jgalt
Diamond Hoya (over 2500 posts)
Posts: 4,380
|
Post by jgalt on Aug 28, 2012 23:45:07 GMT -5
Wow, Ive gone past Uline a number of times on the train and I knew nothing about it. It was at one point pretty beautiful in side it seems. And from pictures I saw, the concrete for the seats was still in there for the most part. Yeah that would be pretty sweet to play in a historic arena like that, but you are probably right DFW, that the city will want Verizon used as much as possible, and as long as Leonsis owns its and is on the board of directors thats where Gtown will play most games.
|
|
rosslynhoya
Diamond Hoya (over 2500 posts)
Posts: 2,595
|
Post by rosslynhoya on Aug 29, 2012 8:11:38 GMT -5
What's the city's interest in maximizing the use of Verizon?
|
|
DFW HOYA
Platinum Hoya (over 5000 posts)
Posts: 5,737
|
Post by DFW HOYA on Aug 29, 2012 9:52:32 GMT -5
I've never heard any talk of moving any undergrads off of Main Campus, and I can't see it happening. Not in 2012. But what about 2032? Pie in the sky scenario: The Anacostia/eastern Potomac waterfront is the go-to place for DC growth. Students flock to the privately constructed condominiums on the "New Campus" and commute to the various satellite campuses or the "Old Campus" via the Green Line, connecting to Metro's new Blue Line light rail along M street, or through a new Metro-run Potomac ferry service (the "Water Line") with a stop alongside Key Bridge. Residents complain that with the loss of student commerce and traffic problems with a streetcar line on M Street, they want more students living back in Georgetown... More realistic scenario: With online and hybrid courses requiring less on-campus attendance (think: executive ed programs where students spend the first and last two weeks on campus), there are fewer needs for full time housing. Students come and go as their course schedules dictate and are learning remotely for much of the year, with academic terms which are fluid and not tied to a strict fall or spring schedule. The Main Campus is refocused to the College and hosting special events, while the Southeast Campus is focused on Nursing, Medical, Graduate, and Public Policy, with residential and retail being built for that community. About this time, a third campus is being implemented along the K Street corridor for SFS and Business. As to that future Metro map... greatergreaterwashington.org/image.cgi?src=200802/wmatafantasylarge.png&ref=627
|
|
thebin
Diamond Hoya (over 2500 posts)
Posts: 3,848
|
Post by thebin on Aug 29, 2012 10:42:28 GMT -5
I have no hope that a IAA stadium off the main campus would be an improvement. Just no way even if we become a IAA/Lax power that we draw 10K off campus. Would rather draw 4-5K on campus.
IA football off campus is a tough sell. See Pitt. IAA is a non-starter. And for my money a satellite campus is off campus as long as it doesn't house the majority of undergrads.
|
|
RusskyHoya
Diamond Hoya (over 2500 posts)
In Soviet Russia, Hoya Blue Bleeds You!
Posts: 4,597
|
Post by RusskyHoya on Aug 31, 2012 15:07:59 GMT -5
What's the city's interest in maximizing the use of Verizon? The Verizon Center is kept off of the property tax rolls through an agreement between the city and Abe Polin when he agreed to build it using his own money. He also got $50 million in city money fronted to him for a renovation a couple of years ago. The city's justification for this is that the Phone Booth brings foot traffic, increases surrounding property values (captured through taxes), and brings in revenues through restaurant taxes, ticket taxes, etc. I've never heard any talk of moving any undergrads off of Main Campus, and I can't see it happening. Not in 2012. But what about 2032? Pie in the sky scenario: The Anacostia/eastern Potomac waterfront is the go-to place for DC growth. Students flock to the privately constructed condominiums on the "New Campus" and commute to the various satellite campuses or the "Old Campus" via the Green Line, connecting to Metro's new Blue Line light rail along M street, or through a new Metro-run Potomac ferry service (the "Water Line") with a stop alongside Key Bridge. Residents complain that with the loss of student commerce and traffic problems with a streetcar line on M Street, they want more students living back in Georgetown... More realistic scenario: With online and hybrid courses requiring less on-campus attendance (think: executive ed programs where students spend the first and last two weeks on campus), there are fewer needs for full time housing. Students come and go as their course schedules dictate and are learning remotely for much of the year, with academic terms which are fluid and not tied to a strict fall or spring schedule. The Main Campus is refocused to the College and hosting special events, while the Southeast Campus is focused on Nursing, Medical, Graduate, and Public Policy, with residential and retail being built for that community. About this time, a third campus is being implemented along the K Street corridor for SFS and Business. As to that future Metro map... greatergreaterwashington.org/image.cgi?src=200802/wmatafantasylarge.png&ref=627I'm absolutely not as bullish as many seem to be on the concept of online/hybrid courses. For executive education, yes, because those are explicitly cash cows and there's little to no expectation of real learning. But the value added of the Georgetown brand - and this applies to other top tier schools as well - is that it is a sifting mechanism. Those wealthy/cultured/talented/skilled enough to jump over all the barriers to entry and completion are rewarded with the brand. Socialization is a big aspect of that as well - if you can socialize and acculturate with the elite, you can join them. Elite universities are loathe to give up this prestigious and highly desired function for which they can charge exorbitant tuition. Opening their programs up to widescale online and distance learning would lower alot of those barriers and diminish that brand value. The loftier and less base statement of this can be found here, where a UVA professor argues that universities are supposed to be inefficient. That model may be increasingly unsustainable for a lot of public and lower-tier institutions, but the elites have the endowments and brand name to adapt and weather it. I'm pretty sympathetic to the UVA professor's arguments, and to the idea that the undergraduate experience of Georgetown has to be remain rooted on the Hilltop, so maybe I'm overstating their sway. But we are talking about centuries' old institutions - if they can resist change, they will, and they will privilege self-preservation over all else. As for the GGW fantasy metro map: I'm a huge transit geek, so that stuff is like intellectual candy to me, but I also try to be a realistic. Short of some astounding new developments in the construction field, that map is a 2050-era or later map. Underground tunneling - and you would have to use tunneling for a lot of that (just try to imagine proposing cut-and-cover construction through Georgetown) - is grievously expensive. Building underground in DC isn't quite as bad as in Manhattan, but the costs of the ongoing Second Ave. Subway project (two miles of subway for nearly $4.5 billion), the 7-train extension, and East Side Access drive home just how expensive an undertaking this would be. No one would be happier than me if we had a government more willing to invest in things like that over, say, the F-35 or the the $2.3 billion debacle known as DCGS-A[/u], but I'm seeing that as a really uphill fight. Particularly given that public transportation - and perhaps even urbanism and the concept of city living in general - has now become a partisan issue.
|
|
jgalt
Diamond Hoya (over 2500 posts)
Posts: 4,380
|
Post by jgalt on Aug 31, 2012 18:47:40 GMT -5
I'm absolutely not as bullish as many seem to be on the concept of online/hybrid courses. For executive education, yes, because those are explicitly cash cows and there's little to no expectation of real learning. But the value added of the Georgetown brand - and this applies to other top tier schools as well - is that it is a sifting mechanism. Those wealthy/cultured/talented/skilled enough to jump over all the barriers to entry and completion are rewarded with the brand. Socialization is a big aspect of that as well - if you can socialize and acculturate with the elite, you can join them. Elite universities are loathe to give up this prestigious and highly desired function for which they can charge exorbitant tuition. Opening their programs up to widescale online and distance learning would lower alot of those barriers and diminish that brand value. Absolutely. And if you look at the top of the top universities (harvard, MIT, princeton) they all have put tons of courses online. But not for degrees, just for learning. The knowledge isnt what they sell, its the degree and wont give that away online. Offering more than exec level degrees online, dilutes the Georgetown brand. I would hate to see them do that.
|
|
RusskyHoya
Diamond Hoya (over 2500 posts)
In Soviet Russia, Hoya Blue Bleeds You!
Posts: 4,597
|
Post by RusskyHoya on Sept 2, 2012 17:28:39 GMT -5
Absolutely. And if you look at the top of the top universities (harvard, MIT, princeton) they all have put tons of courses online. But not for degrees, just for learning. The knowledge isnt what they sell, its the degree and wont give that away online. Offering more than exec level degrees online, dilutes the Georgetown brand. I would hate to see them do that. Pretty much my thinking as well. The executive degrees bother me too, but I recognize that that train left the station a long time ago. That is the SFS Dean's big priority at the moment, now that the two new traditional master's degrees are operational. An online Map of the Modern World would be a great contribution to humanity. I wonder if anyone ever recorded Pirtle's class? (Not that he would have allowed such a thing). By the way, in case anyone is curious as to what the new Leavey dorm is supposed to look like, preliminary drawings can be found here.
|
|
DFW HOYA
Platinum Hoya (over 5000 posts)
Posts: 5,737
|
Post by DFW HOYA on Sept 2, 2012 21:41:04 GMT -5
I'm absolutely not as bullish as many seem to be on the concept of online/hybrid courses. For executive education, yes, because those are explicitly cash cows and there's little to no expectation of real learning. But the value added of the Georgetown brand - and this applies to other top tier schools as well - is that it is a sifting mechanism. Those wealthy/cultured/talented/skilled enough to jump over all the barriers to entry and completion are rewarded with the brand. Socialization is a big aspect of that as well - if you can socialize and acculturate with the elite, you can join them. Elite universities are loathe to give up this prestigious and highly desired function for which they can charge exorbitant tuition. Opening their programs up to widescale online and distance learning would lower alot of those barriers and diminish that brand value. The concept of residential attendance at colleges has changed markedly over the years, who's to say it won't continue to change? In the 1800's, a college "student" at Georgetown was between 10 and 14 years old. Before 1930, the entire extent of residential life at Georgetown was on the upper floors of three buildings in the Quadrangle. As late as the 1960's, Georgetown had an extensive "day-hop" (commuter) population and it was expected that students would live up to three years off campus. Things change. Online education is disruptive because it takes one of the central elements to education---the scarce resources of unique faculty--and opens it to an audience that doesn't need to attend to get the value-add of the course offering. Yes, we in 2012 see the need for socialization and on-campus learning, but in 20 years, could a student in Hyperabad or Rio de Janiero or Warsaw want to take part in a "Georgetown education" without the need to sit in the ICC, without the need to live in Village E or somesuch building of the future for nine months a year? More than likely, yes. I don't see Georgetown as 100% online because that's not what Georgetown figures to be about. But the idea that an 18 year old need to spend four years in Washington DC to get a world-class education is going away like the typewriter--the QWERTY keyboard is still around, just on another platform. Your use of the word brand is crucial. There are just over 17,000 colleges and universities worldwide, most in the US and fewer in places like China and India. What "brands" will reach to the emerging generation of Africa and Asia? Will the reach of Georgetown in 2032 be limited to 1,500 new students a year, (90% from the US), or something much more expansive, something more extensible?
As to the GGW map, a new Blue Line to Georgetown need not be a multi-billion project if an above ground light rail is employed. Metro could use above-ground lines as a feeder system into heavy rail. Yes, the devil's in the details, but light rail runs about $50-75 million per mile compared with as much as $250 million per mile for heavy rail (and that's before the lawyers get involved).
|
|
RusskyHoya
Diamond Hoya (over 2500 posts)
In Soviet Russia, Hoya Blue Bleeds You!
Posts: 4,597
|
Post by RusskyHoya on Sept 4, 2012 23:23:53 GMT -5
The concept of residential attendance at colleges has changed markedly over the years, who's to say it won't continue to change? In the 1800's, a college "student" at Georgetown was between 10 and 14 years old. Before 1930, the entire extent of residential life at Georgetown was on the upper floors of three buildings in the Quadrangle. As late as the 1960's, Georgetown had an extensive "day-hop" (commuter) population and it was expected that students would live up to three years off campus. Things change. Online education is disruptive because it takes one of the central elements to education---the scarce resources of unique faculty--and opens it to an audience that doesn't need to attend to get the value-add of the course offering. Yes, we in 2012 see the need for socialization and on-campus learning, but in 20 years, could a student in Hyperabad or Rio de Janiero or Warsaw want to take part in a "Georgetown education" without the need to sit in the ICC, without the need to live in Village E or somesuch building of the future for nine months a year? More than likely, yes. I don't see Georgetown as 100% online because that's not what Georgetown figures to be about. But the idea that an 18 year old need to spend four years in Washington DC to get a world-class education is going away like the typewriter--the QWERTY keyboard is still around, just on another platform. Your use of the word brand is crucial. There are just over 17,000 colleges and universities worldwide, most in the US and fewer in places like China and India. What "brands" will reach to the emerging generation of Africa and Asia? Will the reach of Georgetown in 2032 be limited to 1,500 new students a year, (90% from the US), or something much more expansive, something more extensible?
As to the GGW map, a new Blue Line to Georgetown need not be a multi-billion project if an above ground light rail is employed. Metro could use above-ground lines as a feeder system into heavy rail. Yes, the devil's in the details, but light rail runs about $50-75 million per mile compared with as much as $250 million per mile for heavy rail (and that's before the lawyers get involved). I'm sure the concept of a residential college will continue to change. But I see the pace of such change as being quite slow, especially when compared with the pace of technological change. You have to remember that the number one attribute of the brand is not the scare resources of the unique faculty, no matter how outstanding or unique they are. Ultimately, they can't teach you anything that's not already available through a Will Hunting-style education. The brand is built on expense (at least in terms of sticker price) and exclusivity. We don't have a comparative advantage when it comes to education new generations in Asia and Africa. We do have a comparative advantage in maintaining a prestige brand. That ain't going away. Light rail/streetcar construction is still pretty disruptive (just ask the folks on H Street), to the point where I could imagine the business community uniting against it unless they were offered extremely generous benefits. The businesses on 18th Street in Adams Morgan got interest-free loans to cover operating losses during the recently-completed streetscape project there. Something like that in Georgetown would run in the many millions just by itself. And that's before you get to whatever measures would be necessary to buy off/appease the Georgetown neighbors... If the price of gas goes above, say, $8, people may start changing their tune, but as it stands now, I just don't see this happening. If Tommy Wells somehow gets elected mayor, we might get a real study of it. That alone is a huge if.
|
|
sead43
Silver Hoya (over 500 posts)
Posts: 796
|
Post by sead43 on Mar 20, 2013 9:44:05 GMT -5
As Russky pointed out in the IAC thread on the main board, seems the plan to turn the Leavey hotel into a dorm has been shelved... georgetown.patch.com/articles/gu-looks-to-expand-student-housing-on-main-campusSo is the Leavey hotel definitley remaining a hotel? The article seems to imply that... The article says alternatives for more dorm space include the "'grassy knoll' opposite the Rice [sic] Science building labeled for now as the Northeast Triangle, [...] the re-use or demolition and replacement of the existing Kober-Cogan, [...] Harbin Terrace, [...] Henle Addition, Southwest Quad Infill and the McDonough Lot."
|
|
RusskyHoya
Diamond Hoya (over 2500 posts)
In Soviet Russia, Hoya Blue Bleeds You!
Posts: 4,597
|
Post by RusskyHoya on Mar 21, 2013 23:16:01 GMT -5
As Russky pointed out in the IAC thread on the main board, seems the plan to turn the Leavey hotel into a dorm has been shelved... georgetown.patch.com/articles/gu-looks-to-expand-student-housing-on-main-campusSo is the Leavey hotel definitley remaining a hotel? The article seems to imply that... The article says alternatives for more dorm space include the "'grassy knoll' opposite the Rice [sic] Science building labeled for now as the Northeast Triangle, [...] the re-use or demolition and replacement of the existing Kober-Cogan, [...] Harbin Terrace, [...] Henle Addition, Southwest Quad Infill and the McDonough Lot." Yes, the Leavey hotel is staying. From the Planning 102 session - read about it here: blog.georgetownvoice.com/2013/03/20/planning-102-session-reveals-new-campus-construction-plans/ - it certainly sounded like the Northeast Triangle option was more or less settled upon.
|
|
|
Post by LizziebethHoya on Mar 22, 2013 10:03:20 GMT -5
|
|
PhillyHoya
Golden Hoya (over 1000 posts)
Posts: 2,016
|
Post by PhillyHoya on Mar 22, 2013 10:37:27 GMT -5
I completely agree. Is the hotel really netting that much? Obviously renovations for security would have to be made in Leavey but it's the best option and it doesn't require an entire new building.
We don't have a lot of land left. This is a tiny space on a very crowded walkway. They can do better.
|
|
|
Post by hilltopper2000 on Mar 22, 2013 11:03:52 GMT -5
I'm not opposed to developing that space, which has always been underutilized and dumpy. Who wants to have to look at Reiss anyway? But I am opposed to this march toward modern design on Georgetown's campus. It started with Regents Hall (which is hideous IMO) and now appears to continue with this. Glass and steel does not scream Georgetown; it is not the campus's identity. Over the last 15 years Georgetown has constructed a series of buildings with strong references to classic American collegiate architecture: the SWQ, Davis Center, and Hariri. (The IAC also fits this model.) Granted this space is awkward, which is mabye why they are learning to modern design, but I really don't like this trend.
|
|
thebin
Diamond Hoya (over 2500 posts)
Posts: 3,848
|
Post by thebin on Mar 22, 2013 11:16:48 GMT -5
While that space seems too small for a dorm, I don't have any problem with building on it. Lets face it the only real usable and sacred piece of grass we're going to have is Healey lawn. And that's ok. The school is in the city. Its not as if that tiny patch of grass gets any real use. Let's hope its a good looking building though. Then can we PLEASE knock Reiss down? Generally not a fan of modern design myself but I do think it is the slender size of the footprint driving that choice.
I also kind of like that there is a hotel on campus.
How fantastic would it be if we could buy Visitation a nice campus somewhere else and take that land?
I have to disagree about Regents Hall. I think it is stunning. Old "collegiate" style architecture looks great when it is real. Which is to say when it actually IS old. When you manufacture something to look as though it is from another century it loses something. See the glut of really tired "retro" stadiums throughout MLB.
|
|
RusskyHoya
Diamond Hoya (over 2500 posts)
In Soviet Russia, Hoya Blue Bleeds You!
Posts: 4,597
|
Post by RusskyHoya on Mar 22, 2013 11:58:58 GMT -5
White-Gravenor was built during the 1930s but is designed to look like it is from the 1630s, so I think that collegiate-style can be done well regardless of period. But I'm fine with Regents, for the most part.
The proposed Northeast Triangle dorm is in an extremely conceptual stage - there aren't even full renderings. I'm withholding judgment until we see something more substantive. Having said that, it is clear that they want glass facades on the ground level in order to make the space more engaging, so that you're walking past activity and people, rather than blank and bare walls. For something that's designed to be 'monumental,' I don't think that's appropriate, but for a residence hall along a high-traffic walkway, across from the unexciting 50's fail whale that is Reiss, I think it is appropriate.
The key will be landscaping. Jim Gilroy is right - if this becomes a canyon and feels like you're walking through the Death Star trench, it'll be a disaster. But if you leave enough open space vertically and do some nice framing with vegetation, benches, etc., it could be a very nice path. I went to the second session, but apparently at the first one, there was a great deal of feedback about the need for more green space, so I'm hoping this will spur them to put a lot of effort into it, including in this space.
hilltopper is right, the Triangle as it stands now is badly underused.
My personal preference would be to use either Kober-Cogan or the space immediately north of it, part of what is now Lot A (or both). I understand MedStar owns them now and it would be a hassle, but I don't buy the argument that it is too out of the way. That was one of the reasons given for nixing the hotel plan, by the way - it would be too far away and not on one of the main campus axes of movement. I buy it for the hotel, but not for a Kober-Cogan site - Darnall and Henle are right there! Plus, Lot A is atrociously ugly, so anything that can be done to improve that part of campus is worthwhile, even if it means haggling with MedStar.
|
|
DFW HOYA
Platinum Hoya (over 5000 posts)
Posts: 5,737
|
Post by DFW HOYA on Mar 22, 2013 12:43:45 GMT -5
Some thoughts:
1. The campus plan still mandates those beds by 2014-15. Short of converting dorms to triples, there's little or no chance these various plans get through zoning, OGB, OFA, etc. in time, whereas Leavey was/is greenlighted. So...
2. I think the planners are envisioning a 2020's future for Leavey, with the dorms as an interim move. If the New South Student Center (the addition of "Healey Center" into the campus lexicon will be frought with confusion) is envisioned as the "student union" this would suggest moving the student offices out of the east wing of Leavey at some point and revisiting the concept of academic space in Leavey, whether on the main level or converting one of the garages to classrooms. (When/if hospital assets are relocated elsewhere, the pressure to use Leavey as a parking garage decreases significantly.) My guess is that the planners know it's a big space but it's neither student-focused not much of a "center" since the SW Quad took over things. However, the opportunity for a revenue component with the conference center tie-in with the business and science center cannot be overlooked.
3. The Harbin discussion is interesting--the foundation could certainly hold another building, although no one wants to see a second Harbin on the skyline. Georgetown hasn't razed a permanent structure on the campus for over 100 years, but could the Harbin space be a candidate once a comparable dorm takes root nearby?
4. Still no discussions, publicly anyway, about what to do with Ryan, Gervase, and Mulledy.
5. It would be an interesting academic exercise to discuss repurposing entire buildings as a means of changing traffic and use flow. What if White-Gravenor became a dorm like Copley? What if Lauinger became the academic and classroom headquarters of the College, and the library moved to a repurposed Leavey, or even Reiss? Could the Car Barn become the eventual replacement of Yates in a public-private partnership? Not suggesting all of these are needed nor imminent, but it's worth some discussion while there is time.
|
|
thebin
Diamond Hoya (over 2500 posts)
Posts: 3,848
|
Post by thebin on Mar 22, 2013 12:52:48 GMT -5
I didn't think it possible for our library to be in an uglier building. Until DFW proposed moving it to Reiss. Please please please just knock Reiss down and rebuild.
|
|
DFW HOYA
Platinum Hoya (over 5000 posts)
Posts: 5,737
|
Post by DFW HOYA on Mar 22, 2013 13:22:33 GMT -5
I didn't think it possible for our library to be in an uglier building. Until DFW proposed moving it to Reiss. Please please please just knock Reiss down and rebuild. I didn't suggest moving it per se, only that it's a topic of discussion. Lauinger is only slightly larger than Reiss (175,000 to 155,000 sf) but if the hub of students is along the SW Quad, Business/Science, and MSF row, would a big, multipurpose library in that corridor work? Perhaps. The days when buses and passing delivery trucks made Healy Circle a pedestrian lawsuit waiting to happen are long past, and the front of the campus is not what it was years or decades earlier. But just as Healy Basement has been variously used over the years as everything from a seismographic center to a student union to a rifle range, buildings can and do get repurposed. Here's a document found on Google outlining ideas where to put a new library in 1945, 25 years before they did: www.library.georgetown.edu/sites/default/files/images/in_the_aggregate__map_1945.jpgMaybe Reiss could be externally retrofitted to look like something that would be better suited to the 21st Century. Maybe, if the money was there, it could be razed and rebuilt altogether, but its current use (pre-med classrooms, an obsolete science library, and various science faculty offices) is not a plan for the future. Would the College need 175,000 sf in Lauinger? Why not move the College and its faculty within the Quadrangle instead? Where are the classrooms going to be when online and MOOC classes begin to develop, and will GU still need as many rooms for this? Again, it's only a point of discussion. Athletically speaking, all hands are on the IAC deck but McDonough and Yates are not getting any younger, no matter what they are re-purposed into. These too are worthy of some long term discussions.
|
|
|
Post by LizziebethHoya on Mar 22, 2013 14:11:49 GMT -5
I agree with all thats being discussed here. Ultimately, the University needs to look at repurposing its existing space instead of building something on whatever tiny space it has left. The whole "beds on campus" promise has left us in a bind and the university is looking to short-sighted solutions that will fulfill their immediate need instead of taking a longer-term view of things.
Green space is good. The reason this current "triangle" of grass is unused? Because it is not landscaped well and there is a fence in front of it so it looks off-limits. Take the gate away, put in some nice landscaping, and add some adirondack chairs/picnic tables, etc - presto, the area will be used.
|
|