SFHoya99
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Post by SFHoya99 on Mar 18, 2012 22:33:37 GMT -5
If you see in the sophs and below two future NBA lottery picks and a junior guard the caliber of Jon Wallace, There weren't two lottery picks on the roster. Roy went #17. We can argue that he should have gone higher but he didn't. Period. Can't rewrite history just to make an argument. Next back during the freshmen season for Jeff, Roy and Jon most people weren't even sure if we had one sure "bonafide NBA starter" (as Mike Wise put it) let alone two. Jeff was good but he wasn't blowing up on any of the draft boards until midway through his junior season. The point? We can't say for sure how good these current players will get. The complete narrative for guys like Otto, Greg, Mikael, Jabril, Tyler, Hollis (possibly), etc. hasn't been determined yet. These guys have a talent athletic ability and determination. You include work ethic and some day they may make folks eat their words. Happens all the time in college basketball. Guys whom you didn't see much of or think much of in their first seasons go on to become great players, many of whom get drafted. Not many folks on this board thought Roy would ever be an NBA first round pick, let alone a starter. Last of all stop the revisionism of Jon Wallace. Jon wasn't winning games for us in the NCAA tournament when he was a sophmore. It took time for him to become this apparently legendary figure amongst Hoya faithful. Truth is some folks back then (during his soph season) made mention that the Hoyas would need an upgrade. Jon was a heady player with a fantastic three-point stroke when he was left unguarded, but he had not at that time even come close to proving that he was a great Hoya or would be a great Hoya in the future. +1. Great Hoyas, all, but as you point out, people forget that: - There were still lingering doubts about Roy until even the end of his sophomore year. - Jeff suffered though a sophomore slump (though he was hardly bad) - People were looking for recruits to take Wallace's job all the way through his senior season. The untold story of that class was their work ethic. Yes, Roy and Jeff had great potential, but more importantly, all of them -- from Roy to Jeff to Tyler to Jon to transfer in Pat -- all worked their butts off to get better. I have the feeling that Jabril and Otto and Greg and the rest of the crew are willing to work.
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EtomicB
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Post by EtomicB on Mar 18, 2012 22:36:14 GMT -5
What was inexcusable was giving up those three offensive rebounds off them missed FTs. That killed us. Who blew their assignment on those 3 plays? The 1st one where Williams scored was on Mikael The 2nd one was on either Otto or Greg, neither took the shooter Leslie which allowed the long rebound to come right back to him. Not sure on the 3rd
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jagtrader
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Post by jagtrader on Mar 18, 2012 22:47:54 GMT -5
There's a difference between lamenting the fact the Hoyas played without their most important player for 19 minutes and blaming the refs for the loss. They should have played better. They could have won. They didn't. So it goes.
That said, every time a defender throws his hips into a big man and flops onto his back, it doesn't have to be a charge. It can be let go. Then maybe teams will play defense instead of flopping all the time. A big man vertically challenging a shot near the rim doesn't have to be a foul when a small player is forcing the contact. It can be let go. This is why guys flop instead of defending.
You know what happens when those fouls are let go? The best players stay on the court. You know what happens then? We get to see which team is actually better.
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Big Dog
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Post by Big Dog on Mar 18, 2012 22:52:24 GMT -5
If you see in the sophs and below two future NBA lottery picks and a junior guard the caliber of Jon Wallace, There weren't two lottery picks on the roster. Roy went #17. We can argue that he should have gone higher but he didn't. Period. Can't rewrite history just to make an argument. Next back during the freshmen season for Jeff, Roy and Jon most people weren't even sure if we had one sure "bonafide NBA starter" (as Mike Wise put it) let alone two. Jeff was good but he wasn't blowing up on any of the draft boards until midway through his junior season. The point? We can't say for sure how good these current players will get. The complete narrative for guys like Otto, Greg, Mikael, Jabril, Tyler, Hollis (possibly), etc. hasn't been determined yet. These guys have a talent athletic ability and determination. You include work ethic and some day they may make folks eat their words. Happens all the time in college basketball. Guys whom you didn't see much of or think much of in their first seasons go on to become great players, many of whom get drafted. Not many folks on this board thought Roy would ever be an NBA first round pick, let alone a starter. Last of all stop the revisionism of Jon Wallace. Jon wasn't winning games for us in the NCAA tournament when he was a sophmore. It took time for him to become this apparently legendary figure amongst Hoya faithful. Truth is some folks back then (during his soph season) made mention that the Hoyas would need an upgrade. Jon was a heady player with a fantastic three-point stroke when he was left unguarded, but he had not at that time even come close to proving that he was a great Hoya or would be a great Hoya in the future. The original post took the position that the difference between this team and the '06 & '07 tournament teams was "leadership.". I think that's a classic immeasurable fan's quality and that talent is a better explanation. Lurker then quibbles with me about only the '06 squad which frankly partially undermines his "leadership" comment, but fine. I respond with a quick line or two about a couple of the '06 players. Now you're giving me a multi-paragraph blow-by-blow recap of the 2006 members I mentioned that attacks my 2 second analysis, and neither of us has mentioned any of the many other key players on the 2006 team. Fine. It seems to me that the relevant comp (since Lurker is focusing entirely on a difference of one win in the NCAA tournament) has to be the mid-March 2006 Hoyas vs. the mid-March 2012 Hoyas, so I'm not sure any of the 2005-06 season development backstory about the year-long progression is relevant. But even if it is, how about weighing in on the ultimate issue? All you've said is "maybe" there's a talent gap, but we don't know for sure. Of course circumstances can change our perspective. Nobody disputes that. The question on the floor is do you think there's a big achievement gap between the two squads and that this gap is explained by a difference in "leadership"? Do you really think sitting here today this year's team was just as talented as the 2006 team, top to bottom?
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CaliHoya
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Post by CaliHoya on Mar 18, 2012 23:23:21 GMT -5
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lichoya68
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OK YOUNGINS ARE HERE AND ARE VERY VERY GOOD cant wait GO HOYAS
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Post by lichoya68 on Mar 18, 2012 23:30:45 GMT -5
HOPE HOLLIS DECIDES TO COME BACK TO improve his game and get rid of that pain he can jason and henry cant go hoyas thanks for the memories great guys great season.
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skyhoya
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Post by skyhoya on Mar 18, 2012 23:33:48 GMT -5
Hollis is gone." He'll have his degree and there is no reason to stay without a quality five and a good point guard."
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Post by hoyaatheart55 on Mar 18, 2012 23:44:00 GMT -5
Does Nerlens Noel qualify as a quality five???... GOT HEEEEEEM
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blueandgray
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Post by blueandgray on Mar 19, 2012 0:03:55 GMT -5
Hollis is gone." He'll have his degree and there is no reason to stay without a quality five and a good point guard." Are you suggesting that hop isn't a quality 5? If so, you have no idea what you're talking about. Kid has all the tools and will only improve with time.
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MCIGuy
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Anyone here? What am I supposed to update?
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Post by MCIGuy on Mar 19, 2012 0:13:51 GMT -5
All you've said is "maybe" there's a talent gap, but we don't know for sure. Of course circumstances can change our perspective. Nobody disputes that. The question on the floor is do you think there's a big achievement gap between the two squads and that this gap is explained by a difference in "leadership"? Do you really think sitting here today this year's team was just as talented as the 2006 team, top to bottom? When I compare I am looking at the key classes. The class for 2012 that I'm looking at are freshmen who have yet to make the expected sophomore leap. In 2006 the class I'm focusing on, the class with the two future NBA starters, were sophomores. It would be nice to wait until these current freshmen have played a second year before I made such an assessment about they really stack up. But if you wish me to go on record and talk about talent (and potential talent) versus the quality of the team in regards to those two squads I will do so. As I wrote earlier in either this thread or another, in terms of which team was better 2006 wins that awards hands down. But only by a small margin. In 2006 the Hoyas were not a top four seed in the Big East Tournament and also lost the second game they played in that tourney. But that season you had two #1 NCAA seeds from the BE so one could argue that the league may have been better at least in the top half. But what makes that team better in the end is probably the fact that they defeated Ohio State in Dayton in the second round to move on to the Sweet 16 where they almost took down eventual champion Florida. So 2006 wins the award for better team by a nose. As for "talent" the jury is still out but I'm going to go out on a limb and say 2012 has more talent. If I take soph class of 2006 and the freshmen class of 2012 out of the equation, then 2012 may end up winning just on the fact that Henry and Hollis have a good chance of making an NBA roster in the next couple of years which would be more than you can from anyone on the 2006 team other than the sophomore class. I emphasize would however because of course that is all speculation on my part regarding Hollis and Henry. And I'm of the opinion Jason is more talented than Ashanti too. So what we have left is the comparison of the sophs of 2006 and the frosh of 2012. Of course 2006 has the upper hand at this point. But I love the upside of some of the current guys. Otto as a freshmen may not have been the interior defender and excellent passer that Jeff was. Then again the offense didn't run through him. But Otto's all around game may still have been better at the same stage. He is a better rebounder, a better all-around defender, a better ball-handler and an owner of a better/more reliable jump shot (mid range). Essentially he looks like a legit SF at the college and the NBA level while Jeff looked more like a tweener. I think he has a high ceiling. Funny thing is Greg's ceiling may be even greater than Otto's. He is a true 6'8 shooting guard and hasn't scratched the surface of his potential. Not to mention I think Mikael and Jabril have loads of ability and physical gifts. If they can put it all together they could become huge factors.
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harlemhoya
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Post by harlemhoya on Mar 19, 2012 0:34:11 GMT -5
Funny thing is Greg's ceiling may be even greater than Otto's. He is a true 6'8 shooting guard and hasn't scratched the surface of his potential. Not to mention I think Mikael and Jabril have loads of ability and physical gifts. If they can put it all together they could become huge factors.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Greg has more range on his jumper, but Otto has a more natural feel for the game. Otto's ceiling is definitely higher, but this is a fun argument to have.
I have a man crush on Otto Porter. This kid has the potential to be a top 15 draft pick in the NBA. I'm saying this coming off a bad game. he was awful on the defensive boards today. He allowed CJ williams to sneak by him for a FT rebound and put back.
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hoyazeke
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Post by hoyazeke on Mar 19, 2012 7:31:29 GMT -5
Also, I loved the fact our guys didn't fold when we got behind big. In 2010 and 2011, the moment we got punched in the mouth by Ohio and VCU, our team let their level of intensity drop and decided to wave the white flag. This team fought tooth and nail to come back, and were it not for a few really tough makes by Wood and Brown down the stretch, would have climbed the mountain. I think the overall mindset of this program has really improved, and this could really be the stepping stone for bigger and better things next year. This might be overselling things a bit. In 2010 and 2011, we just didn't play very good defense--all year but especially in the tournament. To make the kind of runs it takes to overcome a big deficit, you need either terrific defense--which we had--or ridiculous lights out shooting (Austin Freeman vs. UConn). We actually got just a little bit of the latter, but not enough--too many empty possessions when were clawing back such that any bucket at all by NC State felt like a dagger. Anyway, if by "intensity," you meant "great defense," than I agree with you (and I think the former is frequently invoked as an unknown proxy for the latter). I don't think its far to the Freeman/Wright Hoyas to suggest it was just about effort and guts. Defense just wasn't the strong suit of that squad, or Monroe's either, unfortunately. I suppose its possible it was effort, but that's impossible to measure. I felt like the double technical was the turning point. State got a chance to regroup and refocus. Everything was going our way and then the tech, a commercial TO, and we go 3-4 mins without a basket. If we could have tied or taken the lead they would have cracked...... As far as the Ohio game, I fell like that team showed some fight but just wasn't able to produce any stops. They dug a hole and then fought back but in the end the D wasn't there. Last year team couldn't fight back simply because they weren't good enough at that point of the season. I believe that last year's team was never the same after CW's injury. Sort of like UNC this year. When you only have 1 PG you can't afford to lose him..............
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hoyazeke
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Post by hoyazeke on Mar 19, 2012 7:44:54 GMT -5
Oh. Yeah that was a bad play. But I don't think Kansas would have fouled. They were going to get the ball back with time remaining and down 1 if they got the stop. But the guy dribbled it way too much, that was bound to happen. Which goes back to Rockaway's question of why didn't JClark just dribble around at the end of the half instead of throwing a lazy pass that was intercepted for the dunk. That's why. Professor, that is not the same situation. State is up 1 right before half and Kansas is down 1 at the end of the game. The pressure applied by the D is not the same. Jason should have held the ball and dribbled toward the basket and then stopping to get separation to avoid a 5 sec call. Then make a move with around 10 secs left...........
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skyhoya
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Post by skyhoya on Mar 19, 2012 7:52:07 GMT -5
if hop was rteady to be a quality 5, why did vanilla get the back up minutes at the 5 this year?
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lurkerhoya
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Post by lurkerhoya on Mar 19, 2012 8:02:49 GMT -5
Dog, I'll just point out that when I was talking about leadership, which I really wasn't since I called it mental toughness, it wasn't from the players, I really have no qualms with them or the way they played. Since that Final Four group there has been a hole in this program, in my opinion, that with somewhat comparable talent, JT3's teams have not really been able to take a team's best punch. That was my only criticism.
My bigger point from that was perhaps too tucked away and not so eloquently stated. We've deified the 2005-2007 squads for their gifts, talent, and work ethic, probably appropriately so. My point is that a program like ours and a coach like JT3 shouldn't really need to rely on catching lightning in a bottle with whether or not you get a special group of players. The programs we like to think we're comparable to seldom have the issues that we've had for going on almost 5 years.
There's no question in my mind the "bad" losses of the last few years were not because our teams lacked Sweet 16 talent. You can call it a myopic casual fan's view if you like, but it is beginning to feel, to me, that our program is just not instilling an intangible quality that most top programs do. Maybe it's recruiting (JT3's recruits are ostensibly 2-4 in the tournament, with all losses coming as the higher seed), maybe it's our style of play, or maybe it's just, and more likely, something JT3 needs to look at himself and figure out how to get through better to the players.
Insanity is doing the same thing again and again and expecting different results. I think we're at a point where our coach should be thinking about ending that trend. On the positive side, I still think we have a coach and the players to do it.
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OldHoyafan
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Post by OldHoyafan on Mar 19, 2012 8:03:17 GMT -5
That is what made this season so enjoyable. It was the play and obvious potential of the freshman class(Otto,Jabril,Greg, Michael and Tyler). If that class stays for four years then there is no limit to where this team can go if a true PG is added to the mix. I think the most enjoyable surprise for me was the play of Hopkins. I had read on this board the last two years about the lack of a motor and lackadaisical play. I did not see that, in fact I saw a kid who was not afraid to challenge his defenders. He was just not polished enough to pull it off most of the time, but you could see the potential. His defensive presence and rebounding were far greater than Henry's was in his freshman year. The only question mark is his passing ability. If Bolden's lack of a motor rap is as untrue as Hopkins then next year's team will be even more enjoyable to watch. As I saw Hollis drive all the way to the basket for a layup as the help defender ran with the cutter instead of helping, because he was afraid of backdoor basket, I could see the potential of Otto or Greg making that move routinely next year instead of once or twice a game like Hollis did this year. That makes this system lethal. If the Hoyas get either Merlins or Devonta to add to the class of DSR and Bolden watchout ESPN , the Hoyas won't be your "upset special" for any NCAA any time soon.
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OldHoyafan
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Post by OldHoyafan on Mar 19, 2012 8:24:32 GMT -5
Dog, I'll just point out that when I was talking about leadership, which I really wasn't since I called it mental toughness, it wasn't from the players, I really have no qualms with them or the way they played. Since that Final Four group there has been a hole in this program, in my opinion, that with somewhat comparable talent, JT3's teams have not really been able to take a team's best punch. That was my only criticism. My bigger point from that was perhaps too tucked away and not so eloquently stated. We've deified the 2005-2007 squads for their gifts, talent, and work ethic, probably appropriately so. My point is that a program like ours and a coach like JT3 shouldn't really need to rely on catching lightning in a bottle with whether or not you get a special group of players. The programs we like to think we're comparable to seldom have the issues that we've had for going on almost 5 years. There's no question in my mind the "bad" losses of the last few years were not because our teams lacked Sweet 16 talent. You can call it a myopic casual fan's view if you like, but it is beginning to feel, to me, that our program is just not instilling an intangible quality that most top programs do. Maybe it's recruiting (JT3's recruits are ostensibly 2-4 in the tournament, with all losses coming as the higher seed), maybe it's our style of play, or maybe it's just, and more likely, something JT3 needs to look at himself and figure out how to get through better to the players. Insanity is doing the same thing again and again and expecting different results. I think we're at a point where our coach should be thinking about ending that trend. On the positive side, I still think we have a coach and the players to do it. I have used the term"true point guard" as what I thought this team did not have that the 2005-2007 team did have. Wallace was not a "complete point guard" but he was a "true point guard". By that I mean he was not complete in that he did not have a great handle and speed to break a press or blow by defenders to the basket, but he was a coach on the floor that could get the team into the proper sets and would take the big shot when needed. Clark was a great competiter who gave his all every game, but you never felt like he was running the team, he was just competing and leading by example. JT3 needs to find a PG that can be his extention on the court to get the team through the rough patches of a game, either with direction, drive or shot. I think this fallacy that this system does not need a true PG has to change. Regardless of who is the assist leader for this team, you need a true PG to be the leader on the floor that the rest of the team can depend on the make the right decisions in tight situations.
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GUJook97
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Post by GUJook97 on Mar 19, 2012 8:26:28 GMT -5
There's no question in my mind the "bad" losses of the last few years were not because our teams lacked Sweet 16 talent. You can call it a myopic casual fan's view if you like, but it is beginning to feel, to me, that our program is just not instilling an intangible quality that most top programs do. Maybe it's recruiting (JT3's recruits are ostensibly 2-4 in the tournament, with all losses coming as the higher seed), maybe it's our style of play, or maybe it's just, and more likely, something JT3 needs to look at himself and figure out how to get through better to the players. Insanity is doing the same thing again and again and expecting different results. I think we're at a point where our coach should be thinking about ending that trend. On the positive side, I still think we have a coach and the players to do it. I think that is myopic. I think we are far from a lock for sweet 16 talent. III got a ton out of this team, and we should be happy for that. There are probably only 10 teams that are a lock for the sweet 16 talent-wise - i.e., teams that were going to overcome any matchup thrown at them in 3rd round. I dont feel like we have been there the last few years. Put it this way, I would have been ecstatic to play in the Sweet 16 this year. Syracuse, Lville and Marquette do strike me as those teams. They have players that can overcome different matchup situations. I think this is going to change the next few years. Our freshman class is special.
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Post by ColumbiaHeightsHoya on Mar 19, 2012 8:39:38 GMT -5
Missouri, Duke probably felt like sweet 16 locks too. You just never know. If I recall, in '07 we played a tough game against BC to get to the sweet 16 and then obviously the Vandy game and a comeback against UNC. Everything has to go your way and it just didn't yesterday.
We will have enough scoring next year and a better D with Ayegba healthy and the freshman with a year under their belts. The ceiling is high and they'll just need to seize it. Nice season Hoyas!
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lichoya68
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OK YOUNGINS ARE HERE AND ARE VERY VERY GOOD cant wait GO HOYAS
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Post by lichoya68 on Mar 19, 2012 9:33:17 GMT -5
I THINK WERE GONNA BE OK let the games begin is it november yet we will have talent and coaching and some good recruits adn TEAM and HEART . go hoyas
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