kchoya
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Post by kchoya on Apr 2, 2012 11:38:27 GMT -5
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derhoya
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Post by derhoya on Apr 2, 2012 12:56:56 GMT -5
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Post by AustinHoya03 on Apr 2, 2012 15:11:14 GMT -5
[/a][/u][/quote] I disagree with Keller. As the column points out, fact-finders are routinely asked to investigate the defendant's thoughts during the course of a criminal prosecution. Keller argues that a distinction can be drawn between deciding to pull a trigger (which is a voluntary thought) and thinking bigoted thoughts (which is apparently involuntary). First of all, if all I do is combine bigoted thoughts with pulling a trigger, I should never be charged with a hate crime. If I catch you burglarizing my home, and I shoot you in the back on a public street as you are running away, and as I do so I think to myself "I'm going to waste this redneck honky piece of trash," I have not committed a hate crime. But that's what Keller pretends that hate crime legislation criminalizes. Instead, under most hate crime statutes, an individual must -- in a premeditated fashion -- select a victim or his property as the target of his crime based on race or another listed factor. For example, the hate crime statute in my state reads: "the trier of fact [must determine] beyond a reasonable doubt that the defendant intentionally selected the person against whom the offense was committed or intentionally selected property damaged or affected as a result of the offense because of the defendant's bias or prejudice against a group identified by race, color, disability, religion, national origin or ancestry, age, gender, or sexual preference." It is also not entirely uncommon for fact-finders to be required to inquire into a defendant's specific thoughts. For example, let's say I have a vacation home in Texas. Let's say I over-insure it and burn it down in order to collect insurance money. I get charged with arson, plead not guilty, and ask for a jury trial. Under the state arson statute, the jury may be asked to decide whether I knew the property was insured against damage or destruction when I set it on fire. Now let's tweak that a little bit. Would an increased penalty for an affirmative finding (supported by proof beyond a reasonable doubt) that such knowledge was the reason I committed the criminal act, based on the generally-agreed-upon idea that blowing Edited up for insurance money is bad for society, be as repugnant to Keller? Or would that be a "thought police" law as well? The other thing Keller does that irks me: he claims that elderly people and children are unprotected by hate crime laws. See the statute quoted above, Bill. Additionally, there are plenty of separate criminal offenses in many states which criminalize the harming of elderly people or children. Keller appears to support such laws, but at the same time, the logic he employs indicates that he should oppose them. Also, this column is more cable-news journalism than thoughtful, in my opinion. Some idiot somewhere said that this is probably a hate crime and Zimmerman should be charged with one. It could be, but it probably isn't. And as you have ably pointed out, many, many facts remain unknown, so we have no way of knowing. But someone said it, so Bill Keller has to respond to it as if it's true, and now the B&G board will plunge into yet another tired discussion of hate crime legislation. I'll probably even get called a liberal again. Personally, I think hate crime statutes are unnecessary if you allow a fact-finder to hear evidence of bias and allow sufficient discretion in punishment ranges. In fact, that would probably be more effective in combating bigotry, since hate crime statutes are narrowly written and rarely used as a result. However, I don't think hate crime statutes are as different or unique as opponents make them out to be when compared with other criminal laws. PS: The link to the column appears to be broken. Here's another: www.nytimes.com/2012/04/02/opinion/keller-tyler-and-trayvon.html
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Elvado
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Post by Elvado on Apr 5, 2012 4:51:35 GMT -5
In what certainly qualifies as a shocking development, after two weeks of Revernd Tracksuit's presence in Sanford, Florida, two 18 year old youths beat a man with a hammer and left his body in the woods. Where Tracksuit appears, violence is never far behind. As of yet, Reverend Tracksuit has not called out for justice for the victim of this crime. Of course, he has been busy visiting the White House.
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sead43
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Post by sead43 on Apr 11, 2012 14:54:10 GMT -5
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Elvado
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Post by Elvado on Apr 12, 2012 8:40:52 GMT -5
With criminal charges now filed, perhaps Rev. Tracksuit can find a new location to agitate. I will be curious to see where this case tries and how a jury without preconceptions of this case can be found.
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Boz
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Post by Boz on Apr 12, 2012 11:29:15 GMT -5
A couple of points, one that may be contentious, one that I hope is not:
1. I am happy that the justice process is moving forward, as I hope everyone is. I was a little surprised at the murder 2 charge, like I think a lot of people were, I think many were expecting it to be manslaughter, but the prosecutor knows best here and I don't think she seems like the type who would be pressured to up the charge on peripheral concerns not based on the evidence.
But to follow up on the note above, because of all the national attention, which can most certainly be a double edged sword, how is the matter of finding a fair and impartial jury best determined? And because of that challenge, does this make the prosecution's case more difficult than it would be otherwise? Honestly asking for the opinions of the attorneys around here. (And this will be the only time I ever ask an opinion of an attorney when not required to, so savor it, you vultures).
2. With Zimmerman now arrested, charged and facing prosecution, it really would be pretty nice if we could get some charges filed against those who put a bounty out on his head. As I am fairly certain this is a violation of some law or another. Have the President or the Attorney General spoken out about this issue yet? And where did all of those crickets come from just now?
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hoyainspirit
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Post by hoyainspirit on Apr 12, 2012 13:52:34 GMT -5
FWIW, I think that NBP bounty crap is outrageous, and brings zero to the table. The original Black Panthers want nothing to do with this group. I hope the media does not give them a platform to spout racist rhetoric. Fortunately, their numbers are small. Elvado, you want something to rail against? There you go. A much more deserving target than Sharpton.
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Elvado
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Post by Elvado on Apr 12, 2012 15:58:19 GMT -5
There is never a more deserving target than Rev. Tracksuit. When he apologizes to Steven Pagones for the vile slander and destruction of his career, he will leave his perch on top of my personal crap list.
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Post by strummer8526 on Apr 12, 2012 18:52:18 GMT -5
There is never a more deserving target than Rev. Tracksuit. When he apologizes to Steven Pagones for the vile slander and destruction of his career, he will leave his perch on top of my personal crap list. Assistant AG for the state of NY (http://www.linkedin.com/pub/steven-pagones-esq-pps/14/552/452). That's not a bad for a "destroyed" career.
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Elvado
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Post by Elvado on Apr 13, 2012 4:24:53 GMT -5
So his ability to work hard after that fat slob defamed him makes it okay? Rev. Tracksuit purposefully and maliciously defamed this man to perpetrate th Brawley hoax, neve paid the civil judgment rendered against him and has skipped off to agitate around the country. There's that personal responsibility thing again....
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Post by hoyawatcher on Apr 13, 2012 8:34:10 GMT -5
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kchoya
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Post by kchoya on Apr 20, 2012 8:06:27 GMT -5
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Post by Problem of Dog on Apr 24, 2012 2:26:40 GMT -5
Reverend Al is in this for Reverend Al only. Whethe 10 daysor 25 years ago, he is a race-baiting charlatan who beongs in prison and hell. Once again, you demonstrate front and center why it is IMPOSSIBLE to have any sympathy for the internet persona that you present on this board.
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Elvado
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Post by Elvado on Apr 24, 2012 7:22:14 GMT -5
How ever will I sleep tonight?
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kchoya
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Post by kchoya on Apr 24, 2012 14:35:03 GMT -5
Reverend Al is in this for Reverend Al only. Whethe 10 daysor 25 years ago, he is a race-baiting charlatan who beongs in prison and hell. Once again, you demonstrate front and center why it is IMPOSSIBLE to have any sympathy for the internet persona that you present on this board. Someone is a slow reader. I can't believe anyone would support Rev. Al at this point. The guy is a total clown.
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Post by Problem of Dog on Apr 24, 2012 14:59:15 GMT -5
Once again, you demonstrate front and center why it is IMPOSSIBLE to have any sympathy for the internet persona that you present on this board. Someone is a slow reader. I can't believe anyone would support Rev. Al at this point. The guy is a total clown. There are clowns and there are people going to hell. I don't think it takes a venn diagram to figure out which people are in which category. Elvado is nothing but a troll using his son as an excuse for why he's not a troll.
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Boz
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Post by Boz on Apr 24, 2012 15:21:05 GMT -5
While I can concur that it is no one's place on this board to determine who does and does not belong in hell -- as that post is already occupied (at least I think it is, not entirely sure) -- let's leave people's kids out of this discussion, yeah?
You can disagree with anyone or call them names. I have no problem with that. To suggest that someone us "using" their child for the purpose you describe is flat out despicable.
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kchoya
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Post by kchoya on Apr 24, 2012 15:24:54 GMT -5
To suggest that someone us "using" their child for the purpose you describe is flat out despicable. That's something the Rev. Al would do.
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Elvado
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Post by Elvado on Apr 24, 2012 15:41:50 GMT -5
Someone is a slow reader. I can't believe anyone would support Rev. Al at this point. The guy is a total clown. There are clowns and there are people going to hell. I don't think it takes a venn diagram to figure out which people are in which category. Elvado is nothing but a troll using his son as an excuse for why he's not a troll. You have reached a new and unbeatable low. I hope you never have the opportunity to use your child as I have mine. I now place you on the ignore list forever. You have taken the political and made it viciously personal. Congratulations. well done sir.
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