For many reasons, it'd be a great thing if G'town became an associate member of the Ivy League. My sense is that they're not taking applications...
They are not, we know that. DFW's proposal is that we would be a de-facto associate member. At first glance it seems like a long shot...but then you look at it more closely and why wouldn't they toss us a bunch of games? Good name, perfect location for alumni outreach, respectable IAA but also not scholarship. Presumably the PL schools will go from about .500 vs Ivies to about .900 in a few years. If they don't- proves how silly this move by the PL was. Fordham gives one pause.
One obstacle is that the Ivy League is very very slow when it comes to making these types of changes. In many ways, the League still operates as if it's in the 1950s (no postseason for football champ and no hoops conference tournament). I'd be shocked if the Ivy agreed to the Ivy+1 model, where Georgetown actually played a full Ivy schedule. I could see Georgetown playing against 4 Ivy teams each year. For example, a home and home against Harvard, Brown, Cornell and Princeton in years 1 and 3 and a home and home against Dartmouth, Yale, Columbia and Penn in years 2 and 4 (essentially ensuring that each Ivy visits Georgetown once every four years)
Anyone who knows more about DI-AA football than I - how much better should we expect the PL to become now that they are offering athletic scholarships? I can't imagine they will be getting many kids with mid level or higher D-IA offers. It certainly gives them an advantage over a non-athletic scholarship granting school in a head to head battle for a recruit, but assuming the other school offers generous need based aid and has other factors to recommend it (location, academics, facilities, etc.) is it likely to be the deciding factor? Honest question.
I just can't see any Ivy dropping football- no matter how apathetic the student body or inept the program. In a strange way playing football against one another is the actual genesis of the Ivy league itself. It wasn't an academic association from the start- it was a football one.
I thought I read somewhere that Columbia was considering dropping football(not sure if this is true or not) If that did happen would the Ivy league perhaps consider replacing them with Georgetown?
I think the more likely scenario is the rest of the Ivy League somehow bullying Columbia into not dropping football.
This brings to mind a hilarious mental image, Georgetown Forever-style, of John Harvard and Keggy the Keg pushing around Lee Bollinger.
"Reward Hoya Blue. These guys were banging on pots and pans with their shirts off through torrential downpours in an overtime win against Duquesne. That’s the type of spirit that could transform Georgetown into a football school every fall." - The Voice, January 19, 2006
I hear you bin. I suppose I didn't mean to frame DFW's point that the Ivy was going to invite us in the official sense (I should've been clearer).
My concern is that being a steady +1 isn't the same as being a member and that staking long-term plans on being a good schedule fit of a league we're not a part of doesn't sound like a workable solution. I suppose things change quickly enough in college sports that perhaps it's viable to try that in the short-term and then see if the earth shifts under us again.
A separate thought: my understanding is that currently all PL schools are authorized to convert need-based financial aid into grant. Essentially, it allows giving a football scholarship limited to the student's actual need. Assuming I'm correct in that premise (am I?) and we're doing some of this now (are we?), I wonder how much cost difference there would be to convert need-based grants given to football players to scholarships. In other words, is calling it a scholarship what's objectionable, or is the added expense what's objectionable? If it's the added expense, then how much will it cost?
I don't think 60 scholarships is workable (if we're going to do 60 full scholarships, why not just go for the 85 and join the Big East), but with our academic advantage over other PL schools, perhaps we could be competitive with a lesser amount than the full compliment.
Post by reformation on Feb 15, 2012 11:59:37 GMT -5
There are other sports where we offer the NCAA max full scholarships but we are bested by the non scholarship Ivy--men's track(sadly) and lax come to mind. Admittedly the ivy's can offer better finl aid packages than we can, but it does show that its possible to be competitive in a non scholarship environment with these types of schools.
I'm not necessarily recommending that we just stay as a non scholarship member of the PL or arguing against it either, just pointing out that the the examples from other resonably competitive sports indicating that competing under these contraints is not necessarily a lost cause.
I think more reasonable (but similar in concept) than Ivy+1 exactly is a hybrid independent with a schedule that is more or less half Ivy and half PL. I just don't think anyone but maybe Lehigh is going to get MUCH better with schollies since they have them in effect now- they are just called something else. And how much better can a top flight program like Lehigh get anway short of joining a IA conference like the MAC? They are not exactly going to start grabbing recruits from Penn St or even Temple. If we are able to put together a 9 or 10 win season with that schedule, we'd be in pretty decent shape for a IAA at large bid I think even now- to say nothing of when PL schools are scholarship and the perception shifts a bit. Not that I think the playoffs are really terribly important to the idea of IAA football. But I could live with that. To me the NEC or Pioneer are non-starters and whether they have auto bids doesn't matter in the least. If we coninue progressing throw in a couple of high profile CAA games like William & Mary or Nova.
Wouldn't this be a pretty tasty schedule?
Dartmouth at Villanova at Yale Lafayette at Columbia at Brown Fordham at Princeton Colgate at Holy Cross
I guess the problem this raises is scheduling- will we have a tough time getting on people's schedules in November, particuarly the Ivy league who likes to have the last 3 or 4 games in a predictable pattern of ivy rivalries. It also raises the question if I'm honest if we are going to keep playing 5 PL teams- why not just stay in the league w/o schollies.
Per usual, I am extremely disappointed that once again the Administration is taking the cheapest, slowest and most non-committal / non-supportive approach to the football program that is possible. The preparation and handling of this situation is basically no different than what they have done for the past 10 years when it comes to the MSF. It is a stick your head in the sand and hope / pretend like it's not happening or going to affect us approach. Quite honestly, it embarrassing and unfortunately, I don't expect anything to change anytime soon!
That said, I also don't think that as long as the PL continues their AI requirement, the lack of schollies at Gtown will eliminate our ability to compete in this league. PL schools will still be prohibited from recruiting the vast majority of the top FCS players / bottom FBS players that currently go to the MAC, SunBelt, CAA, SoCon, Etc. LH and Gate already gave nearly 100% aide through grants to FB players and the same is true of the top Ivy's. Georgetown will however, need to increase their financial support of football and make more grant / aide money available to the football team to remain competitive. Quite honestly, I don't think that this is a tremendous ask since we are ducking the costs that every other program in the country is incurring in schollies and by having & maintaining real facilities.
I just don't get how Gtown which is such an amazing institution with so much pride for itself and reputation to protect, continually fails at providing competitive funding and facilities for the athletics programs. It is a shame, it is embarrassing and as per usual the players, coaches and fans are essentially getting shafted by a lack of support by the Administration for the programs. I am still completely unable to comprehend how all of the schools in the PL or the lesser prestigious schools in other FCS conferences can afford schollies and facilities when Gtown can’t even come close! Mind boggling – it’s like we are a really, really economically poor family living in a really, really expensive neighborhood and hoping nobody notices or makes too much of a public comment or joke about it.
At the very least, I pray that the Administration will use some of the money that will be "saved" by not granting schollies and start finishing out the MSF. It does not need to be completed in a single year, but what about spending some money each year to build out a respectable facility? In the same light, if we can't afford 60 schollies over the next 4 years, how about taking a phased approach to that as well? Why completely discount schollies at Gtown for FB, but rather implement them over a much more gradual and affordable timeline? Until this year, we had not been good for 10 years, so if there is no other option or support, I would be willing to be bad for another 10 if I knew that we were actually completing the facilities and working towards a full boat of 60 schollies which would allow us to be a legitimate program that we could all be proud of. It would be better in my opinion than the what we have now or dropping down to a joke like the NEC or PFL.
Progress of any sort is much better in my opinion than the apathy and lack of progress that we have seen over the past 10 years!
the scholarship cost alone is 15 per class, beginning in 2013, so eventually 60 tuitions per school year if running at full capacity.
Agreed, Ro, but my question (which I posed before - I think you were responding to someone else) is whether we're already giving need-based grants because kids are on the football team.
My understanding is that PL football players go through the financial aid process every other student does. At the end, though, a PL school is entitled to give football players the aid they are entitled to in pure grants instead of the more standard mix of loans and grants. In other words, the kids can get a football scholarship up to the amount of their need.
If we're already doing that, and, say, 50% of the kids on the team are getting 50% of their tuition paid for (just made that number up). then we could just take that money that's earmarked for "need-based grants for football players" and move it into the "scholarship" column.
I feel like we could compete with LESS scholarships than, say, Bucknell. But no scholarships might be tough...
I think your thoughts on the need-based grants and re-classifying them as scholarships are spot on, and very likely one of the "options" the administration is pondering. I think the rub on the conversion of that need based aid into a scholarship comes down to Title IX. If the athletic department is current near or at a balance between men's and women's sports, they'll need to create that many more scholarships on the women's side. I'm also not sure if it is "just that easy" to re-name need based aid as a scholarship. It very well could be, but I'm sure there could be some type of a moral hazard if a portion of the University's aid for all students in need is ear-marked especially for athletes. Need-based aid is supposed to be blind to all factors aside from a family's financial situation, so using a qualifying factor such as being on a varsity sports team may not fly.
Then again, maybe it is a simple thing. I really don't know. I'm mostly assuming there are a ton of moving parts here and it's not as easy as many would like to think. I'm trying to stay positive here and holding out that we will end up taking a respectable path and maintaining the program. I'll be somewhat devastated if the program takes a step back or is eliminated.
The 2011 Georgetown Hoyas...Defending the paint and the American Way...
Post by happyhoya1979 on Feb 19, 2012 0:37:56 GMT -5
It is time to go Ivy. We will never be able to compete without scholarships in the Patriot League and our students are "Ivy Level" is every substantive way. I suggest that the way it be done is to have the Ivy League absorb Georgetown for all sports including football and MIT for all sports excluding football. A balanced schedule is only important for basketball and other sports like lacrosse and soccer. Football is unconstrained in that an extra game could easily be added to the Ivy schedules. MIT will need to recruit a competitive basketball team but that should not be a problem once its new status becomes public and a docent coach is hired.
Our basketball, particularly if we can make a final our run this year, will fit in with the new emphasis at Harvard and the long standing traditions at Penn and Princeton. With Georgetown's basketball panache, a pretty decent cable deal could undoubtedly be had and the Georgetown-Harvard games would be CBS material for national broadcasts.
Georgetown basketball in the Ivy League is not going to happen (and should not for many reasons). Georgetown football as part of the Ivy league is a great idea and the time to do that is now.
Georgetown football to the Ivies is a great idea... for Georgetown. Good luck convincing the other Ivies that it's a good idea for them.
"On a given day, a given circumstance, you think you have a limit. And you then go for this limit and you touch this limit, and you think, 'Okay, this is the limit.' And so you touch this limit, something happens and you suddenly can go a little bit further. With your mind power, your determination, your instinct, and the experience as well, you can fly very high." -Ayrton Senna