22:01 GMT -5
That pesky "Candor to the Tribunal" thing rears its ugly head yet again...
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Elvado
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Post by Elvado on May 29, 2013 15:22:12 GMT -5
That pesky "Candor to the Tribunal" thing rears its ugly head yet again...
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Post by rustyshackleford on Jun 2, 2013 15:55:33 GMT -5
Again, Marshall was on Lerner for planting the question in the audience about the treatment conservative groups even before any meeting with the White House. How is that a change? You're hinging some crazy conspiracy theory of reporters being completely in the bag on one phrase about Senior IRS Leadership, when Klein was talking about the Steven Miller level. I honestly still don't see a change in reporting other than more facts coming to light. The idea that Marshall or Klein are "taking orders" is tinfoil hat crazy. No. That was Eric Lach - a separate reporter on livewire (unless you want to give credit to Marshall for everything everybody writes on that site) who Marshall merely linked to. Lach 'broke' that story on the 17th - the same day when Miller testified to the committee that it was planted. Additionally, a writer from the national review had already pointed out it was likely a plant 3 days before. So Marshall wasn't doggedly going after Miller by breaking the plant story because 1. He didn't write it 2. It wasn't their scoop considering they were beaten to it by three days and Miller himself testified to it that day and 3. Even in his link he offered no commentary on it. Either way though your entire thesis is that because of that planted question revelation Marshall was clearly going after Lerner before the meeting so it wasn't some new reversal when he wrote 'she must go'. First you're just wrong on the facts on the plant article. Additionally, I read tpm daily and you can go through the archives and see that nowhere before that article did Marshall seem to suggest she should take the fall or even devote much ink pointing her out as a culpable figure here, take a look. The Lerner article was an abrupt change in how he covered the IRS issue and a departure from most of his coverage where he seemed more concerned with political implications (his coverage of the issue has reverted back to that since). So all the evidence seems to suggest that he had a new perspective on the issue after that meeting. There's no crazy conspiracy here - these were two administration friendly reporters who had a meeting with the white house and who previously either didn't care about or didn't think Lerner was culpable and probably learned she was going to be pretty hard to defend and decided to make that the next narrative. It's amazing willful suspension of disbelief to think they went there to have evening tea and that their articles weren't informed by the meeting when you consider how similar and uncharacteristic of previous coverage their pieces were the following day. That the IRS was improperly targeting tea party group was 'tinfoil hat crazy'. This suggestion is something that is obvious to anybody who doesn't have their preferred party's water to carry.
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Post by rustyshackleford on Jun 2, 2013 16:18:10 GMT -5
Ed has a disciple in rusty. If you want to substantively discuss something I'll be glad to. Otherwise I'll continue to point out BS on the IRS thing the same way I'll be glad to discuss topics like why global warming skeptics are wrong in a lot of cases or why opposing gay marriage is a pretty untenable position or how most of the gun control efforts currently trying to be legislated are very poor. I have no interest in being a partisan shill and joining teams.
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hoyainspirit
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Post by hoyainspirit on Jun 3, 2013 11:54:43 GMT -5
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Boz
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Post by Boz on Jun 3, 2013 16:51:59 GMT -5
So, the New York Times, The Washington Post and MSNBC are all saying that the GOP is overreaching, huh?
I'm shocked. That was completely unpredictable and unexpected.
No, wait. That's not what I mean.
What are the exact opposite words for "shocked," "unpredictable," and "unexpected"?
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Post by rustyshackleford on Jun 3, 2013 17:13:01 GMT -5
There's no doubt that republicans are going to overreach on these things - many of them are simply obsessed about going after President Obama and are as hypocritical and unprincipled as the democrats who don't give two s about integrity when it comes to their party. The Shulman visits to the white house story shows what happens when they get too far ahead in their Obama hatred to try to logically look at things. However, there are some serious issues in all of these scandals. The fact that every single post you've made has been an article to try to deflect/change the conversation/conspicuously minimize serious problems or try make these seem issues seem like mere politicizations makes your previous post ironic - who's clearly the partisan stooge not acting in good faith? That's fine though - If all you're going to do is regurgitate articles from sources that support your political inclinations though I'll make sure to bury them with links to legitimate news.
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hoyainspirit
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Post by hoyainspirit on Jun 3, 2013 17:13:22 GMT -5
^^^I'm shocked. The previous two responses were completely unpredictable and unexpected. No, wait. That's not what I mean. What are the exact opposite words for "shocked," "unpredictable," and "unexpected"?
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Post by rustyshackleford on Jun 3, 2013 17:15:59 GMT -5
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Post by rustyshackleford on Jun 3, 2013 17:18:50 GMT -5
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