College For Sale

[kchoya]

Oct 1, 2012 18:21:06 GMT -5 hoyatables said:

I still don't understand why GU is spending all this money to construct this hypothetical arena 10 miles (and 30 minutes) from campus that will be used a dozen times a year. Renting Verizon Center is a better deal.

Because a lot of people don't like the current arena situation. Verizon is a pro arena that's only full 1-2 games a year, is oftne overrun by fans of the opposing team, and doesn't provide any material home-court advantage. McDonough is useless for anything other than to lose to ODU every two years. And there is no hope of getting a viable on-campus arena due to the ANC, lack of money, lack of space and based on GU's past performance.

So people are grasping at any other possibilities, no matter how remote. They're so thirsty for a new arena they'll crawl through the desert toward a mirage, and when they discover there's no water, they'll drink the sand.

[TC]

If a 40 acre toxic waste dump built on a haunted Native American burial ground inhabited by multiple endangered species were available within the DC area, I think it would be something that GU should seriously consider buying. So many opportunities have been blown throughout the years and large chunks of land have become so scarce that GU should be springing on every opportunity it can afford, if not just for arbitrage at the absurdly low financing rates at the moment.

A 40 acre school with buildings, fields, zoning, and already existing programs that might rent out parts of the campus and that wants to sell to a University is the biggest no brainer in the history of the earth. So I think the chances that Georgetown will blow this are pretty high.

[kchoya]

Oct 2, 2012 8:43:48 GMT -5 TC said:

A 40 acre school with buildings, fields, zoning, and already existing programs that might rent out parts of the campus and that wants to sell to a University is the biggest no brainer in the history of the earth. So I think the chances that Georgetown will blow this are pretty high.

If the 40 acres were just up the road from the Main Campus, I'd say the chances would be 100%.

I agree. If GU can get sizeable parcels of land in DC or nearby (at reasonable terms), it should do so.

[LizziebethHoya]

Besides the obvious need for athletic fields (which IMO, if in Silver Spring, is too far for the undergrad athletes to travel on a day to day basis without sacrificing their academic lives), what else does Georgetown REALLY need?

I'm personally afraid we are growing too much. Why do we need to be that much bigger than we already are? Is this growth sustainable? Or, is there a risk that we may not be able to sustain such a large size in the future? Should we rather focus on improving the quality of what we already have?

I only am thinking about this because lesser-ranked private, Jesuit universities are now having to grapple with eliminating departments and cutting programs because they cannot financially sustain them - some programs just cost too much money and private universities can't keep raising tuition the way they have in the past because the their students are now flocking to the public universities. While Georgetown may not have this demand problem now, there may come a point where the best middle class students (read: those whose families get no financial help and truly sacrifice to pay tuition) would all rather chose a public institution over paying Georgetown tuition. Where would that leave the Georgetown student body? Not very socioeconomically diverse: Very wealthy and very poor, and not much in between. We would start losing out on some of the best students, which would substantially hurt the university.

So we have our spots abroad (totally cool), the law campus downtown, and main campus. SCS is moving downtown next year or the year after. The campus is as fragmented as, I think, it should be. Moving more programs (spare the medical school, which could be anywhere with a hospital), would truly hurt the community feel of Georgetown. If visitation or GW's Mount Vernon opened up - that would be a no-brainer. This is just too far away.

I'm not saying I'm right about all of this, and I really don't know enough about the future of the university to make any informed judgments about possible development. I just think these questions need to be asked.

[hilltopper2000]

"If . . . GW's Mount Vernon opened up - that would be a no-brainer." If only.....

[TC]

Oct 2, 2012 13:09:11 GMT -5 LizziebethHoya said:

I'm personally afraid we are growing too much. Why do we need to be that much bigger than we already are? Is this growth sustainable?

Asides from the bleeding heart "you can't do that to the nuns" argument, I feel like that's the sort of short sighted argument that cost us Visitation. And look how much space has been needed since 1993.

Credit is so cheap right now, that I don't think you could go wrong buying it if the price is reasonable, especially with the fact that you have an organization that wants to rent some of the space. If they don't have a need for it in the future, would Georgetown really have a tough time unloading 47 acres in Silver Spring? If you don't buy space now, what are your options in the future - build more on campus? Where?

This is one of those problems where the answer to when Georgetown should have bought is always going to be yesterday - if the University had bought land in the 60's, the 70's, the 80's or the 90's, they would have found a use for it. Same with this.

Schools don't have to pay taxes, so other than capital maintenance, I'm not sure how this could turn out to be some huge unmanageable money sink.

[thebin]

I have some sympathy for Lizziebeth's sentiments regarding remote expansion. I agree that the only move that is all-positive is moving the Med Center and chool to a remote site thereby freeing up that space for academic and athletic campus use. The entire idea of breaking up the undergrad students and activities to remote non-walkable sites doesn't sit well. If we can get a 6-8K arena on campus where the medical school currently is that's fantastic. If not, I think the benefits of having a smaller and presumably cheaper arena in Silver Spring or whatever start to look very limited but still at considerably high cost. Frankly if we are going to play most of our hoops games off campus, they might as well be at Verizon. But if we can free up space by moving the med center for more academic/residential/athletic facilities on actual campus then I think that is a no-brainer.

[RusskyHoya]

Even if the hospital and Medical Center were to decamp for St. Elizabeth's or some other locale, I don't know that there's enough space on the Hilltop to comfortably house our almost 30 varsity sports (plus all the club sports, intramurals, etc.). Fields just plain take up a lot of space, and space is the most precious resource in Georgetown. The concerns about Silver Spring being far away are valid... but we have plenty of teams scattered great distances as is. The baseball team plays up in Bethesda, the field hockey team has alternated between playing at American and at UMD, the sailing team has to travel regardless, golf ditto, etc. So it wouldn't be that big of a change from that status quo.

Undergrads will remain on the Hilltop, as will many other things. The Public Policy Institute (which was supposed to become a full-fledged school at some point and presumably still might) can be kicked downtown without too much difficulty. There are also a pretty large number of more-or-less self-contained, portable centers, institutions, and units that might be comfortably housed at a place like the NLRC. The Kalmanovitz Initiative for Labor and the Working Poor (http://lwp.georgetown.edu), anyone? The University is teeming with such bodies.

The concerns about growth that Lizziebeth raises cannot be dismissed outright, as the "Higher Ed Bubble" talk grows in volume each day. However, unlike just about all of its Jesuit and Catholic brethren (Notre Dame and BC being the main exceptions), GU has the brand name and money in the bank that shields it from many of the forces buffeting other universities. Enough people will be willing to continue paying top dollar for the Georgetown brand name on their diploma. That's assuming, of course, that the entire educational loan system doesn't collapse. $500 million of the new campaign is going to scholarships specifically to prevent this "the very rich and the very poor" stratification that Lizziebeth warns about.

At the end of the day, I think this campus is definitely an opportunity worth exploring and pursuing. There just aren't a lot of big tracts left inside the Beltway, and following GW's lead out to Ashburn or what have you strikes me as a much bigger departure from our roots, both geographically and philosophically.

Some college sports - field hockey, track, and tennis come to mind - just are not going to be big attendance draws, and they're not drawing any attendance to campus now as it is. Might as well try to find them a good, modern, University-owned home, co-located with a larger University presence.

I would love nothing more than for GWU to have to sell off Mount Vernon to us, but that ship has sailed (again, assuming the college loan system doesn't go kaboom). This may very well be the geographically closest realistic alternative to that.

[Problem of Dog]

Is there something preventing us from going in on a joint venture with the District to re-do the entire Duke Ellington Field/Track that is already used by Georgetown on a part time basis?

[RBHoya]

Oct 1, 2012 22:40:40 GMT -5 RusskyHoya said:

The Georgetown neighborhood groups would sooner chain themselves to McDonough than allow something like that to happen. The chances of any new facility getting built on campus that would host men's basketball at anything greater than the current frequency (once per year during a very off-peak time) is effectively zero.

I defer to your expertise on these types of things, and I generally stay away from all the ANC stuff on this board--mostly because it's so damn frustrating to me. But aren't we already zoned to have like 5K people or so on campus for a sporting event in (theoretically) completed MSF? We really do need something better for convocation, graduation and women's games, leaving men's hoops aside. I am not talking something Comcast Center-esque, I am thinking more of a renovated McDonough.... Once all the offices on either side of the gym are in the IAC, push back those 2 side walls and put in some legitimate seating going much higher in the gym... Something like that seems fairly basic but would at least give us some options, and really doesn't seem like a lot to ask for. But again I defer to your knowledge of just how ridiculous these people can be.

As far as the distance to Silver Spring I also think Lizziebeth's points are valid. And it's important for us to not just advocate this purchase because we botched a few other potential purchases in the past and don't want to look back with regret on yet another missed land grab. Need to evaluate the merits of this purchase on its own and there are definitely 2 sides to consider.

One other thing to think about.... this might sound kind of "far out" right now, but I think we could be in for a bit of a transportation revolution within the next few decades. These self-driving cars are being tested pretty heavily in Michigan now and are legally on the road in Cali. Combine that technology with the ubiquity of GPS technology and the rise of intelligent transportation systems, and I think some of our assumptions about getting from A to B may be pretty drastically altered in the years and decades to come. What is currently an arduous 30 minute (or more) bus ride each way out to Silver Spring may become a not-so-bad 10 or 15 minute trip each way. Again that's all theoretical at this time, but worth at least a thought IMO. If you're potentially making a purchase like this that you're going to hold onto for decades to come, you have to at least consider that some of the assumptions you're relying on now will be changing over that time. Trying to contemplate what those changes will be and what their consequences will be can drive you mad, but doing a good job of it makes all the difference in the world. Pretty safe to say that at many moments in its history, Georgetown has not fared particularly well in this department.

[nodak89]

Can we buy the Silver Spring property and swap it with the sisters for Visitation?

[HometownHoya]

I really hope we get this. A better (real) home for baseball and field hockey. A new home for tennis, including a mini-competition court/stadium/locker-rooms (does NCAA tennis only play on hard court?). The university has said that they would use the buildings as a conference space, plus I'm sure a few grad or SCS class could be held up there. Finally, the current owners (a trade school) still wishes to rent the space, or a partnership, so that would provide either income or a discount and I'm sure they would take care of much of the maintenance.

Yes campus is spreading out but the undergrad is still on main campus. The draw of our grad programs are the quality of the programs themselves and DC. The campus itself is more of an undergrad incentive, especially since majority of grad students don't live in University housing.

While I don't think this new location would become a new home to the hospital and med school, finding them a new home would be the next step in the next 30 years. Ideally, the DC government would help us start a new hospital in areas that need one (SE), enabling us to utilize the hospital and parking areas for more undergrad purposes (maybe a full fledged science department). I hope they'd keep the med-den buildings...I love their architecture.

[RusskyHoya]

Oct 2, 2012 18:14:35 GMT -5 Problem of Dog said:

Is there something preventing us from going in on a joint venture with the District to re-do the entire Duke Ellington Field/Track that is already used by Georgetown on a part time basis?

Nevada can correct me if I'm wrong, but I'm pretty sure that the footprint is too small to fit a regulation track+field.

Oct 2, 2012 23:14:49 GMT -5 RBHoya said:

I defer to your expertise on these types of things, and I generally stay away from all the ANC stuff on this board--mostly because it's so damn frustrating to me. But aren't we already zoned to have like 5K people or so on campus for a sporting event in (theoretically) completed MSF? We really do need something better for convocation, graduation and women's games, leaving men's hoops aside. I am not talking something Comcast Center-esque, I am thinking more of a renovated McDonough.... Once all the offices on either side of the gym are in the IAC, push back those 2 side walls and put in some legitimate seating going much higher in the gym... Something like that seems fairly basic but would at least give us some options, and really doesn't seem like a lot to ask for. But again I defer to your knowledge of just how ridiculous these people can be.

A renovated McDonough would fly. "Something better for convocation, graduation and women's games, leaving men's hoops aside" would fly. Something that would bring 10k people to Georgetown for a men's game would not fly; indeed, I'm pretty sure nothing that would expand the usage of the McDonough space beyond the current dead-of-December one/two games a year would stand a chance. And, honestly, I can see their point - adding a couple thousand cars to the Georgetown streets on a weeknight, or even a weekend, would be pretty nuts.

[CAHoya07]

Oct 3, 2012 22:38:02 GMT -5 RusskyHoya said:

Oct 2, 2012 18:14:35 GMT -5 Problem of Dog said:

Is there something preventing us from going in on a joint venture with the District to re-do the entire Duke Ellington Field/Track that is already used by Georgetown on a part time basis?

Nevada can correct me if I'm wrong, but I'm pretty sure that the footprint is too small to fit a regulation track+field.

I'll chime in as Nevada's long-time surrogate - this is correct.

I think this Silver Spring campus could prove to be useful, if we can use them in the right way. A baseball field, field hockey field, and regulation track that we could call all our own would be a great thing for three programs currently housed off-campus. The commute would be a bitch, but at the same time, these programs are already commuting.

Trading that land with Visitation? Ah, I love that idea, what a dream... but only a dream.

[DFW HOYA]

Did Georgetown miss...(um, "pass") on yet another real estate opportunity? The Washington Post reports that GU never sent in a formal bid on the National Labor College campus. A church is poised to take over the property.

www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/capital-business/post/national-labor-college-considering-sale-of-white-oak-campus-to-reid-temple-church-housing-group/2013/05/21/3b706f86-c258-11e2-914f-a7aba60512a7_blog.html