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Post by reformation on Apr 3, 2012 11:05:19 GMT -5
Recruits go where they can a) win, b) play in a program dedicated to excellence on and off the field (and that includes training and gametime experience), and c) get an education. Georgetown can offer a) and deliver c). A lot are delivering all three, and if the elite kids at Loyola, Gilman, Calvert Hall, etc. see that no progress is being made on and off the field, their absence on signing day has a cumulative effect. True, but I think you are overemphasizing the facilities factor in various programs success/lack of success. Its definitely a factor and speaks poorly of the Unversity generally in terms a a lack of focus on excellence, though there are a number of teams that share the same facilities and seem to consistently get very different results in both recruiting and on the field. Mens/Womens track, Mens/Womens lacrose, and the various rowing teams come to mind interms of programs sharing the same poor facilities but producing signicantly different recuiting and performance outcomes.
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RusskyHoya
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Post by RusskyHoya on Apr 3, 2012 13:14:54 GMT -5
A few thoughts: 2. TWF signed a five year extention in 2010, was then a candidate for Virginia in 2011, and left in 2012. That's not what you do when you get an extension, period, especially after GU stood by her through some poor teams from 2004-08. But it raises the issue of what led her to keep looking. Money? Did the training facility delays play a role? Or was it a case of leaving on top? The loss of seven seniors did not bode well fo the program in 12-13. Still, and it bears repearing, that's not what you do when you get an extension. "That's not what you do, period" eh? Need I remind you of: 5/1/2003
Georgetown University Director of Athletics Joseph Lang announced today that Head Men’s Basketball Coach Craig Esherick has agreed to a contract extension through the 2008-2009 season.
“This extension clearly indicates the University’s continuing commitment to Coach Esherick and his leadership of the program” said Mr. Lang. “Craig has averaged over 20 wins per season in his 4 full seasons as head coach, leading us to the sweet 16 and the NIT final. We are confident entrusting our program and our students playing men’s basketball to his care.”Contract extensions are a bargaining chip and inducement, not a blood oath. The days when a contract extension meant a mutual, long-lasting commitment between institution and individual are long gone. 3. What are the qualities sought in the candidates? Big East experience? A Georgetown connection, perhaps? Does Georgetown seek a mid-major candidate and give him or her time to rebuild on their schedule, not necessarily "NCAA or bust"? What suggests to you that any decision-maker at Georgetown views women's basketball through a "NCAA or bust" prism? For that matter, what suggests that they spend more than a minimal amount of time looking at women's basketball at all? It is to TWF's credit that the team's profile has been raised to the level that it has, but not so long ago it was an afterafterthought. 4. I don't think meant more to her program than any other coach--that mantle is still with Dave Urick. But it remains to be seen where the women's BB program goes from here and where Georgetown wants it to go. For all its considerable successes, there are still challenges. TWF never really expanded its base of support and the relationships with some in the women's basketball alumnae community were strained. Boith need to be priorities going forward. The Urick era is easing into its denouement like an old man into a nice warm bath. At this point, I have to think the real holder of that distinction is Ricky Fried, who was elected to a four-year term as the head coach of the U.S. Women's National Team. 5. Finally, I was always waiting for someone at GU to figure out that a women's/men's doubleheader at Verizon with UConn might have been the recipe to break that 20 year run of UConn wins. Probably won't happen, but let's appreciate what was accomplished. How much does renting Verizon for 8 hours cost?
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DFW HOYA
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Post by DFW HOYA on Apr 3, 2012 13:25:21 GMT -5
Not sure where all your quotes are leading. A quick response: 1. The issue on contract extensions was not directed at GU but TWF. Coaches that get a contract extension and then go out in the market is not a good strategy. 2. "NCAA or bust?" That's not where GU needs to go, which was my intent above. 3. Renting Verizon: Costs a lot, and an all-day commitment for GU is limited by commitments for Les Boulez or the Caps. I do not claim to know how much it would cost, but here is the price I found online for one non-profit in 2008: "Use of the Chinatown’s 23,000-seat Verizon Center could cost hundreds of thousands of dollars, according to Tasha Rios, a contracts manager for Plano, Texas-based Women of Faith. Rios’ group used the facility in July for a more than 12,000-person conference. Basic rent, she said, cost her organization about $200,000. But it varies by group size, she said, and does not include expenses for staff, security, medical services, insurance and add-ons like the use of giant display-screens."washingtonexaminer.com/local/2008/11/soaring-costs-inauguration-could-break-bank-dc/104212
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RusskyHoya
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Post by RusskyHoya on Apr 3, 2012 13:45:06 GMT -5
Recruits go where they can a) win, b) play in a program dedicated to excellence on and off the field (and that includes training and gametime experience), and c) get an education. Georgetown can offer a) and deliver c). A lot are delivering all three, and if the elite kids at Loyola, Gilman, Calvert Hall, etc. see that no progress is being made on and off the field, their absence on signing day has a cumulative effect. True, but I think you are overemphasizing the facilities factor in various programs success/lack of success. Its definitely a factor and speaks poorly of the Unversity generally in terms a a lack of focus on excellence, though there are a number of teams that share the same facilities and seem to consistently get very different results in both recruiting and on the field. Mens/Womens track, Mens/Womens lacrose, and the various rowing teams come to mind interms of programs sharing the same poor facilities but producing signicantly different recuiting and performance outcomes. I don't think DFW is overemphasizing it at all. Obviously some programs have performed better and managed to do more with less, but the signs are there nonetheless. Take your examples: Mens/Women's track - Lack of our own track and assorted facilities precludes us from doing much of anything in the field events. Our strong running tradition and coaching carries us. Running is, fortunately, not especially facility-intensive. NevadaHoya can correct me if I'm wrong, but wasn't Ron Helmer fairly explicit about the facilities issue being at the top of the list of reasons for why he left? Men's Lacrosse - Georgetown brought in a coach who won 10 consecutive national titles (at the DIII level, granted, but still) to build the program. The steadily decline we've seen over the last few years accompanies the investments made by other programs. There are other factors as well, of course, but it's hard to deny the effect of facilities. Women's Lacrosse - Hired one of the best coaches in the game, but as of yet unable to take the next step to truly elite level (I wonder why?). Continues to benefit from institutional reputation and legacy, but other programs both old (UPenn) and new (Florida) are starting to catch and overtake. Rowing - the oldest and most storied program at Georgetown is now middling at best (to use one metric, nowhere to be found in the national women's rowing rankings and #5 in the Mid-Atlantic region). Has been engaged in an effort to upgrade its facilities and build a new boathouse that will soon be described as "decades-long."
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RusskyHoya
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Post by RusskyHoya on Apr 3, 2012 13:58:20 GMT -5
Not sure where all your quotes are leading. A quick response: 1. The issue on contract extensions was not directed at GU but TWF. Coaches that get a contract extension and then go out in the market is not a good strategy. 2. "NCAA or bust?" That's not where GU needs to go, which was my intent above. 3. Renting Verizon: Costs a lot, and an all-day commitment for GU is limited by commitments for Les Boulez or the Caps. I do not claim to know how much it would cost, but here is the price I found online for one non-profit in 2008: "Use of the Chinatown’s 23,000-seat Verizon Center could cost hundreds of thousands of dollars, according to Tasha Rios, a contracts manager for Plano, Texas-based Women of Faith. Rios’ group used the facility in July for a more than 12,000-person conference. Basic rent, she said, cost her organization about $200,000. But it varies by group size, she said, and does not include expenses for staff, security, medical services, insurance and add-ons like the use of giant display-screens."washingtonexaminer.com/local/2008/11/soaring-costs-inauguration-could-break-bank-dc/104212Sorry if I was unclear: 1. My point was that if it's fine for GU to treat extensions as non-indicators of commitment, as the Esherick example shows, then I don't see why it should be any different for the coaches. 2. I was merely making the point that as best I can tell, and given the program's history, no one in the leadership has ever cared enough about WBB to adopt a "NCAA or bust" attitude. 3. Going with those figures - is a marginal improvement in the relatively low odds of defeating UConn in women's basketball worth 6 figures? Who's going to argue for that?
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CAHoya07
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Post by CAHoya07 on Apr 3, 2012 15:06:55 GMT -5
I'll be optimistic - seeing our track record over the last few seasons (3 NCAA's and a Sweet 16), one of the best players in the country coming back for her senior season (Sugar Rodgers), our name brand recognition in hoops, and hopefully the plans for the IAC in the works, couldn't this be an attractive gig for a young, up and coming women's coach?
And of course, thanks, Coach Flo. Definitely raised the bar here.
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Post by reformation on Apr 3, 2012 16:01:53 GMT -5
True, but I think you are overemphasizing the facilities factor in various programs success/lack of success. Its definitely a factor and speaks poorly of the Unversity generally in terms a a lack of focus on excellence, though there are a number of teams that share the same facilities and seem to consistently get very different results in both recruiting and on the field. Mens/Womens track, Mens/Womens lacrose, and the various rowing teams come to mind interms of programs sharing the same poor facilities but producing signicantly different recuiting and performance outcomes. I don't think DFW is overemphasizing it at all. Obviously some programs have performed better and managed to do more with less, but the signs are there nonetheless. Take your examples: Mens/Women's track - Lack of our own track and assorted facilities precludes us from doing much of anything in the field events. Our strong running tradition and coaching carries us. Running is, fortunately, not especially facility-intensive. NevadaHoya can correct me if I'm wrong, but wasn't Ron Helmer fairly explicit about the facilities issue being at the top of the list of reasons for why he left? Men's Lacrosse - Georgetown brought in a coach who won 10 consecutive national titles (at the DIII level, granted, but still) to build the program. The steadily decline we've seen over the last few years accompanies the investments made by other programs. There are other factors as well, of course, but it's hard to deny the effect of facilities. Women's Lacrosse - Hired one of the best coaches in the game, but as of yet unable to take the next step to truly elite level (I wonder why?). Continues to benefit from institutional reputation and legacy, but other programs both old (UPenn) and new (Florida) are starting to catch and overtake. Rowing - the oldest and most storied program at Georgetown is now middling at best (to use one metric, nowhere to be found in the national women's rowing rankings and #5 in the Mid-Atlantic region). Has been engaged in an effort to upgrade its facilities and build a new boathouse that will soon be described as "decades-long."
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Nevada Hoya
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Post by Nevada Hoya on Apr 3, 2012 16:04:26 GMT -5
Mens/Women's track - Lack of our own track and assorted facilities precludes us from doing much of anything in the field events. Our strong running tradition and coaching carries us. Running is, fortunately, not especially facility-intensive. NevadaHoya can correct me if I'm wrong, but wasn't Ron Helmer fairly explicit about the facilities issue being at the top of the list of reasons for why he left? Partially. Another major factor was his daily commute. Of course, Indiana, where he is now, has very good facilities.
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Post by reformation on Apr 3, 2012 19:52:48 GMT -5
True, but I think you are overemphasizing the facilities factor in various programs success/lack of success. Its definitely a factor and speaks poorly of the Unversity generally in terms a a lack of focus on excellence, though there are a number of teams that share the same facilities and seem to consistently get very different results in both recruiting and on the field. Mens/Womens track, Mens/Womens lacrose, and the various rowing teams come to mind interms of programs sharing the same poor facilities but producing signicantly different recuiting and performance outcomes. I don't think DFW is overemphasizing it at all. Obviously some programs have performed better and managed to do more with less, but the signs are there nonetheless. Take your examples: Mens/Women's track - Lack of our own track and assorted facilities precludes us from doing much of anything in the field events. Our strong running tradition and coaching carries us. Running is, fortunately, not especially facility-intensive. NevadaHoya can correct me if I'm wrong, but wasn't Ron Helmer fairly explicit about the facilities issue being at the top of the list of reasons for why he left? Men's Lacrosse - Georgetown brought in a coach who won 10 consecutive national titles (at the DIII level, granted, but still) to build the program. The steadily decline we've seen over the last few years accompanies the investments made by other programs. There are other factors as well, of course, but it's hard to deny the effect of facilities. Women's Lacrosse - Hired one of the best coaches in the game, but as of yet unable to take the next step to truly elite level (I wonder why?). Continues to benefit from institutional reputation and legacy, but other programs both old (UPenn) and new (Florida) are starting to catch and overtake. Rowing - the oldest and most storied program at Georgetown is now middling at best (to use one metric, nowhere to be found in the national women's rowing rankings and #5 in the Mid-Atlantic region). Has been engaged in an effort to upgrade its facilities and build a new boathouse that will soon be described as "decades-long." I don't think I was clear in previous post: The point I was trying to make by naming the sports that share the same facilities was that the facilities vs coaching vs other factors can play varying roles in each sport's success. For instance mens and women's track share the same facilities but have performed very differently over the past several years as the women are definitely an elite distance/mid distance program, while the men have been steadily declining. The women are actually doing better since Helmer left. What's the difference, probably a lot of things including recruiting strategy, probably coaching and a bit of luck too! For lax the men have slipped a lot, the women a little. both of the men's and womens games are more competitive now, so its not surprising that the that our teams will have less consistent results. The women still get high elite recruis competitive with the top 5 programs year after year while the men no longer do. This disparity would seem to owe more to overall competitive balance across the country + the mens team disappointments on the field producing results from its perenially highly ranked recruits. Re: rowing, the squads again share the same boathouse but have very different success levels. the lightweight men are an elite squad and can compete for a natl championship. The women are not competitive on the natl scene and the heavyweight men are somewhere in the middle. The biggest issue the women have is lack of scholarships which are prevalent in their league but not on the men' side. Facilities are poor but we could certainly field a nationally competitive women's squad with full scholarships. Gtwn tends to spread its resources evenly around a lot of programs more driven by historical funding levels than current prospects-it also tends to have low expectations for all but a few programs with most coaching positions effectively coaches for life. Yes facilities are a major issue that permeates all programs, but it not the only or even the most impt factor in many sports issues with competing at the highest level.
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lichoya68
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Post by lichoya68 on Apr 3, 2012 22:11:46 GMT -5
must build it BUT i thinks the most important things for succes defined in MORE than only wins is the kids we get student athletes.. the coaches their hard work. and we MUST BUILD THAT THINGY to show we support all that and can continue to compete nationally in alot of sports. gimme our kids and coaches anyday but must give them the financial support also to continue to build and succeed .just my thoughts . ps i wish that coach flo had not said I buildt this program She led that very well but also the sweat and tears of her kids and assistant coaches adn ALL the support staff in mcdonough wish shed acknowledged that just some go hoyas move move move and move on.
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DanMcQ
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Post by DanMcQ on Apr 3, 2012 22:13:11 GMT -5
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whatmaroon
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Post by whatmaroon on Apr 3, 2012 22:26:57 GMT -5
Excerpt from her response to a question about facilities: "When I walked through the locker room last night the girls gave me the grand tour and I thought ‘Oh my God this is unbelievable.’ I’m thinking to myself ‘I just walked into a gold mine’ and then just the construction that’s going on, so more building and more building. That’s just more notches to put into my recruiting bonus to sell, so I don’t think it’s going to be hard to sell Auburn University and the facilities and the people here at Auburn." I don't know whether to laugh or cry, but either way it's depressing.
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skyhoya
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Post by skyhoya on Apr 4, 2012 6:06:35 GMT -5
a land locked city school will never invest in the facilities to make Georgetown competitive with top level schools in athletics, just keep the academics top notch.
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DanMcQ
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Post by DanMcQ on Apr 4, 2012 6:28:36 GMT -5
Auburn is on the ocean? Who knew?
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Post by fsohoya on Apr 4, 2012 7:01:41 GMT -5
It's disappointing to hear TWF dumping on GU. Why belittle us? Why not just be positive about Auburn? And I don't follow women's hoops much, but I can't tell that Auburn is such a huge step up. They look to get about 2,300 a game -- better than GU, but probably not proportional to the size of the school. And they had a losing record.
I absolutely get the facilities problem, and I think it's true that a private, urban school like GU will never have sports facilities like a giant public school in a football-crazed state like Alabama. And it seems to me that the insane process it takes to get a building approved for GU's own campus should make everyone a raving libertarian, at least when it comes to local government. But TWF ought to avoid attacking the school she just left, just out of common decency.
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hoyainspirit
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Post by hoyainspirit on Apr 4, 2012 7:23:59 GMT -5
I did not read her comments as an attack on GU.
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DanMcQ
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Post by DanMcQ on Apr 4, 2012 8:32:34 GMT -5
I did not read her comments as an attack on GU. Me neither. Like it or not, in womens college basketball this is a step-up job for her regardless of facilities.
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lichoya68
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Post by lichoya68 on Apr 4, 2012 8:42:31 GMT -5
Not sure except for facilities this is a step up. we were ranked and went to ncaas ALOT and we play in maybe the best overall womens bball league. uconn nd rutgers west va. they had like six or seven ranked all year. AND last year we beat maryland at maryland and ALMOST BEAT UCONN had em till the end in the ncaas so better program and league not so sure but it is what it is.. go hoyas good luck to here but time to move move move and move on. -ps as one friend said the womens bball banquet on april 15th should be interesting.
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kchoya
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Post by kchoya on Apr 4, 2012 9:23:06 GMT -5
I did not read her comments as an attack on GU. Me neither. Like it or not, in womens college basketball this is a step-up job for her regardless of facilities. Other than facilities, what makes this a step-up job? The SEC is not a better womens basketball conference. Auburn hasn't been to the tourney in several years. The recruiting grounds aren't any better in Alabama. The fan support is a whopping 2,300 per game.
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DanMcQ
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Post by DanMcQ on Apr 4, 2012 9:35:29 GMT -5
Disagree - the SEC has been a better womens basketball conference for longer than the Big East. I'd say they are about the same level now, but as I posted earlier in this thread, the major impediment to winning the SEC (Pat Summitt) will soon no longer be there. UConn and ND show no signs of letting up in the Big East.
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