sead43
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Post by sead43 on Mar 25, 2012 13:01:18 GMT -5
thought i'd get some discussion going on this tragedy which doesn't seem like it'll be leaving the headlines anytime soon. i'm no lawyer (and i know those on the board will be able to help me out) but seems to me that if Zimmerman initiated the confrontation that led to Martin's death, as all accounts seem to indicate, he's got to be responsible for at least something like manslaughter, if not full-blown murder, even with Florida's apparently broad Stand Your Ground law. am i missing something?
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kchoya
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Post by kchoya on Mar 25, 2012 16:05:52 GMT -5
thought i'd get some discussion going on this tragedy which doesn't seem like it'll be leaving the headlines anytime soon. i'm no lawyer (and i know those on the board will be able to help me out) but seems to me that if Zimmerman initiated the confrontation that led to Martin's death, as all accounts seem to indicate, he's got to be responsible for at least something like manslaughter, if not full-blown murder, even with Florida's apparently broad Stand Your Ground law. am i missing something? Seems like there are a lot of details yet to come out. Of course, that has not stopped a lot of people calling for the shooter to be locked away for life (or worse). Also, I'm not sure what Florida law is with respect to being able to walk away and regain the self-defense defense after initiating/escalating the confrontation, which may or may not have happened in this case.
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nathanhm
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Post by nathanhm on Mar 25, 2012 16:15:48 GMT -5
Not sure what details need to come out. Zimmerman was armed and chased down a younger smaller man and shot him in the chest.
A skinny 17 year old kid is not going to attack a much larger guy that was chasing him, he's already told his girlfriend he was trying to get away.
And for anyone who says this isnt about race lookup the history of the word coon then get back to me.
This was murder the only question is, was it premeditated?
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kchoya
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Post by kchoya on Mar 25, 2012 16:40:27 GMT -5
Not sure what details need to come out. Zimmerman was armed and chased down a younger smaller man and shot him in the chest. A skinny 17 year old kid is not going to attack a much larger guy that was chasing him, he's already told his girlfriend he was trying to get away. And for anyone who says this isnt about race lookup the history of the word coon then get back to me. This was murder the only question is, was it premeditated? Glad you know everything that happened. Didn't know you were present at the scene.
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nathanhm
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Post by nathanhm on Mar 25, 2012 17:29:56 GMT -5
Not sure what details need to come out. Zimmerman was armed and chased down a younger smaller man and shot him in the chest. A skinny 17 year old kid is not going to attack a much larger guy that was chasing him, he's already told his girlfriend he was trying to get away. And for anyone who says this isnt about race lookup the history of the word coon then get back to me. This was murder the only question is, was it premeditated? Glad you know everything that happened. Didn't know you were present at the scene. . Tell me what I said that was factually incorrect. Zimmerman was larger than Martin. Martin was unarmed. Zimmerman shot Martin the in chest. Zimmerman went looking for Martin. Zimmerman was told to stand down by 911. Zimmerman was previously arrested and got violent with the police during his arrest. Martin was on the phone when Zimmerman approached him. Martin had no criminal record and no history of violence. Zimmerman referred to Martin as an Edited and coon on the phone to 911.
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kchoya
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Post by kchoya on Mar 25, 2012 17:52:22 GMT -5
Glad you know everything that happened. Didn't know you were present at the scene. . Tell me what I said that was factually incorrect. Zimmerman was larger than Martin. Martin was unarmed. Zimmerman shot Martin the in chest. Zimmerman went looking for Martin. Zimmerman was told to stand down by 911. Zimmerman was previously arrested and got violent with the police during his arrest. Martin was on the phone when Zimmerman approached him. Martin had no criminal record and no history of violence. Zimmerman referred to Martin as an Edited and coon on the phone to 911. We don't know if he chased him down. We don't know if Martin attacked Zimmerman. We don't know if he said coon. We don't know a lot of things. Why the rush to convict and hang the guy?
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nathanhm
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Post by nathanhm on Mar 25, 2012 18:24:19 GMT -5
. Tell me what I said that was factually incorrect. Zimmerman was larger than Martin. Martin was unarmed. Zimmerman shot Martin the in chest. Zimmerman went looking for Martin. Zimmerman was told to stand down by 911. Zimmerman was previously arrested and got violent with the police during his arrest. Martin was on the phone when Zimmerman approached him. Martin had no criminal record and no history of violence. Zimmerman referred to Martin as an Edited and coon on the phone to 911. We don't know if he chased him down. We don't know if Martin attacked Zimmerman. We don't know if he said coon. We don't know a lot of things. Why the rush to convict and hang the guy? . Zimmerman said he went after Martin. You can listen to the tape and hear the coon comment. As for Martin attacking Zimmerman, let's play that game. Why did he fear for his life when a skinny 17 year old kid armed with a bottle of ice tea and skittles make him fear for his life? Because the stand your ground law says you have to fear for your life. Finally two of the authors of the legislation said once Zimmerman told the 911 operator he was going to follow Martin the stand your ground law no longer protected him. Since the Sanford PD has stated no arrest was made because of the law, there is a huge disconnect between his actions and the law. And I'm not trying to convict the guy, that's a DAs job, I like most reasonable people think he should be arrested.
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kchoya
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Post by kchoya on Mar 25, 2012 18:29:57 GMT -5
We don't know if he chased him down. We don't know if Martin attacked Zimmerman. We don't know if he said coon. We don't know a lot of things. Why the rush to convict and hang the guy? . You can listen to the tape and hear the coon comment. Um, no you can't.
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nathanhm
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Post by nathanhm on Mar 25, 2012 19:07:38 GMT -5
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hoyainspirit
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Post by hoyainspirit on Mar 26, 2012 5:32:31 GMT -5
It's a tragic situation for both Zimmerman, and Martin's family. Zimmerman's life is needlessly ruined, and Martin's parents had to bury a child, without a doubt the worst thing that can happen to a parent. While I feel sorry for all involved, Zimmerman likely will pay with many years in jail, as he probably should. You just can't go around killing unarmed kids because they look suspicious, to you. In effect, that's what happened. Two lives ruined, needlessly. It's difficult for me to watch this story....
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Elvado
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Post by Elvado on Mar 26, 2012 7:26:07 GMT -5
This horrible story is only made worse by the presence (physical and otherwise) of the usual bloodsuckers like Sharpton and Farrakhan.
This case calls out for many things, none of which those two have any interest in seeing accomplished...
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Post by strummer8526 on Mar 26, 2012 8:42:50 GMT -5
This horrible story is only made worse by the presence (physical and otherwise) of the usual bloodsuckers like Sharpton and Farrakhan. This case calls out for many things, none of which those two have any interest in seeing accomplished... I don't know. Sharpton has been pretty consistent in his efforts to get people to stop shooting black kids for no reason. He can be annoying, but I don't doubt that he really does want to see that accomplished.
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Elvado
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Post by Elvado on Mar 26, 2012 8:51:24 GMT -5
This horrible story is only made worse by the presence (physical and otherwise) of the usual bloodsuckers like Sharpton and Farrakhan. This case calls out for many things, none of which those two have any interest in seeing accomplished... I don't know. Sharpton has been pretty consistent in his efforts to get people to stop shooting black kids for no reason. He can be annoying, but I don't doubt that he really does want to see that accomplished. Ask Steve Pagones about the sincerity of Al Shaprton.
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kchoya
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Post by kchoya on Mar 26, 2012 9:07:06 GMT -5
It's a tragic situation for both Zimmerman, and Martin's family. Zimmerman's life is needlessly ruined, and Martin's parents had to bury a child, without a doubt the worst thing that can happen to a parent. While I feel sorry for all involved, Zimmerman likely will pay with many years in jail, as he probably should. You just can't go around killing unarmed kids because they look suspicious, to you. In effect, that's what happened. Two lives ruined, needlessly. It's difficult for me to watch this story.... I think everyone can agree with most of that. The statement that "You just can't go around killing unarmed kids because they look suspicious, to you" is the only part where everyone needs more facts to determine if that is what really happened. However, I'm still confused as to why we're wading into a local law enforcement matter.
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kchoya
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Post by kchoya on Mar 26, 2012 9:08:16 GMT -5
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TBird41
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Post by TBird41 on Mar 26, 2012 9:36:39 GMT -5
It's a tragic situation for both Zimmerman, and Martin's family. Zimmerman's life is needlessly ruined, and Martin's parents had to bury a child, without a doubt the worst thing that can happen to a parent. While I feel sorry for all involved, Zimmerman likely will pay with many years in jail, as he probably should. You just can't go around killing unarmed kids because they look suspicious, to you. In effect, that's what happened. Two lives ruined, needlessly. It's difficult for me to watch this story.... I think everyone can agree with most of that. The statement that "You just can't go around killing unarmed kids because they look suspicious, to you" is the only part where everyone needs more facts to determine if that is what really happened. However, I'm still confused as to why we're wading into a local law enforcement matter. This. The initial pressure from the national level may have been useful to ensure the matter got a fair look from local law authorities, but is there any doubt that the more national attention it gets, the less likely justice will be done and the more likely this will turn into a ridiculous media circus exploited by everyone that has any opportunity to (See, e.g., the Duke Lacrosse scandal)? It sounds like Zimmerman initiated a conflict that led to his killing Martin, which means that there was no implication of the "Stand your Ground" law. That's my impression. That seems to be enough to lead to a police investigation and prosecution, which should be able to figure out whether my impression is the correct one. That seems to be happening now, so lets turn off the glare of national media that makes prosecutors start thinking about running for national office and that leads to every national politician and political figure to get involved.
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Boz
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Post by Boz on Mar 26, 2012 10:08:40 GMT -5
Without trying to make too many assumptions, what seems fairly obvious is that the local police completely bungled the initial investigation. I am not in any kind of position to ascribe any motive for that bungling, if one exists. But screw the pooch they did.
If not for that, I don't think we are where we are today. And that is sad. Because I think TBird is right. I find it less and less likely that the whole truth will be discovered the more the media circus grows.
I also find it refreshing to note that Geraldo Rivera has used this situation to remind the nation that he is a complete moron. Gee, thanks for that, Gerry. Hadn't heard anything quite so stupid from you in a while, not since you gave away US military positions on television.
I like my hoodie, you complete dolt.
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kchoya
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Post by kchoya on Mar 26, 2012 13:38:07 GMT -5
God forbid we wait for facts to be developed: gma.yahoo.com/trayvon-martin-shooter-told-cops-teenager-went-gun-030349812--abc-news.htmlIf we didn't rush to judgment, maybe we wouldn't make statements like: - Why did he fear for his life when a skinny 17 year old kid armed with a bottle of ice tea and skittles make him fear for his life
- Martin had no criminal record and no history of violence.
- what seems fairly obvious is that the local police completely bungled the initial investigation.
I'm not saying Zimmerman is innocent, or that he shouldn't be charged with something. However, let's see what additional information comes out before summarily convicting ____ [fill-in-the-blank].
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hoyainspirit
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Post by hoyainspirit on Mar 26, 2012 13:53:20 GMT -5
Without trying to make too many assumptions, what seems fairly obvious is that the local police completely bungled the initial investigation. I am not in any kind of position to ascribe any motive for that bungling, if one exists. But screw the pooch they did. If not for that, I don't think we are where we are today. And that is sad. Because I think TBird is right. I find it less and less likely that the whole truth will be discovered the more the media circus grows. I also find it refreshing to note that Geraldo Rivera has used this situation to remind the nation that he is a complete moron. Gee, thanks for that, Gerry. Hadn't heard anything quite so stupid from you in a while, not since you gave away US military positions on television. I like my hoodie, you complete dolt. +1, except on the media circus part. The locals did completely screw up the initial investigation. As Tbird pointed out, were it not for the attention brought by national coverage, the probability is high that nothing would have been done, which is unconscionable, especially given the existing poor relationship between the police and blacks in Sanford. While I agree that, obviously, we must wait until all the facts in the case come to light, the facts which have come to light thus far fuels people's outrage. nathanhm has it right, imo. And in general, I like it when Sharpton gets involved. You know the pressure will be on. Finally, unfortunately, a few years before Katrina, I was invited to a party by a friend. This gentleman, about 6'2" and a good 250 lbs, who turned out to be her brother, was also walking toward the house, coming from the opposite direction. He turned into the yard of my friend's house, and maybe five seconds later, so did I. He turned and attacked me. Caught me completely off guard, not that it would have mattered, since he was twice my size. It never occurred to him that a black person was actually coming to the party. I had to be up to no good, just because I was black. Needless to say, the incident put a downer on everyone in attendance. He was extremely apologetic. When this is one's perspective, perhaps people can better understand the outrage. Edit: Police: Zimmerman says Trayvon Martin attacked him
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nathanhm
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Post by nathanhm on Mar 26, 2012 14:33:03 GMT -5
God forbid we wait for facts to be developed: gma.yahoo.com/trayvon-martin-shooter-told-cops-teenager-went-gun-030349812--abc-news.htmlIf we didn't rush to judgment, maybe we wouldn't make statements like: - Why did he fear for his life when a skinny 17 year old kid armed with a bottle of ice tea and skittles make him fear for his life
- Martin had no criminal record and no history of violence.
- what seems fairly obvious is that the local police completely bungled the initial investigation.
I'm not saying Zimmerman is innocent, or that he shouldn't be charged with something. However, let's see what additional information comes out before summarily convicting ____ [fill-in-the-blank]. No one is saying convict the guy. You just keep saying stop convicting the guy. Most people, his family included, want to know why he wasn't arrested for shooting an unarmed boy to death. Mistakes were made during the investigation so much so that the the police chief has partially stepped down, and both the state and federal govt are getting involved. I clearly said convicting him is up to the DA, but how is actions didn't warrant being arrested doesn't add up. This whole thing would have been avoided if Zimmerman doesn't do his best rent a cop routine and ignore Neighborhood Watch protocol, and the 9-1-1 operator's instructions. There is a reason vigilantism is illegal in the US. Police are trained to manage situations and having a uniform gives them the authority to get involved in people's business.
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