Georgetown letter to Paul Ryan

[nodak89]

docs.google.com/a/jrn.com/document/d/1JRLM7Jh9PnrxptafWYENXdAmxnXd4gQJMYTu3H4TFHA/edit?pli=1#

can't believe this isn't on HT already

[TBird41]

Maybe b/c further attacking Ryan just serves to highlight the fact the Democrats refuse to address the coming debt crisis?



Anyway, I'm not sure how it helps the poor to let ourselves get so broke that we either have to slash the safety net's benefits or inflate their value away, but whatever--I'm sure that people will continue lending us money forever. That bubble will never pop!

Oh, and the basic method he uses to "cut" these programs is to block grant them to the states. So, basically, it meets both subsidiarity and subsidium--or as they put it "It calls for solutions to be enacted as close to the level of local communities as possible. But it also demands that higher levels of government provide help -- “subsidium”-- when communities and local governments face problems beyond their means to address such as economic crises, high unemployment, endemic poverty and hunger. "

Also, generally his cuts are more about freezing programs (or cutting their growth). The government doesn't really cut its budget in the classic sense of lowering the amount it spends--it cuts by cutting the amount it was planning on increasing it. Ryan's "cuts" to Pell Grants are a good example--his budget keeps them the same, rather than growing them.

[nodak89]

The Ayn Rand line stopped my dead in my tracks.

Just listening to Thomas Reese, SJ on the SiriusXM POTUS channel with Tim Farley. Fr Reese felt like that Paul Ryan couldn't get a pass on incorrectly invoking Catholic social teaching as the basis for his budget proposal.

[TBird41]

Apr 26, 2012 9:36:28 GMT -5 nodak89 said:

The Ayn Rand line stopped my dead in my tracks.

Just listening to Thomas Reese, SJ on the SiriusXM POTUS channel with Tim Farley. Fr Reese felt like that Paul Ryan couldn't get a pass on incorrectly invoking Catholic social teaching as the basis for his budget proposal.

What do you mean by "stopped me dead in my tracks"? I don't want to misinterpret you.

Also does my logic work? I'm not the biggest Catholic scholar, but based on their definition, it seems like its reasonable for Rep. Ryan to think his plans meet the definitions (especially when he thinks that his plan will grow the economy, pull people out of poverty and preserve the safety net). Does the Catholic Church really have a position on the best way for the Government to grow the economy, lower unemployment and help the poor?

[nodak89]

Apr 26, 2012 9:42:08 GMT -5 TBird41 said:

Apr 26, 2012 9:36:28 GMT -5 nodak89 said:

The Ayn Rand line stopped my dead in my tracks.

Just listening to Thomas Reese, SJ on the SiriusXM POTUS channel with Tim Farley. Fr Reese felt like that Paul Ryan couldn't get a pass on incorrectly invoking Catholic social teaching as the basis for his budget proposal.

What do you mean by "stopped me dead in my tracks"? I don't want to misinterpret you.

Also does my logic work? I'm not the biggest Catholic scholar, but based on their definition, it seems like its reasonable for Rep. Ryan to think his plans meet the definitions (especially when he thinks that his plan will grow the economy, pull people out of poverty and preserve the safety net). Does the Catholic Church really have a position on the best way for the Government to grow the economy, lower unemployment and help the poor?

I was shocked and felt it was too far into ad hominem territory and risked stopping the discussion rather than furthering it.

I'm no expert either, but I feel like your assesment is a reasonable interpretation. The problem is finding the right balance. The risk of subsidium is squander. The risk of subsidiarity is incompleteness.

To me it's "both/and". One could even say it's utraque unum.

[Boz]

Some commentary:

www.nationalreview.com/articles/297023/ryan-shrugged-robert-costa

[flyoverhoya]

Would that Ryan required his staff read Aquinas, rather than Rand.

I don't really have a strong opinion of Ryan one way or the other, but on the issue of his apparent admiration of Rand, he doth protest a little too much.

[Boz]

Apr 26, 2012 10:28:56 GMT -5 flyoverhoya said:

Would that Ryan required his staff read Aquinas, rather than Rand.

Would that he didn't have specific reading requirements for his staff and they could read what they choose to.

Oh, wait. That's actually the case.

[kchoya]

Apr 26, 2012 10:01:32 GMT -5 nodak89 said:

Apr 26, 2012 9:42:08 GMT -5 TBird41 said:

What do you mean by "stopped me dead in my tracks"? I don't want to misinterpret you.

Also does my logic work? I'm not the biggest Catholic scholar, but based on their definition, it seems like its reasonable for Rep. Ryan to think his plans meet the definitions (especially when he thinks that his plan will grow the economy, pull people out of poverty and preserve the safety net). Does the Catholic Church really have a position on the best way for the Government to grow the economy, lower unemployment and help the poor?

I was shocked and felt it was too far into ad hominem territory and risked stopping the discussion rather than furthering it.

I'm of the same mind. I thought the Ayn Rand reference diminished the letter, and came across as something you'd see/hear on cable news or an internet message board.

Love him or hate him, at least Ryan engages the other side and is genuinely interested in having a thoughtful debate about the issues. Very Jack Kemp-like in that regard.

[TBird41]

Here's the text of Ryan's speech: www.nationalreview.com/corner/297054/paul-ryans-whittington-lecture-daniel-foster

I really, really, really wish he had run for President.

[TC]

Apr 26, 2012 10:28:56 GMT -5 flyoverhoya said:

Would that Ryan required his staff read Aquinas, rather than Rand.

I don't really have a strong opinion of Ryan one way or the other, but on the issue of his apparent admiration of Rand, he doth protest a little too much.

+1

Ryan is being such a gigantic phony here - his so-called denial of Rand is contemptible - rejecting her because he says she's a dirty atheist not because he disagrees with anything she says.

[kchoya]

Apr 26, 2012 17:03:09 GMT -5 TC said:

Apr 26, 2012 10:28:56 GMT -5 flyoverhoya said:

Would that Ryan required his staff read Aquinas, rather than Rand.

I don't really have a strong opinion of Ryan one way or the other, but on the issue of his apparent admiration of Rand, he doth protest a little too much.

+1

Ryan is being such a gigantic phony here - his so-called denial of Rand is contemptible - rejecting her because he says she's a dirty atheist not because he disagrees with anything she says.

How is this a so-called denal?

“I reject her philosophy,” Ryan says firmly.

Seems like you're imposing a caricature of Ryan in to the story in order to support a certain narrative.

[TC]

Apr 26, 2012 17:18:28 GMT -5 kchoya said:

“I reject her philosophy,” Ryan says firmly.

Seems like you're imposing want you want Ryan to believe in to the story in order to support a certain narrative.

There's a comma after philosophy. What came after that?

“I reject her philosophy,” Ryan says firmly. “It’s an atheist philosophy. It reduces human interactions down to mere contracts and it is antithetical to my worldview.

www.nationalreview.com/articles/297023/ryan-shrugged-robert-costa

I don't see how he's being civil to atheists.

[kchoya]

Apr 26, 2012 17:22:34 GMT -5 TC said:

Apr 26, 2012 17:18:28 GMT -5 kchoya said:

Seems like you're imposing want you want Ryan to believe in to the story in order to support a certain narrative.

There's a comma after philosophy. What came after that?

“I reject her philosophy,” Ryan says firmly. “It’s an atheist philosophy. It reduces human interactions down to mere contracts and it is antithetical to my worldview.

www.nationalreview.com/articles/297023/ryan-shrugged-robert-costa

I don't see how he's being civil to atheists.

1. Who said anything about not being civil?

2. Based on those quotes, I don't see how you can say he agrees with everything Rand says. Seems pretty clear he's not the Rand acolyte many want to make him out to be.

[kchoya]

Videos:

www.therightscoop.com/full-speech-and-qa-paul-ryan-speech-on-debt-reduction-at-georgetown-university/

[TBird41]

Apr 26, 2012 17:22:34 GMT -5 TC said:

Apr 26, 2012 17:18:28 GMT -5 kchoya said:

Seems like you're imposing want you want Ryan to believe in to the story in order to support a certain narrative.

There's a comma after philosophy. What came after that?

“I reject her philosophy,” Ryan says firmly. “It’s an atheist philosophy. It reduces human interactions down to mere contracts and it is antithetical to my worldview.

www.nationalreview.com/articles/297023/ryan-shrugged-robert-costa

I don't see how he's being civil to atheists.

So all atheists believe the same thing as Rand does? That's the only way to read his statement as being offensive to all atheists.

He's critiquing her philosophy, which is 1) atheist and 2) reduces human interaction down to mere contracts.

Is that how all atheists view human interaction? I didn't think that was how most atheists viewed people.

[Buckets]

I'm sure you could read it otherwise if you tried, but he's saying that the fact that that philosophy is not based on the existence of God is reason to dismiss it out of hand. Atheists only make up about 12% of the American electorate (last I read) and the person most famous for being an atheist in this country is a dickhead. 29% of conservative voters said in 2007 that they would even consider voting for an atheist (link), so this is not some politically controversial statement he's making.

[TC]

Apr 27, 2012 10:23:46 GMT -5 TBird41 said:

He's critiquing her philosophy, which is 1) atheist and 2) reduces human interaction down to mere contracts.

So he only believes in free markets because Adam Smith thought the invisible hand was God?

And how have we gotten to the point where a fiscal Republican is ashamed to be associated Ayn Rand? It'd be hilarious if it wasn't so phony baloney.

[TBird41]

Apr 27, 2012 11:06:52 GMT -5 TC said:

Apr 27, 2012 10:23:46 GMT -5 TBird41 said:

He's critiquing her philosophy, which is 1) atheist and 2) reduces human interaction down to mere contracts.

So he only believes in free markets because Adam Smith thought the invisible hand was God?

And how have we gotten to the point where a fiscal Republican is ashamed to be associated Ayn Rand? It'd be hilarious if it wasn't so phony baloney.

He probably believes in free markets because they work. Something he learned as an economics major. Too bad our current president's major was political science, otherwise our economy might not be such a joke.

[kchoya]

Apr 27, 2012 10:48:22 GMT -5 Buckets said:

I'm sure you could read it otherwise if you tried, but he's saying that the fact that that philosophy is not based on the existence of God is reason to dismiss it out of hand. Atheists only make up about 12% of the American electorate (last I read) and the person most famous for being an atheist in this country is a dickhead. 29% of conservative voters said in 2007 that they would even consider voting for an atheist (link), so this is not some politically controversial statement he's making.

Who is the person most famous for being an atheist in this country?