MCIGuy
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Post by MCIGuy on Mar 31, 2014 22:01:51 GMT -5
As noted by my previous post there's been quite a few misses on the big man front for this program over the past few recruiting seasons so excuse me if I'm not optimistic when it comes to your top 100 scenario.. Again G'town hasn't landed a top 150 center since Adams, that's just fact.. Ooooohhh. I see now. You are traumatized. It has been personally devastating to you that III has swung for the fences and missed. Understandably you want III to stop having such high aspirations and thereby lower his own personal expectations. Who needs the stress of disappointment, right? Play it safe because that is the way to make it to the top. Uh-huh. Seriously it seems to me that there are many people on this board who bemoan that Gtown is becoming a mid major but in the next sentence are demanding that the Hoyas recruit like one too. There are those who think III's recent track record in post season play should not be seen as a pattern that will continue into the future, but on the other hand thinks III's recent track record on recruiting misses on bigs will continue for an eternity. How about this? How about allowing this NEW STAFF of coaches a year or two to prove themselves before we assume the same results are going to happen? In their first few months together they hauled in a great class, maybe they can do so again for 2015. How about realizing that odds are likely in III's favor that he is going to get one of those top tier bigs again. Hell, he brought in Macklin, Monroe and Sims who were all to 65 talents coming out of high school (with the first two being elite). And even Nate Lubick was a top 65 talent too. But now we are to accept some notion that bringing in bigs of that high ranking is out of the question? Why? I understand that there are some negative trends regarding the program and all but good grief. Some of you might as well slit your writs based on your gloom and doom scenario regarding the most important elements that will determine the strength of this program going forward. Etomic, your little pet peeve just happens to be recruiting centers. What I find shocking though is that you actually seem to assume that III and Co didn't have backup plans in previous years when the centers they pursued went elsewhere. They failed in getting most of their backup-plan big men too. ::Bleep:: happens. It has been a pretty disappointing stretch. But it is still merely a three year dry spell, it isn't as if III has been striking out the entire ten years he has been at GU. Get off his back about it. I never fault III for hitting the road and going after elite big men. If he wants to keep doing that so be it, he knows what is best for his program. I am confident that he will get a high quality center soon. And I'll take it a step further by saying that getting a Rabb or a Commanche would be huge for the conference that so many of your fellow negativity dwellers believe is about to go under. College bball fans love watching the elite prep players on TV, not the three-star centers who they never heard of. III may not get these elite guys in '15, but I don't blame him for trying. To get such a player would be great for the program and great for the conference. I'm sure III has a backup plan or two or ten if his top choices go elsewhere, so why not just wait and see what unfolds rather than going to every other recruiting thread with the same message of taking any big man with a pulse who will commit to the program first?
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EtomicB
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Post by EtomicB on Mar 31, 2014 22:40:30 GMT -5
As noted by my previous post there's been quite a few misses on the big man front for this program over the past few recruiting seasons so excuse me if I'm not optimistic when it comes to your top 100 scenario.. Again G'town hasn't landed a top 150 center since Adams, that's just fact.. Ooooohhh. I see now. You are traumatized. It has been personally devastating to you that III has swung for the fences and missed. Understandably you want III to stop having such high aspirations and thereby lower his own personal expectations. Who needs the stress of disappointment, right? Play it safe because that is the way to make it to the top. Uh-huh. Seriously it seems to me that there are many people on this board who bemoan that Gtown is becoming a mid major but in the next sentence are demanding that the Hoyas recruit like one too. There are those who think III's recent track record in post season play should not be seen as a pattern that will continue into the future, but on the other hand thinks III's recent track record on recruiting misses on bigs will continue for an eternity. How about this? How about allowing this NEW STAFF of coaches a year or two to prove themselves before we assume the same results are going to happen? In their first few months together they hauled in a great class, maybe they can do so again for 2015. How about realizing that odds are likely in III's favor that he is going to get one of those top tier bigs again. Hell, he brought in Macklin, Monroe and Sims who were all to 65 talents coming out of high school (with the first two being elite). And even Nate Lubick was a top 65 talent too. But now we are to accept some notion that bringing in bigs of that high ranking is out of the question? Why? I understand that there are some negative trends regarding the program and all but good grief. Some of you might as well slit your writs based on your gloom and doom scenario regarding the most important elements that will determine the strength of this program going forward. Etomic, your little pet peeve just happens to be recruiting centers. What I find shocking though is that you actually seem to assume that III and Co didn't have backup plans in previous years when the centers they pursued went elsewhere. They failed in getting most of their backup-plan big men too. ::Bleep:: happens. It has been a pretty disappointing stretch. But it is still merely a three year dry spell, it isn't as if III has been striking out the entire ten years he has been at GU. Get off his back about it. I never fault III for hitting the road and going after elite big men. If he wants to keep doing that so be it, he knows what is best for his program. I am confident that he will get a high quality center soon. And I'll take it a step further by saying that getting a Rabb or a Commanche would be huge for the conference that so many of your fellow negativity dwellers believe is about to go under. College bball fans love watching the elite prep players on TV, not the three-star centers who they never heard of. III may not get these elite guys in '15, but I don't blame him for trying. To get such a player would be great for the program and great for the conference. I'm sure III has a backup plan or two or ten if his top choices go elsewhere, so why not just wait and see what unfolds rather than going to every other recruiting thread with the same message of taking any big man with a pulse who will commit to the program first? LOL!! You must write scripts for soaps or something cause you have such a flair for the dramatic.. pure comedy.. I get it though taking a big in 2014 will completely take Rabb or Dickerson or Comanche or Giddens right off the table for the staff.. The "new" staff would have a terrible time selling G'town to them because most highly ranked kids are spooked by lower ranked peers.. I also like how well you cherry picked my previous post and then still try to rant on about 3 star centers who have competed very well in this tournament so far and will have chances to continue their play on saturday..
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MCIGuy
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Post by MCIGuy on Apr 1, 2014 2:33:03 GMT -5
Happy to entertain.
But to break it down for you again the problem of taking some lower ranked center early on is not that it will scare away guys like Rabb or Commanche. It will do something worse. It will eat up scholarships. I think there is a math problem you and others are having in your zeal to pray for a three-star center to be plucked from obscurity very late in the stages of 2014 recruiting. You seem to think that the Hoyas can toss one schollie away and still have room for all the guards, swing men and bigs they will be pursuing in 2015. Well, sorry it doesn't work that way. That used schollie still counts against the cap. But, yes, not getting that center for the 2014 recruiting class would go against your goal of having a center who will, as you put it, be ready to help DSR win a championship by the time he's a senior. Which means this is all about your comfort level and your visualization of what may transpire if III and Co simply follow your plan. That's adorable.
The flaw in such a plan is that that big man who is brought in late in 2014 may simply end up being a dud as late recruits often end up being. Or he may need a couple of seasons before he is ready to contribute positively in the first place. You never know. Frankly I would want to see who is on the roster first even before pursuing such a player. Will Bradley return? Will Moses?
Given those scenarios I can at least understand why you would want to risk a scholarship on some relatively unknown center from the 2014 class. What I don't get is your strategy for the 2015 class. Based upon your statements III should not only go after backup recruits who fall outside any top 100 or top 150 rankings (makes sense), but he should also accept commitments from them FIRST in the early stages of recruiting if those players are ready to commit to Georgetown immediately! Really? What is the point of going after top tier recruits when, even if you are still in the running for them, you end up taking the lower tier recruits first early in the recruiting season? I understand that strategy if you have seven available scholarships to work with or if you are cleaning house and know you are going to need a lot of bodies. But when you are III and working with roughly four openings at this moment for 2015, you can't simply jump at any guy over 6'8 who is willing to wear the blue and gray. I would still humbly suggest that III should try to reel in the big fish before he wastes much of the bait on the more little ones. The latter, most at least, will likely still be around if he doesn't get the main prize (just as long as he doesn't wait too long which I think we can both agree on).
As for your argument that this NCAA tourney is full of examples of three star big men who are playing exceptionally well all I can say is....duh! When is this not the case? This is the result of guys being better than advertised coming out of high school. This is the result of players finding a system and a coach that is perfect for them. This is about guys who worked their tails off and eventually, after a few years, started to hit their stride. Also this is about four and five star players who end up being overrated or already bolted college a long time ago. The point is there are always going to be lower ranked players who end having better than expected college careers. That's the beauty of the game (or the frustrating part of it depending on your point of view). This hasn't changed nor will it change. But what you conveniently left out were all the three star bigs who weren't good enough to get their teams into the big dance or good enough to get off the bench for many minutes even if their teams made the NCAA tournament. And there is a greater number of those type of three star players than there are those who have found much better than expected success. And this is why when coaches and programs have an opportunity to recruit the five star and four star recruits, they go for those guys before they start handing out scholarships to the three-tier players. I'm sure you realize that.
With that said I'll leave it at that because this conversation has already gone off track in regards to this thread being meant for talk about Stone. Besides I know, etomic, you like to live in these recruiting threads and getting the last word on anything dealing with the Hoyas' pursuit of a center. The floor is yours.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Apr 1, 2014 7:17:02 GMT -5
I say hold-off on the 3 stars too. The goal are championships-- I still think Gtown is a perennial top 15 program no matter what some would like us to believe, flaws and all. I can deal with the letdowns of losing top centers, but I can't take any more signings that are doomed not to pan out. I would say this downside of having another Bolden or Hayes is higher than the upside of having a serviceable center in the case of ADR for example. I have confidence we'll get a top 100 big in '15. I think the only potential threat is getting a '14 big. People say top talent isnt scared about competing for PT but you just don't know that. A lot of coaches give priority to seniority and I'd be wary if there was another center a class ahead of me, especially if I'm a guy that more like Govan than Stone. Kids really just want to hear: we have nobody, you're our guy, we have minutes and they're yours.
Even though I don't think we're gonna get Stone I still want us recruiting these types of guys-- enough of them are giving us strong signs right now, I think one will pop. And if they don't, then fine, then go recruit your 3 star in '15. There will always be one available. The point is that, for the next two years, there's no way of ensuring a 3 star will be any better than Hayes now, so why the desperation to get one? Let the recruiting cycle play out and the new staff go to work....
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Post by HoyasAreHungry on Apr 1, 2014 7:53:13 GMT -5
Exactly MCI and Denny. Well said
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Post by eastcoastteddy58 on Apr 1, 2014 18:30:12 GMT -5
Nobody is saying shop low and hope for the best in regards to recruiting a center, but we have a void to fill in this position. A void due to the fact that Moses, Hopkins, and Smith will be gone after next year. Leaving only Hayes if we do not happen to land a solid recruit for the 5. Furthermore, what if Hayes hurts himself or becomes academically ineligible? I would hate to see the Hoya's having to resort to playing small ball for an entire year cause we didn't try to grab an available big that is damn near in our back yard. I am not by no means condoning the idea of just ting a scholarship in the wind, what I am saying is that ADR, IMO is a good fit and one of the few 5's left. Sure we could stand to recruit a four or five star center but JT3 doesn't like the idea of one and done 5 star recruits and neither do I. Like his father he values education over all. So with that being said, look for two four star recruits come 2015. If Rabb or any other five star recruit commits I will be too happy to have there services but would not be a bit surprised if they only stay for two years. The bottom line is simple, these kids need to compete day in and day out for there position. No one recruit should feel that playing time is guaranteed, remember Vernon Macklin. It's funny how @#$% happens, he didn't want to play behind Monroe and ends up on the same team anyway and then ends up overseas. Shopping for a serviceable 5 from the transfer list every year IMO, is a crap shoot of who's who and what can you do for me. We need to be heading in a different direction and start acquiring the services of these top centers like we've acquired the forwards and guards of the past.
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SFHoya99
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Post by SFHoya99 on Apr 1, 2014 21:19:20 GMT -5
At any one time, we should have 3-4 guys on the roster who can play center.
In 2015, we'll have two: Hayes and Derrickson. And Derrickson is a bit of a stretch. We could take two big guys and be happy with our roster. I don't see why taking a safe, solid guy in 2014 or 2015 is a problem.
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dense
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Post by dense on Apr 1, 2014 21:23:25 GMT -5
At any one time, we should have 3-4 guys on the roster who can play center. In 2015, we'll have two: Hayes and Derrickson. And Derrickson is a bit of a stretch. We could take two big guys and be happy with our roster. I don't see why taking a safe, solid guy in 2014 or 2015 is a problem. I'd actually like our offense to have a guy playing that 5 spot who they have to guard out there at the top. Wouldnt mind Derrickson at the 5 for stretches.
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Post by johnnysnowplow on Apr 1, 2014 21:23:28 GMT -5
At any one time, we should have 3-4 guys on the roster who can play center. In 2015, we'll have two: Hayes and Derrickson. And Derrickson is a bit of a stretch. We could take two big guys and be happy with our roster. I don't see why taking a safe, solid guy in 2014 or 2015 is a problem. I'll settle for one right now
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Post by Problem of Dog on Apr 1, 2014 21:59:26 GMT -5
At any one time, we should have 3-4 guys on the roster who can play center. In 2015, we'll have two: Hayes and Derrickson. And Derrickson is a bit of a stretch. We could take two big guys and be happy with our roster. I don't see why taking a safe, solid guy in 2014 or 2015 is a problem. I'd actually like our offense to have a guy playing that 5 spot who they have to guard out there at the top. Wouldnt mind Derrickson at the 5 for stretches. Never going to happen.
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MCIGuy
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Post by MCIGuy on Apr 1, 2014 22:02:52 GMT -5
I'd actually like our offense to have a guy playing that 5 spot who they have to guard out there at the top. Wouldnt mind Derrickson at the 5 for stretches. Never going to happen. Kinda agree. Not unless the team has to go very tiny out of desperation.
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MCIGuy
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Post by MCIGuy on Apr 1, 2014 22:09:46 GMT -5
At any one time, we should have 3-4 guys on the roster who can play center. In 2015, we'll have two: Hayes and Derrickson. And Derrickson is a bit of a stretch. We could take two big guys and be happy with our roster. I don't see why taking a safe, solid guy in 2014 or 2015 is a problem. What is safe and solid? Does that mean a guy who is a lock to be ready to play the position his first season when coming off the bench? If you can find that guy then go for it, but this notion to go out and grab a big man simply to fill a need makes no sense if that guy cannot leapfrog Moses (if he returns) or even Hopkins for God's sake. And there is no guy remaining in the 2014 class who is, in my opinion, a lock to do so. I know certain posters have fallen in love with a certain big whom they think is a must get, I simply don't share that view. Maybe I'm wrong. The team should have three guys who can legitimately play the five and perhaps a fourth who is definitely best at playing forward but can cheat at the five in a pinch. If that is the case then getting two bigs in the 2015 class would get the team to that point (unless there are more transfers).
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EtomicB
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Post by EtomicB on Apr 1, 2014 22:19:15 GMT -5
At any one time, we should have 3-4 guys on the roster who can play center. In 2015, we'll have two: Hayes and Derrickson. And Derrickson is a bit of a stretch. We could take two big guys and be happy with our roster. I don't see why taking a safe, solid guy in 2014 or 2015 is a problem. What is safe and solid? Does that mean a guy who is a lock to be ready to play the position his first season when coming off the bench? If you can find that guy then go for it, but this notion to go out and grab a big man simply to fill a need makes no sense if that guy cannot leapfrog Moses (if he returns) or even Hopkins for God's sake. And there is no guy remaining in the 2014 class who is, in my opinion, a lock to do so. I know certain posters have fallen in love with a certain big whom they think is a must get, I simply don't share that view. Maybe I'm wrong. The team should have three guys who can legitimately play the five and perhaps a fourth who is definitely best at playing forward but can cheat at the five in a pinch. If that is the case then getting two bigs in the 2015 class would get the team to that point (unless there are more transfers). What 2 bigs will the staff supposedly get in 2015 in your opinion? That's very important MCI, who are these recruits?
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MCIGuy
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Post by MCIGuy on Apr 1, 2014 22:22:56 GMT -5
Nobody is saying shop low and hope for the best in regards to recruiting a center, but we have a void to fill in this position. A void due to the fact that Moses, Hopkins, and Smith will be gone after next year. Leaving only Hayes if we do not happen to land a solid recruit for the 5. Furthermore, what if Hayes hurts himself or becomes academically ineligible? I would hate to see the Hoya's having to resort to playing small ball for an entire year cause we didn't try to grab an available big that is damn near in our back yard. I think you are getting confused. If Hayes is still around to his senior year he would not be alone in manning the five as long as the Hoyas grab big men in the 2015 high school class. Those recruits would play for Gtown in the '15-'16 season which in theory would be Hayes' senior year as a Hoya. Okay? So it wouldn't be as if the Hoyas would only have Hayes to rely on as a big man. There is little doubt the staff is going to bring in a couple of bigs in the 2015 class, the only question is whether those bigs will be top tier or more middle of the pack. Also pay attention to your point about Moses, Smith, and Hopkins. Those three dudes MAY be on the team NEXT SEASON along with Hayes. That would be four guys. So why use a schollie on some three star project in the 2014 (ADR)class who MIGHT end up pretty good. Eventually. That would make five players who could play the center spot which is a waste. Even if Moses doesn't return there still would be a crowd of possible candidates to play time at the five. You don't know that. Give me the quote in which III said that. The guy is smart and a realist. If he had gotten Anthony davis do you think he would take issie with the kid leaving after one year? Stop making stuff up. Laughable. JT Jr may have stressed academics but he was also a supreme capitalist and understood the notion of taking the money. Times have changed. Guys that are good enough aren't going to hang around four years to get their degree. Both of the John Thompsons know this. You don't recruit elite players without grasping that.
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MCIGuy
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Post by MCIGuy on Apr 1, 2014 22:34:44 GMT -5
What is safe and solid? Does that mean a guy who is a lock to be ready to play the position his first season when coming off the bench? If you can find that guy then go for it, but this notion to go out and grab a big man simply to fill a need makes no sense if that guy cannot leapfrog Moses (if he returns) or even Hopkins for God's sake. And there is no guy remaining in the 2014 class who is, in my opinion, a lock to do so. I know certain posters have fallen in love with a certain big whom they think is a must get, I simply don't share that view. Maybe I'm wrong. The team should have three guys who can legitimately play the five and perhaps a fourth who is definitely best at playing forward but can cheat at the five in a pinch. If that is the case then getting two bigs in the 2015 class would get the team to that point (unless there are more transfers). What 2 bigs will the staff supposedly get in 2015 in your opinion? That's very important MCI, who are these recruits? Good grief. I don't have a crystal ball. I can't say who the Hoyas will get. You might as well have asked me who is going to be on next year's cover of the Sports Illustrated Swimsuit issue. If I could predict the future I wouldn't be wasting my time sharing pleasantries with you guys, I'd be too busy betting on games or figuring out which future successfu stocks I'd be investing in. But clearly after the 2014-2015 season the Hoyas will have a need for big men. They will lose Josh. They will lose Mikael. if Moses is still around they will lose him too. So the staff will have to go after at least two big men to replace those guys. They will attempt to go after five star recruits and four star recruits but may settle on three star recruits instead. Regardless the Hoyas will have to bring in two big men and I'm pretty sure they will manage to find two guys somewhere, somehow. Of course none of what I just wrote is any different than the points I made before but because you made some odd request of me to name the actual players the Hoyas will bring in I decided to break it down for ya one more time. Won't probably do any good. Now...please...what other future event do you want me to fail to predict?
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dense
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Post by dense on Apr 1, 2014 22:42:10 GMT -5
Kinda agree. Not unless the team has to go very tiny out of desperation. Probably wont but I think people are too hung up on positions and not skill set. When we had Jeff playing the 5 it worked out well cause it opened the floor. Thats all I'm suggesting here. I would like to open up driving lanes. Pairing him with Copeland to provide weak side shot blocking I think can work
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EtomicB
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Post by EtomicB on Apr 2, 2014 7:10:21 GMT -5
What 2 bigs will the staff supposedly get in 2015 in your opinion? That's very important MCI, who are these recruits? Good grief. I don't have a crystal ball. I can't say who the Hoyas will get. You might as well have asked me who is going to be the next Miss America. If I could predict the future I wouldn't be wasting my time sharing pleasantries with you guys, I'd be too busy betting on games or figuring out which future successfu stocks I'd be investing in. But clearly after the 2014-2015 season the Hoyas will have a need for big men. They will lose Josh. They will lose Mikael. if Moses is still around they will lose him too. So the staff will have to go after at least two big men to replace those guys. They will attempt to go after five star recruits and four star recruits but may settle on three star recruits instead. Regardless the Hoyas will have to bring in two big men and I'm pretty sure they will manage to find two guys somewhere, somehow. Of course none of what I just wrote is any different than the points I made before but because you made some odd request of me to name the actual players the Hoyas will bring in I decided to break it down for ya one more time. Won't probably do any good. Now...please...what other future event do you want me to fail to predict? I Just wanted to see you post that you have no clue who the staff will get in 2015, guess what neither do I and most importantly neither does the staff.. This is why I think it's shortsighted of them to have given up on recruiting a big for this class so soon.. I'd let Moses go & only play Smith, Hayes & the new kid at the 5.. Hopkins & Copeland at the 4.. White & Peak at the 3.. DSR, Jabril & Tre in the backcourt.. Cameron can fit in where/when needed.. ADR may only be a 3 star kid but he fits JT3's system.. He's an obvious space eater in the middle, he has a competent skill set offensively out to 15-18 ft, he rebounds his area well and he hits FT's.. He'll need to work on his defense but getting in even better shape will help with that.. I think he could thrive in this system but at the end of it all the staff thinks otherwise.. I'm not sold on their recruiting strategy but I do hope it works out.. It must be noted also that "fit" plays a big role in most 4 star kids as well, unfortunately we witnessed that this year.. Discounting kids based on their star rating is not the best method to go by..
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Post by HoyasAreHungry on Apr 2, 2014 7:41:14 GMT -5
I think it's officially time to move this convo elsewhere....
The bottom line is you're not running things and if the staff doesn't think that ADR, which is who this whole conversation is about let's be honest, can contribute right away or the way they hope in general, then it is what it is. I'm pretty sure they're well aware of their roster and would make a move if they saw fit. I will repeat MCIs point. We don't need someone just to fill a roster spot. Period. End of story. Your point about bringing In less highly touted players is fine but you act like these guys are just out there and ready to be Hoyas. Doesn't work like that.
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Bigs"R"Us
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Post by Bigs"R"Us on Apr 2, 2014 9:36:14 GMT -5
I noticed in the box score for the championship game in '84 that Ewing was only the 5th leading scorer. I think we are currently building a team with a number of offensive weapons and could be quite successful with a center that can defend and rebound. Some modicum of offensive skill would be a big plus.
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MCIGuy
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Post by MCIGuy on Apr 3, 2014 12:11:40 GMT -5
I noticed in the box score for the championship game in '84 that Ewing was only the 5th leading scorer. I think we are currently building a team with a number of offensive weapons and could be quite successful with a center that can defend and rebound. Some modicum of offensive skill would be a big plus. Unlike Zo, Sweetney, AI and Reggie Williams Ewing never came close to averaging 20 points per game in a season (Sleepy never averaged 20 either but got near that with 19 his junior year). And it wasn't because he lacked offensive skills. From what I have learned over the years Ewing had the ability, but his teams were so talented he didn't need to dominate in terms of scoring. So the Hoyas could win games, even championship games, in which he didn't put up huge numbers. Meanwhile the Hoyas that Sweetney was playing with in his last two seasons weren't doing jack if Sweetney wasn't at least the second highest scorer for the team in any meaningful contest. Btw if the new players live up to our expectations their ability to score will probably prevent DSR from averaging 20 points per game as well his senior season if not both of his fianl two seasons.
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