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[Oh My!]

Regardless of which segment of the political spectrum you tend, this article offers many reasons for Hoyas to be proud of the fact that the University fosters the acceptance of differing ideas (& sometimes ideals). I, for one, am very proud to be a Hoya.

religion.blogs.cnn.com/2012/05/18/in-culture-war-skirmishes-georgetown-becomes-political-football/?hpt=hp_t3

Still not so sure of the football metaphor, but I like the article. It's surely not *news* (i.e. current affairs) that GU finds itself accused of going against Catholic doctrine, but it could be interesting to see how people react. The article is not just about Sebelius, which has been covered in another thread.

[kchoya]

May 18, 2012 9:45:23 GMT -5 Oh My! said:

Regardless of which segment of the political spectrum you tend, this article offers many reasons for Hoyas to be proud of the fact that the University fosters the acceptance of differing ideas (& sometimes ideals). I, for one, am very proud to be a Hoya.

religion.blogs.cnn.com/2012/05/18/in-culture-war-skirmishes-georgetown-becomes-political-football/?hpt=hp_t3

Still not so sure of the football metaphor, but I like the article. It's surely not *news* (i.e. current affairs) that GU finds itself accused of going against Catholic doctrine, but it could be interesting to see how people react. The article is not just about Sebelius, which has been covered in another thread.

Joshua Phillips, a first year medical student at Georgetown, is looking forward to the graduation speeches. He said he appreciates the Catholic foundation of Georgetown – “it is nice to have another foundation to stand upon,” he said – but that the general atmosphere around campus is at odds with the church.

Mr. Phillips seems to minimize the role the Church plays (or should play) at Georgetown. That sort of thinking leads to this:

But others say the school has strayed too far from its Catholic identity. Professor Patrick Deneen is leaving Georgetown this summer to teach at another icon in Catholic education, the University of Notre Dame.

“I have felt isolated from the heart of the institution where I have devoted so many of my hours and my passion," Deneen wrote in an op-ed for Front Porch Republic. "Over time, I discovered that I was lonely at Georgetown.

“Notre Dame has recruited me explicitly because they regard me as someone who can be a significant contributor to its mission and identity, particularly the Catholic identity of the institution.”

[DFW HOYA]

Acceptance of differing ideas is one thing, but I run across those who sincerely do not understand why Georgetown is increasingly tepid in offering leadership in matters of faith. Faith without works is dead, said St. James, but works without faith are hollow as well.

There is also a sense out there that Georgetown appreciates diversity of thought, but when it doesn't contrast with its sensibilities. If Luis Palau or Joel Osteen was speaking at the GPPI commencement, would they be afforded the same deference by GU (and its students) about diversity?

[bmartin]

A university is not a church.
Sebellius is not a religious figure and is not speaking on religion. She is a public official heading an agency that has a strong relationship with
Georgetown including millions of dollars of grants for research and policy studies.
Georgetown offers coverage of contraception to its employees and GUMC docs prescribe birth control pills. The line has been drawn at not covering students and not inserting IUDs at GUMC. Whatever that is, it isn't consistent doctrine.

[kchoya]

May 18, 2012 11:14:07 GMT -5 bmartin said:

Sebellius is not a religious figure and is not speaking on religion.

Didn't speak about religion? What speech did you listen to?

She quoted Kennedy’s pre-election speech on his Catholicism, in which he called for an America “where no religious body seeks to impose its will directly or indirectly upon the general populace or the public acts of its officials — and where religious liberty is so indivisible that an act against one church is treated as an act against us all.”

“More than 50 years later,” Sebelius said, “that conversation, about the intersection of our nation’s long tradition of religious freedom with policy decisions that affect the general public, continues.”

[bmartin]

That is not speaking about or debating the validity of religious doctrines or sectarian differences. It is speaking about the need for public policy to be nonsectarian in a pluralistic society that values freedom.

[kchoya]

May 18, 2012 11:51:51 GMT -5 bmartin said:

That is not speaking about or debating the validity of religious doctrines or sectarian differences. It is speaking about the need for public policy to be nonsectarian in a pluralistic society that values freedom.

Did anyone expect her to speak on the validity of religious doctrines or sectarian differences?

You're moving the goalposts.

[TC]

May 18, 2012 12:36:13 GMT -5 kchoya said:

Did anyone expect her to speak on the validity of religious doctrines or sectarian differences?

Father's Schall's claim :

She speaks presumably in support of her position, a position specifically rejected by the nation’s bishops as contrary to our tradition of liberty and religious autonomy. It’s man bites dog. No reporter worth his salt would miss it. “FEDERAL OFFICIAL DEFINES RELIGION IN HONORARY ADDRESS.” We can see it now.

Acknowledging a conflict is not the same thing as speaking in support of a position.

[LizziebethHoya]

Looks like the 10 or so people protesting the speech were white males in kilts or khakis/blazers. I think that speaks for itself.

blog.georgetownvoice.com/2012/05/18/small-group-of-pro-life-catholics-protest-sebeliuss-lecture-at-gppi/

[kchoya]

May 18, 2012 14:47:50 GMT -5 LizziebethHoya said:

Looks like the 10 or so people protesting the speech were white males in kilts or khakis/blazers. I think that speaks for itself.

blog.georgetownvoice.com/2012/05/18/small-group-of-pro-life-catholics-protest-sebeliuss-lecture-at-gppi/

Yes, I agree. They represent the totality of the opposition to her speaking at GU.

By the way, which one was Frank Black?

[EasyEd]

May 18, 2012 19:20:52 GMT -5 kchoya said:

May 18, 2012 14:47:50 GMT -5 LizziebethHoya said:

Looks like the 10 or so people protesting the speech were white males in kilts or khakis/blazers. I think that speaks for itself.

blog.georgetownvoice.com/2012/05/18/small-group-of-pro-life-catholics-protest-sebeliuss-lecture-at-gppi/

Yes, I agree. They represent the totality of the opposition to her speaking at GU.

By the way, which one was Frank Black?

And that, in itself, says something about the lack of Catholic in the oldest Catholic college in the U.S. Blatty has it right.

[LizziebethHoya]

I have an honest question for those who are concerned Georgetown is losing its Catholic identity:

What are you looking for Georgetown to be as a University? Are you looking it to be a preeminent academic center of learning and progress or are you looking for it to be a preeminent center for Catholic religious thought? Or, how do you realistically suppose we combine the two better than we have right now?

I'm struggling to understand why blocking out everyone who opposes some minor subsection of Catholic doctrine from speaking enhances students' ability to critically analyze the world around them to be able to later go out and engage in civil discourse with those with whom they disagree. The world does not exist in a Catholic bubble, and is it not the role of Georgetown to teach students how to use their faith to engage with others and shape public policy to meet the needs of all global citizens, not just people of the Catholic faith? To be able to do that, students need to learn how to constructively dialogue with others, and constructive dialogue doesn't consist of "I don't agree with you so I'm not going to listen to what you have to say."

[EasyEd]

What am I looking for in a Catholic college? I’m looking for a college that teaches Catholic doctrine to all of its students. A college where its students are predominantly Catholics who will become the Catholic leaders of tomorrow. A college where the professors and instructors of Catholic doctrine are apologists for the Catholic faith. A college whose actions reflect its commitment to Catholicism. A college where students progress in their Catholic faith during their stay at that college. This is what it means when you attach the term, Catholic, to your description and this is the first and foremost requirement of being a Catholic college.

As for the second part of the title, college, I expect the college to be a place where knowledge is passed on by professors and instructors who are experts in their fields: professors and instructors who have specialized in their fields through advanced studies or experience outside of academia. And I expect the students to absorb as much of that knowledge as possible. This is the core of what a college should be. Within this framework I would expect the professors and instructors to foster an environment where students can explore subject matter through discussions and independent creative assignments. The end product of the college part of the title, Catholic college, should be students who are knowledgeable in their specialized fields and are prepared to either enter the workforce or move on to advanced study.

If either of these two parts are missing I don’t see how a college can call itself a Catholic college.

[SSHoya]

EasyEd, I think you just described The Catholic University of America . . .

[hoya9797]

May 19, 2012 12:33:18 GMT -5 EasyEd said:

What am I looking for in a Catholic college? I’m looking for a college that teaches Catholic doctrine to all of its students. A college where its students are predominantly Catholics who will become the Catholic leaders of tomorrow. A college where the professors and instructors of Catholic doctrine are apologists for the Catholic faith. A college whose actions reflect its commitment to Catholicism. A college where students progress in their Catholic faith during their stay at that college. This is what it means when you attach the term, Catholic, to your description and this is the first and foremost requirement of being a Catholic college.

This sounds like a terrible school. Thankfully, this was not the Georgetown I attended. And, if GU wants to be a serious university, it needs to get as far from this kind of nonsense as possible.

Edited. Avoid perjorative comments about this situation.--Admin

[EasyEd]

Those of you who disagreed with my definition of a Catholic college - how about telling me first what your definition is and, second, how that differs from the definition of any other college or any other Christian college.

[hoyaLS05]

May 19, 2012 12:33:18 GMT -5 EasyEd said:

What am I looking for in a Catholic college? IÂ’m looking for a college that teaches Catholic doctrine to all of its students. A college where its students are predominantly Catholics who will become the Catholic leaders of tomorrow. A college where the professors and instructors of Catholic doctrine are apologists for the Catholic faith. A college whose actions reflect its commitment to Catholicism. A college where students progress in their Catholic faith during their stay at that college. This is what it means when you attach the term, Catholic, to your description and this is the first and foremost requirement of being a Catholic college.

When I took Jesuit Education with Fr. Maher as a senior, this is not how anyone conceived a Jesuit education or a Georgetown education. I loved attending a Jesuit university but would not trade it for the experience described above.

As an addendum: The more I think about it, it may have been unfair to say NO ONE conceived of a Jesuit/Georgetown education this way, but it was certainly not the dominant view.

[hoya4ever]

I am not Catholic so I take my own thoughts with a grain of salt, but I think Georgetown is a Jesuit university, not a Catholic one. I know we put these two together, and they are certainly related, but I would choose Georgetown for the Jesuit part, not the Catholic part. It is not for us to be Catholic, but Jesuit.

I think hoyaLS05 mentioned something close to it above, but a Jesuit institution is far less constricted than a Catholic one. I see it as the job of that institution to create that conflict in the students' minds, to forcefully foster the debate, not, as mentioned above, to expect students to do it independently.

It is our job to challenge and to be challenged. There is no reason for the Jesuits to exist if not for this. Most Jesuits have advanced educations and they do so happily because they recognize that we do not, indeed, live in a Catholic bubble, but very much the opposite. That duty of the Jesuits is recognized by parents, scholars, and others worldwide who respect that learning and afford it the honors that they do by selecting it over other methods of schooling, Catholic ones included.

The mission of Georgetown should be based on that Jesuit ideal. The pillars of values we put everywhere around campus solidify our educational philosophy perfectly. Jesuit schools around the world share them. We are a Jesuit university committed to fostering academic, practical, and diverse talk. May we always be that.

[DFW HOYA]

May 20, 2012 12:34:31 GMT -5 hoya4ever said:

I am not Catholic so I take my own thoughts with a grain of salt, but I think Georgetown is a Jesuit university, not a Catholic one. I know we put these two together, and they are certainly related, but iI would choose Georgetown for the Jesuit part, not the Catholic part. It is not for us to be Catholic, but Jesuit.

I will note your introductory statement and then say that you are misinformed. It is right and proper for Georgetown to be a Catholic university inasmuch as you cannot separate the Jesuit order from the Church Militant--the "Jesuit way" is not some sort of intra-faith denomination such as Reformed Judaism, nor the sort of intellectual argument which regards "Jesuit ideals" as more acceptable than mere Catholicism, any more than those would say Presbyterianism is somehow a more politically correct form of Calvinism.

The Jesuit order was formed in the Roman Catholic Church, plain and simple. The Jesuit idea is no "less Catholic" nor should it be. To say one way is Jesuit but not Catholic is illogical--it's as if one is a native New Yorker but then says he is not American.

The transformation of the Jesuit order in the 1950's and 1960's from a very doctrinal one to an order which espoused liberation theology and had priests running for political offices* was a turn that did not sit well back at the "home office", and in these matters, Rome usually wins in the end.

The Jesuit ideal has never been to challenge authority merely for the sake of doing so--two of their four vows speak to obedience and fidelity to the Pontiff for mission work--and each SJ agrees to do both.

---

*Yes, some Jesuits actually ran for public office back in the day. One ran for U.S. Senate in 1970 on an anti-war platform. (You may know his name.)

select.nytimes.com/gst/abstract.html?res=F50D11FF3D5F14738DDDAA0A94D0405B808BF1D3

[jgalt]

May 19, 2012 12:33:18 GMT -5 EasyEd said:

What am I looking for in a Catholic college? I’m looking for a college that teaches Catholic doctrine to all of its students. A college where its students are predominantly Catholics who will become the Catholic leaders of tomorrow. A college where the professors and instructors of Catholic doctrine are apologists for the Catholic faith. A college whose actions reflect its commitment to Catholicism. A college where students progress in their Catholic faith during their stay at that college. This is what it means when you attach the term, Catholic, to your description and this is the first and foremost requirement of being a Catholic college.

As for the second part of the title, college, I expect the college to be a place where knowledge is passed on by professors and instructors who are experts in their fields: professors and instructors who have specialized in their fields through advanced studies or experience outside of academia. And I expect the students to absorb as much of that knowledge as possible. This is the core of what a college should be. Within this framework I would expect the professors and instructors to foster an environment where students can explore subject matter through discussions and independent creative assignments. The end product of the college part of the title, Catholic college, should be students who are knowledgeable in their specialized fields and are prepared to either enter the workforce or move on to advanced study.

If either of these two parts are missing I don’t see how a college can call itself a Catholic college.

But dont those two definitions often come into conflict with each other. And doesnt the exploration of knowledge necessarily reject an institution which follows an unchanging (or at the very least, slowly changing) doctrine?

I dont believe that the description above describes a university that serves the current Georgetown student population or the perspective student population.