RusskyHoya
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Post by RusskyHoya on May 17, 2012 14:35:04 GMT -5
There is a pretty big leap in logic made when one holds that disagreeing with the church on a particular issue (a disagreement that the person themselves does not find to be sufficient cause to leave the church) is tantamount to denying everything the university and the church stand for. Unsurprisingly, those who take such a Manichean view tend to identify as redlines those particular stances which fit their politics. So if one is on the left, Paul Ryan is a bad Catholic and stands opposed to the Church because he supports torture, war, mass incarceration, cutting programs that help the poor to pay for tax cuts and incentives for the wealthy, etc. If one is on the right, anyone who disagrees with the church on homosexuality or matters related to the female reproductive system is a bad Catholic/stands opposed to the Church. Of course, that letter regarding Paul Ryan explicitly affirmed his right to come to Georgetown and receive the honor of giving the annual Whittington Lecture...
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sead43
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Post by sead43 on May 18, 2012 11:12:02 GMT -5
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Post by Frank Black on May 18, 2012 11:54:02 GMT -5
There is a pretty big leap in logic made when one holds that disagreeing with the church on a particular issue (a disagreement that the person themselves does not find to be sufficient cause to leave the church) is tantamount to denying everything the university and the church stand for. Unsurprisingly, those who take such a Manichean view tend to identify as redlines those particular stances which fit their politics. So if one is on the left, Paul Ryan is a bad Catholic and stands opposed to the Church because he supports torture, war, mass incarceration, cutting programs that help the poor to pay for tax cuts and incentives for the wealthy, etc. If one is on the right, anyone who disagrees with the church on homosexuality or matters related to the female reproductive system is a bad Catholic/stands opposed to the Church. Of course, that letter regarding Paul Ryan explicitly affirmed his right to come to Georgetown and receive the honor of giving the annual Whittington Lecture... This is of course a false equivalence. The issues that supposedly make Paul Ryan a "bad Catholic" are issues that Catholics can disagree on while maintaining their good standing in the Church. It would be one thing for Paul Ryan to say, "I would like to bomb Iraq because I hate Iraqis." Then he would rightly be considered in open defiance of the Church. What Sebelius, EJ Dionne, the Kennedys et al advocate is open revolt against core Catholic moral teaching. And for Sebelius to receive an invitation to speak this year of all years pushes this former donor over the edge. Sometimes you have to stand up for your beliefs, and Georgetown has simply surrendered.
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EasyEd
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Post by EasyEd on May 19, 2012 9:23:12 GMT -5
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Post by flyoverhoya on May 19, 2012 13:47:03 GMT -5
Suppose we can all look forward to yet another 15 minutes for Manny Miranda, too.
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jgalt
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Post by jgalt on May 20, 2012 13:09:01 GMT -5
What Sebelius, EJ Dionne, the Kennedys et al advocate is open revolt against core Catholic moral teaching. And for Sebelius to receive an invitation to speak this year of all years pushes this former donor over the edge. Sometimes you have to stand up for your beliefs, and Georgetown has simply surrendered. Maybe those "core Catholic moral teachings" are wrong?
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bmartin
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Post by bmartin on May 20, 2012 15:41:23 GMT -5
If you think Sebelius is anti-Catholic you need to head over to the library and start burning books, shut down the med school, the law school, stop taking federal grants, and restart the Inquisition to purge the university of heretics.
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jgalt
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Post by jgalt on May 20, 2012 18:21:45 GMT -5
If you think Sebelius is anti-Catholic you need to head over to the library and start burning books, shut down the med school, the law school, stop taking federal grants, and restart the Inquisition to purge the university of heretics. Dont forget the new MSB building; it is named after a muslim after all.
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EasyEd
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Post by EasyEd on May 20, 2012 18:44:59 GMT -5
If you think Sebelius is anti-Catholic you need to head over to the library and start burning books, shut down the med school, the law school, stop taking federal grants, and restart the Inquisition to purge the university of heretics. Sebelius' bishop has asked her not to receive the Holy Eucharist because of her stand on legalized abortion. The American Catholic bishops called the mandate she promulgated on Catholic institutions regarding contraception, aborfacients and sterilization "an unprecedented attack on religious liberty".
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kchoya
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Post by kchoya on May 20, 2012 18:56:44 GMT -5
What Sebelius, EJ Dionne, the Kennedys et al advocate is open revolt against core Catholic moral teaching. And for Sebelius to receive an invitation to speak this year of all years pushes this former donor over the edge. Sometimes you have to stand up for your beliefs, and Georgetown has simply surrendered. Maybe those "core Catholic moral teachings" are wrong? Wrong or not, don't you think a Catholic University should honor them?
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jgalt
Diamond Hoya (over 2500 posts)
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Post by jgalt on May 20, 2012 23:24:50 GMT -5
Maybe those "core Catholic moral teachings" are wrong? Wrong or not, don't you think a Catholic University should honor them? No, I dont think that people or institutions should continue to believe things that are wrong just because its what they have been believing for a long time.
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kchoya
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Post by kchoya on May 21, 2012 6:57:51 GMT -5
Wrong or not, don't you think a Catholic University should honor them? No, I dont think that people or institutions should continue to believe things that are wrong just because its what they have been believing for a long time. That's not the question I asked, but thanks for playing.
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jgalt
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Post by jgalt on May 21, 2012 11:12:30 GMT -5
No, I dont think that people or institutions should continue to believe things that are wrong just because its what they have been believing for a long time. That's not the question I asked, but thanks for playing. If being a Catholic means that one needs to believe things which are morally wrong then why would we want the university to be more of the that? And that is what you asked, if not then you should be more clear.
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Post by Frank Black on May 21, 2012 11:31:08 GMT -5
That's not the question I asked, but thanks for playing. If being a Catholic means that one needs to believe things which are morally wrong then why would we want the university to be more of the that? And that is what you asked, if not then you should be more clear. If Georgetown thinks the teachings are wrong, then it should no longer claim to be Catholic. If you'd like to advocate for that, feel free. However, as long as Georgetown claims some kind of Catholic identity it ought not honor one of the foremost antagonists of religious freedom in public life today. Not sure this got posted earlier, but it is a must read: www.firstthings.com/onthesquare/2012/05/ldquofor-the-salvation-of-soulsrdquo
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TC
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Post by TC on May 21, 2012 12:33:47 GMT -5
Can someone answer me this :
Why is all the outrage over Sebellius' invitation for a speech and not over the fact that Georgetown already offers employee health plans with birth control available? I just got reading through Dineen's post and I do not understand how someone is a "persecutor" for trying to indirectly mandate something that Georgetown is already providing of its own volition.
Not one of the articles I've seen from Georgetown figures opposed to the Sebellius speech (Dineen, Schall, Blatty) has even mentioned that Georgetown freely offers employees plans with birth control. If people really find offering birth control to employees morally wrong, why isn't the fault on the side of *actually doing that*, rather than on letting someone speak at an event who favors doing it?
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EasyEd
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Post by EasyEd on May 21, 2012 13:51:57 GMT -5
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TC
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Post by TC on May 21, 2012 14:06:07 GMT -5
One other thing on Dineen's letter: it smacks of "Why I quit Goldman Sachs", or "Why I quit Google".
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CWS
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Post by CWS on May 21, 2012 14:19:04 GMT -5
If being a Catholic means that one needs to believe things which are morally wrong then why would we want the university to be more of the that? And that is what you asked, if not then you should be more clear. If Georgetown thinks the teachings are wrong, then it should no longer claim to be Catholic. If you'd like to advocate for that, feel free. However, as long as Georgetown claims some kind of Catholic identity it ought not honor one of the foremost antagonists of religious freedom in public life today. Not sure this got posted earlier, but it is a must read: www.firstthings.com/onthesquare/2012/05/ldquofor-the-salvation-of-soulsrdquoThat's vintage Deneen: giving events a bit more symbolic weight than they can handle. [Deneen was the one who criticized the business school building as a symbolic attack on Gtown's commitment to the liberal arts: www.thehoya.com/new-campus-buildings-betray-aim-of-liberal-arts-education-1.1884153#.T7p3HZ9YtpE.] I'm not defending the Sebelius invitation, but it wasn't an intentional effort to insult the bishops or deny Georgetown's Catholic identity. Public policy students wanted a public policy person; the dean of PPI invited her. I don't think it was a wise move, but souls are still being saved (or at least, the effort goes on ). I think that Deneen is right that some sort of honor is involved (any invitation to speak on campus represents an honor), but it was, in my opinion, a little more ambiguous of an honor than he suggests. Interesting op-ed piece in the diocesan paper. The diocese did not want Georgetown to rescind the invitation, but only to publicly state that Sebelius' views were not theirs: www.cathstan.org/main.asp?SectionID=2&SubSectionID=19&ArticleID=5152I guess that's what DeGioia intended with this comment but it wasn't enough? The Secretary’s presence on our campus should not be viewed as an endorsement of her views. As a Catholic and Jesuit University, Georgetown disassociates itself from any positions that are in conflict with traditional church teachings.
We are a university, committed to the free exchange of ideas. We are a community that draws inspiration from a religious tradition that provides us with an intellectual, moral, and spiritual foundation. By engaging these values we become the University we are meant to be. www.georgetown.edu/GPPI-Tropaia-2012.html
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EasyEd
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Post by EasyEd on May 21, 2012 18:57:44 GMT -5
Can someone answer me this : Why is all the outrage over Sebellius' invitation for a speech and not over the fact that Georgetown already offers employee health plans with birth control available? I just got reading through Dineen's post and I do not understand how someone is a "persecutor" for trying to indirectly mandate something that Georgetown is already providing of its own volition. Not one of the articles I've seen from Georgetown figures opposed to the Sebellius speech (Dineen, Schall, Blatty) has even mentioned that Georgetown freely offers employees plans with birth control. If people really find offering birth control to employees morally wrong, why isn't the fault on the side of *actually doing that*, rather than on letting someone speak at an event who favors doing it? Agree 100%.
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hoyatables
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Post by hoyatables on May 21, 2012 20:22:30 GMT -5
A cynic might note that the hubbub around Sebelius was partly posturing to pave the way for a forthcoming lawsuit.
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