kchoya
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Post by kchoya on Jun 7, 2012 13:54:38 GMT -5
I think the majority of neighbors would just as soon have one less battle in their lives to fight. I really dobut this, but we'll see. The day the Georgetown community stops fighting the University at every turn will be the same day the DC Council ceases to be a wretched hive of scum and villainy.
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RusskyHoya
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Post by RusskyHoya on Jun 7, 2012 15:26:00 GMT -5
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hoyatables
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Post by hoyatables on Jun 7, 2012 16:00:33 GMT -5
Very interested to see the reactions.
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kchoya
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Post by kchoya on Jun 7, 2012 16:26:02 GMT -5
So this only lasts until 2017, and then a 20-year plan will have to be adopted? A noisy house will be a house that "noise can be heard beyond the property line." That's overly restrictive. Good - "Permit students of legal age living in apartments, townhouses, and other living spaces on campus to host parties in impromptu ways, eliminating the need to register parties well in advance." Possibly good - "By Fall 2014, the University shall complete the New South Student Center, which will include an on-campus student pub and provide an appealing on-campus venue for late-night socializing." - "Weekday athletic events at Harbin Field expected to draw over 100 visitors shall begin before 4 PM or after 7 PM." Bad - all undergrads "shall be prohibited from bringing cars to campus or parking their cars on the street in Georgetown, Burleith, and Foxhall." Enclosure of Kehoe Field? What is that? Horrible - "Any development on the Main Campus shall be consistent with the University’s goal of developing an integrated living and learning campus and the Georgetown Community Partnership community’s goal of as rapid a transition as possible toward a more residential undergraduate on-campus environment." Worst of all: "New emphasis on a living and learning campus that centralizes student social life on campus." Why the F would you attend college in Georgetown/Washington DC and limit your social life to campus?
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Post by HoyaSinceBirth on Jun 7, 2012 16:39:31 GMT -5
Bad - all undergrads "shall be prohibited from bringing cars to campus or parking their cars on the street in Georgetown, Burleith, and Foxhall."
Yeah this is truly terrible. I have to park in Georgetown for my part time job and for various trips to campus and I've never not been able to find parking. Sure sometimes its more difficult than others, but students are not the main issue. Very few undergrads bring their cars to campus in the first place.
Presumably this does allow students who live off campus to park in their driveways. If you walk around the streets of Burelith now you'll still see it full of cars even though students are on winter break.
The major sources of cars from Students are Graduate students who you're trying to force to live further away from campus meaning more of them will need to drive since you restrict the GUTS buses so much to make them impractical.
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FLHoya
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Post by FLHoya on Jun 7, 2012 18:20:55 GMT -5
- "Weekday athletic events at Harbin Field expected to draw over 100 visitors shall begin before 4 PM or after 7 PM." The ANC is clearly trolling DFW.
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RusskyHoya
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Post by RusskyHoya on Jun 7, 2012 20:58:44 GMT -5
Bad - all undergrads "shall be prohibited from bringing cars to campus or parking their cars on the street in Georgetown, Burleith, and Foxhall." Yeah this is truly terrible. I have to park in Georgetown for my part time job and for various trips to campus and I've never not been able to find parking. It's also illegal. If you live in the neighborhood, you have the right to park there. Universities have pretty wide leeway in terms of what they can require of their students, to say the least. Lest we forget, Bob Jones University had a policy forbidding their students from interracial dating until the year 2000. It's mostly a non-issue, though, since very few undergrads park their cars on 20007 city streets as it is, given that they cannot get reciprocity permits as it is. Pretty much no one is going through the hassle of switching their title and registration over to DC in order to get a RPP now, so conditions won't change any.
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hoyatables
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Post by hoyatables on Jun 7, 2012 22:41:59 GMT -5
The University got every bit of enrollment growth it previously sought. That's a pretty big deal.
And developers regularly sign away the right of their future residents to have RPP stickers as a concession to the neighborhood.
Students get quite a bit out of this -- relaxed on-campus policies, pressure to make sure the New South Student Center happens, and so on.
In any event, this isn't about winning and losing. It's about hitting a reset and changing the dynamic. Not about us versus them. You'll see.
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RusskyHoya
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Post by RusskyHoya on Jun 8, 2012 9:47:55 GMT -5
The University got every bit of enrollment growth it previously sought. That's a pretty big deal. And developers regularly sign away the right of their future residents to have RPP stickers as a concession to the neighborhood. Students get quite a bit out of this -- relaxed on-campus policies, pressure to make sure the New South Student Center happens, and so on. In any event, this isn't about winning and losing. It's about hitting a reset and changing the dynamic. Not about us versus them. You'll see. I'm going to have to push back a bit here, tables. A Residential Parking Permit is tied to a residence. Most residences are eligible for a RPP in whatever zone the residence is located. Some are not, based on agreements with the city. GU students living in dorms, for instance, are not eligible to get RPP. That's fine. What RPPs are NOT tied to is individuals. This provision suggests a situation in which someone living in a house in 20007 can get a RPP, but only if they are not a GU undergraduate. The city could not mandate this, of course - that would be discrimination under the DCHRA. So instead the University is being used as a cat's paw to make it a student conduct provision. But as written, this item would actually go further, because it reads as a prohibition on bringing and/or parking any cars on or around campus. So whereas any other person from anywhere else can park for at least 2 hours on most of GU's streets, an undergrad could not. They could conceivably even be driving a car with a Zone 2 RPP and it still wouldn't matter, because the restriction is now on the person. Of course, this is all rendered moot by that "reasonable, very limited exceptions" part, which is (intentionally, I'm sure) vague and makes the whole thing unenforceable. A restriction on RPPs would not change conditions in any tangible way, because the number of traditional undergraduates who go through the hassle of changing their tag, title, registration, and license over to DC is effectively zero. So, the only thing this provision really does is offer a raised middle finger to undergrads. It's things like this, and the continued use of language that portrays students as an inherently problematic and suspect class, that prevents me from believing that we're entering the dawn of a new era of cooperation and milkshakes for all. The requirement of a study of the impact of graduate student group homes is particularly insulting. Both matriculation status and familial status are protected classes under DCHRA, so it is illegal to discriminate against either grad students or group homes period. But yes, by all means, let's study this scourge and then, when the report inevitably concludes that these homes are ruining the neighborhood, we'll figure out another backdoor way of cleansing the neighborhood of their presence! Actually, I will amend my previous statement: this does more than just flip the bird to students, it also sets a precedent that universities can be coerced into restricting their students from enjoying equal access to public facilities. Tom Davis and ANC3D tried to do this with American U., demanding that AU prevent their students from using the Horace Mann playground. We were all rightfully shocked and appalled by that bit of lunacy, but these restrictions here are in that same vein, which I'm guessing is why they're basically neutered by a vague exceptions clause. It is a worrying trend, though.
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kchoya
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Post by kchoya on Jun 8, 2012 9:59:22 GMT -5
It's about hitting a reset and changing the dynamic. Not about us versus them. You'll see. Do you really believe that's going to happen? I can see how those intimately involved in the process may lose perspective and think things are truly going to change. But really doubt it. Westy Byrd becomes Ron Lewis becomes Jennifer Altemus becomes someone else in five years.
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hoyatables
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Post by hoyatables on Jun 8, 2012 10:41:03 GMT -5
It's about hitting a reset and changing the dynamic. Not about us versus them. You'll see. Do you really believe that's going to happen? I can see how those intimately involved in the process may lose perspective and think things are truly going to change. But really doubt it. Westy Byrd becomes Ron Lewis becomes Jennifer Altemus becomes someone else in five years. I really think it might. Not saying it will be puppies and milkshakes, but I do think it will be far better. These things do change the dynamic. Happened with GW -- still squabbles over the details, but by and large there's a more constructive dialogue that really does benefit both sides.
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kchoya
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Post by kchoya on Jun 8, 2012 11:02:42 GMT -5
Do you really believe that's going to happen? I can see how those intimately involved in the process may lose perspective and think things are truly going to change. But really doubt it. Westy Byrd becomes Ron Lewis becomes Jennifer Altemus becomes someone else in five years. I really think it might. Not saying it will be puppies and milkshakes, but I do think it will be far better. These things do change the dynamic. Happened with GW -- still squabbles over the details, but by and large there's a more constructive dialogue that really does benefit both sides. Any insight as to why the plan only goes through 2017? I would think more time might be beneficial as a cooling off period.
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TC
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Post by TC on Jun 8, 2012 11:22:41 GMT -5
Students get quite a bit out of this -- relaxed on-campus policies, pressure to make sure the New South Student Center happens, and so on. I'm with kchoya here because I see no way in which the University successfully implements this part. The residents want an on-campus New South Hamsterdam, the University probably will end up creating something slightly more bland than Chilli's.
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jgalt
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Post by jgalt on Jun 8, 2012 17:07:44 GMT -5
Students get quite a bit out of this -- relaxed on-campus policies, pressure to make sure the New South Student Center happens, and so on. I'm with kchoya here because I see no way in which the University successfully implements this part. The residents want an on-campus New South Hamsterdam, the University probably will end up creating something slightly more bland than Chilli's. But students do go to Epicurean (or at least did the one year I was there when it was open) to drink (though many then left to go to bars later and it probably had to do with lax ID policies) so there is some hope. For the right price and easy access I can see many students going to an on campus bar. Will it stop them from going out into the neighborhood also? Nah.
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Post by HoyaSinceBirth on Jun 9, 2012 9:47:39 GMT -5
Here's the thing. A lot of our concessions were vague or unenforceable.
They cannot really stop students from parking in Georgetown for example. How would they prove that the car belongs to a student? For example I park around campus all the time. I have an out of state license plate and Georgetown stickers on my car. It sure looks like a student car. How would they tell the difference? I cannot imagine the real police issuing tickets like this since that would seem to be illegal. It'd have to be DOPS and they have no real power to enforce their tickets. They do not have the ability to look up who a car belongs to to follow through.
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hoyatables
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Post by hoyatables on Jun 9, 2012 22:44:37 GMT -5
Universities have pretty wide leeway in terms of what they can require of their students, to say the least. Sure. The university can make up whatever rules it wants. But that sort of parking restriction is illegal under DC law, so its inclusion in the campus plan, which is incorporated into DC zoning law, would obviously be unenforceable. The parking prohibition's inclusion in the campus plan (even informally) would give student parkers avenues for legal recourse that otherwise wouldn't exist if the university were to try to enforce the restriction through in-house measures. Now, would the folks who run GU, having backed themselves into a legal corner, be dumb enough to try to keep kids from parking outside their homes anyway? I wouldn't put it past them, but they'd be begging for a lawsuit. ... AU and GW (at Mount Vernon) impose similar restrictions on parking.
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RusskyHoya
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Post by RusskyHoya on Jun 10, 2012 0:35:08 GMT -5
Sure. The university can make up whatever rules it wants. But that sort of parking restriction is illegal under DC law, so its inclusion in the campus plan, which is incorporated into DC zoning law, would obviously be unenforceable. The parking prohibition's inclusion in the campus plan (even informally) would give student parkers avenues for legal recourse that otherwise wouldn't exist if the university were to try to enforce the restriction through in-house measures. Now, would the folks who run GU, having backed themselves into a legal corner, be dumb enough to try to keep kids from parking outside their homes anyway? I wouldn't put it past them, but they'd be begging for a lawsuit. ... AU and GW (at Mount Vernon) impose similar restrictions on parking. Good news - you're both wrong! pash: sorry, there are no grounds for a lawsuit there. Just because DC law includes provisions saying that the city and other parties cannot discriminate against you based on a certain status does not mean that you cannot sign away your rights voluntarily. In effect, when you agree to become a student, you voluntarily sign away all manner of rights. There's a limit to this, but as I said, universities have a great deal of leeway here. To offer a currently valid example: BYU's Honor Code prohibits drinking alcohol or caffeine, wearing beards or strapless dresses, and "homosexual activities." The government obviously could not impose such restrictions, nor could, say, a landlord or business. But private universities can. You can't sue Georgetown for taking away your right to park on city streets any more than you could sue them for taking away your right to live anywhere you want. tables: AU students are explicitly allowed to have a car on-campus. Moreover, commuter students ("A 'commuter student' is any student living in a non-University owned or leased property") are explicitly told that "To park on District of Columbia streets, commuter students must register their vehicles with the District." It is true that AU's 'Good Neighbor Policy' states that: all members of the University community – including students, faculty, staff, visitors and guests – are required to do one of the following while attending class, working, or visiting AU owned property
A. Park on campus and obtain a parking permit, B. Purchase hourly/daily parking using the Pay-As-You-Go machines, or C. Use public transportation.
Compliance with the Good Neighbor Policy is a condition of enrollment and/or employment at American University.This only applies to when you have business at AU, though, not the rest of the time. At the GW Mount Vernon Campus, students may keep cars in the MVC Parking Garage or the Pelham Hall Lot, to the tune of $595.00 per semester. With regard to neighborhood streets, though, the GW example is quite similar: "Pursuant to this condition, the University discourages all students from bringing vehicles to the Foggy Bottom Campus. Freshmen and Sophomores in particular are prohibited from bringing vehicles and parking them in the Foggy Bottom/West End Area (the area bounded by 19th Street on the east, E Street on the south, Rock Creek Park on the west, and N Street on the north), except in exceptional circumstances. Exceptional circumstances may include, for example, transportation needs related to a disability or health condition of the student or member of his/her family...
If an exception is granted, the vehicle must be parked in a University parking facility. All Freshmen and Sophomores must confirm by their signature that the student has read and understands this parking policy, regardless of whether the student drives to the University or is eligible to have a car on campus.
Pursuant to the 1999 Mount Vernon Campus Plan zoning order, students, faculty and staff who bring vehicles to the Mount Vernon campus are required to park on the campus itself. Parking is prohibited on the streets adjacent to and surrounding the Mount Vernon campus.
Student violations of this policy are subject to disciplinary action pursuant to the University's Code of Conduct.Again, though, there is a material difference between that and prohibiting students from bringing cars to campus as well. Also, the restriction specifically concerns bringing vehicles to the Mount Vernon Campus - that is, to do something on the campus, like AU's rule. Aside from the "exceptions" that nullify the whole thing, the GU measure reads like an absolute prohibition, which no one else has. It is also true, as HSB says, that all of these provisions are largely unenforceable. American's law school is probably the most aggressive of the bunch, writing countless tickets to anyone parked in the area (locals are instructed to just trash them) and actively looking up the registration information of repeat parkers and cross-referencing them against student enrollment rosters. That only applies to a small radius around the school building, though, and even then students are permitted to become DC residents, get RPPs, and park in front of their homes. Given how few Georgetown students have cars, relative to the huge number of cars that park in the adjoining neighborhoods, 24/7 enforcement is effectively impossible. Still, though, the absolutist nature of the language and its stated broad scope does trouble me.
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Post by Problem of Dog on Jun 10, 2012 13:38:00 GMT -5
Here's the thing. A lot of our concessions were vague or unenforceable. They cannot really stop students from parking in Georgetown for example. How would they prove that the car belongs to a student? For example I park around campus all the time. I have an out of state license plate and Georgetown stickers on my car. It sure looks like a student car. How would they tell the difference? I cannot imagine the real police issuing tickets like this since that would seem to be illegal. It'd have to be DOPS and they have no real power to enforce their tickets. They do not have the ability to look up who a car belongs to to follow through. DOPS absolutely does have the power to enforce their tickets. Try and not pay a DOPS ticket and see the follow up. You'll have a debt collection company crawling up your @$$ and your registration flagged, creating problems with the DMV.
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Post by HoyaSinceBirth on Jun 10, 2012 14:08:40 GMT -5
hmm well they never followed up on mine.
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DFW HOYA
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Post by DFW HOYA on Jun 11, 2012 9:58:28 GMT -5
I see this settlement as generally favorable for Georgetown and favorable for the moderate elements of the community that simply want some order to the process. If you're the kind of NIMBY resident who wants a moat around the campus and students barred from traveling north of Reservoir Road, you weren't going to be satisfied either way. As for the major planks of the plan: 1. Georgetown Community Partnership: Residents get to vent more regularly, not just at planning time. Eventually, things settle down. 2. Undergraduate enrollment cap: Sounds ominous at first but GU doesn't want to overpopulate the student body which introduces lots of issues for faculty hiring, more classroom space, more dorms, etc. It's a number GU can work with, unlike resident threats to tie enrollment to available housing, which woukld have shrunk the uindergraduate size by 15-20% and that would have a material effect on campus life and tuition revenue. 3. Moving Magis Row: Unless you're living on 36th St., probably not a deal breaker. 4. Leavey Hall: Assuming, like most dorms, GU can't find a name for it, it's still a loss for visitors, but with Marriott gone and less inbound business coming to the Conference Center, it's probably seen as an accomodation that meets the current need with the loss of some share of the profits from the hotel business. Otherwise, I hope they keep up the rooms and don't strip it to a spartan, Village C-like appearance. 5. 90% Housing: Students groan, but it's a big win for GU. The opportunity cost of a settled number for 2025 vs. having this go to litigation and risk a 100% housing mandate going into law in 2016 was a significant one, so this allows for a measured plan on hosing going forward. 6. Student Center: This gets this project off the drawing board, though I share the low expectations that the restaurant and pub atmosphere will be less the Center Grill/Pub of old and more like the sterile and largely abandoned Hoya's in the Leavey Center. Best case is that it forms an entertainment nexus on campus with the dining hall and a fully finished and functioning MSF. Worst case, students simply ignore it and it becomes an expensive dorm lounge. 7. Satellite campus: This is potentially the biggest issue in this settlment--Georgetown has publicly admitted it has to build a new home outside 20007. The problem is that there are probably only two 100 acre sites left inside the Beltway--Reservation 13 and the part of the St. Elizabeth's campus not taken by DHS. Each has long term opportunities but lots of short term headache, and the DC government would have to be 110% behind either project for it to proceed. All in all, by the mid-21st century, a graduate/medical campus along the Anacostia River at Stadium-Armory could be much more palatable than riding the Silver Line for 90 minutes to Leesburg or an hour on a MARC train to Frederick for a Georgetown education, because that's where much of the available land is right now. Waiting another ten years, it might not even be there, either.
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