MCIGuy
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Post by MCIGuy on Feb 12, 2012 18:29:04 GMT -5
Regardless of whether players leave in good academic stand or not, I hope we Hoya fans remember this thread next time we are so cavalier to brush off a scholarship shortage by claiming/expecting/hoping that a player or two will transfer at the end of each season.
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bmartin
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Post by bmartin on Feb 12, 2012 21:24:58 GMT -5
The key point is that a player who transfers or leaves early for a pro career does not hurt the APR if he finishes the semester in good standing. The players that leave school as soon as the season ends and forfeit the spring semester are the ones that kill a school's APR.
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Post by TrueHoyaBlue on Feb 13, 2012 11:50:01 GMT -5
Actually, that player does hurt the APR.
Each semester, a player has two potential points, one for remaining in good academic standing, and one for retention (which is awarded for staying through to the next semester or for graduating).
If a player transfers at the end of the year (or leaves for the draft) but is in good academic standing at the end of the year, that player is good for 3 out of 4 possible points.
If the player leaves for the draft and stops going to class, he is only bringing in 2 out of 4 points.
It doesn't hurt as much to have a transfer in good standing, but it still hurts.
(Edit: just read pash's post, which goes into more detail, but an exemption for players who leave for the draft is not something I'd heard of.)
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pash
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Post by pash on Feb 13, 2012 13:09:00 GMT -5
That's not right, THB. I was trying to avoid getting into all the details, but here's how the APR is calculated for transfers and players who go pro.
There is an exemption available both for players who leave school to play professionally and for players who transfer that "excuses" those players' departures for APR purposes, so long as they are in good academic standing when they leave. If they qualify for the exemption, their school doesn't lose any APR points.
How this works is a bit complicated. "Good academic standing" means something different for draftees than it does for transfers. For draftees, it just means that their grades in their last semester were high enough that they would have been academically eligible had they returned to school the next semester. For transfers, "good academic standing" means that plus that they have a cumulative GPA of 2.6 or higher when they leave.
For transfers and draftees (actually any player who signs with a pro team, not just NBA draftees) who leave in good academic standing, the retention point is ignored in the APR calculation (so long as the school submits a waiver request). So departing players in good academic standing are considered to have earned "1-of-1" points in their last semester. In other words, they earn just one point (the eligibility point) but the school's number of points possible (the denominator in the APR calculation) is also incremented by only one.
So if a player in good academic standing (who was eligible throughout his last year) transfers or goes pro, he gets 3 out of 3 points for the year—2-of-2 for the first semester and 1-of-1 for the second—not 3 out of 4. This is what happened with the Hoyas in 2009-10, when Monroe went pro and Mescheriakov transferred, yet Georgetown had a perfect APR.
If a player who is not in good academic standing transfers or goes pro, the retention point doesn't get ignored, so of course the school's APR takes a hit. A player who blows off school and flunks all his classes in his last semester before going pro loses the eligibility point, and because he lost the eligibility point he also loses the retention point (he's not in good academic standing, so he doesn't qualify for the waiver) and goes 0-for-2. This is what happened with DaJuan Summers.
The situation is more complicated for a transfer, because a transfer can not be in good academic standing either because of his last semester grades or because of his cumulative GPA (or both). So a transfer who is not in good academic standing can go either 1-for-2 or 0-for-2 depending on his grades in the last semester before transferring and on his cumulative GPA. If he flunks his classes in his last term before transferring, he loses both points and goes 0-for-2. (This rarely happens because you must be academically eligible to accept an athletic scholarship from another school, I believe.) On the other hand, if a transfer gets acceptable grades in his last semester, he gets the eligibility point, but if his cumulative GPA is less than 2.6, the retention point cannot be waived, so he goes 1-for-2. This is what happened with Omar Wattad.
The transfer rules are additionally complicated because you can only get the waiver of the retention point if a player transfers to a four-year school on another athletic scholarship. So if a player transfers to a Juco or doesn't play ball for the school he transfers to, he loses the retention point regardless of whether he's in good academic standing or not.
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SFHoya99
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Post by SFHoya99 on Feb 13, 2012 13:42:15 GMT -5
We should pin Pash's post somewhere.
That's the best explanation I've ever read and much more clear than anything I've seen from the NCAA.
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It bears noting that if you have 13 scholarship players, there are 52 possible points that year before waivers, etc. To get below a 925, you need to lose 4 points.
It's tough to maintain if your people leaving don't care about school and don't transfer/go pro in good academic standing. It's not that tough to maintain if they are -- as PASH points out if kids are doing their school work, going pro loses no points and transfers often lose no points, or only one point.
UConn is probably right that going pro/transfers are an issue, but they are only an issue in conjunction with eligibility issues.
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hoyarooter
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Post by hoyarooter on Feb 13, 2012 14:03:10 GMT -5
Great posts, Pash. Really enlightening.
Say, you aren't actually Victoria Beckham, are you? ;D
jk
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HoyaJake
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Post by HoyaJake on Feb 13, 2012 14:49:00 GMT -5
Holy crap pash, thank you so much for writing that up. I have spent a frustrating amount of time trying to figure out the waiver/exemption rules and was never able to completely figure them out because the NCAA doesn't seem to publish the exact rules anywhere -- other than to note that they exist on a case-by-case basis.
Now I understand. Thanks!
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kchoya
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Post by kchoya on Feb 13, 2012 15:12:47 GMT -5
Does the claim that Cuse has 37 Rhodes Scholars as "walk-on" players on their bench to inflate their APR hold any water?
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TBird41
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Post by TBird41 on Feb 13, 2012 19:48:28 GMT -5
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CO_Hoya
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Post by CO_Hoya on Feb 13, 2012 20:32:40 GMT -5
Which means that Andre Drummond can play the second semester without going to a single class then leave for the draft, and UConn will receive no penalty. |
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TBird41
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Post by TBird41 on Feb 13, 2012 20:45:38 GMT -5
Which means that Andre Drummond can play the second semester without going to a single class then leave for the draft, and UConn will receive no penalty. Which just goes to show that it is the biggest joke in the world that Andre Drummond is some how considered to be a walk on |
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Post by HoyaSinceBirth on Feb 13, 2012 21:54:53 GMT -5
Does the claim that Cuse has 37 Rhodes Scholars as "walk-on" players on their bench to inflate their APR hold any water? As others have said it doesn't affect the APR but does probably get included for overall graduation rates for the program. |
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Post by TrueHoyaBlue on May 2, 2012 11:54:01 GMT -5
Great explanation, pash -- thanks for the clarification!
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Post by nashvillehoyas on May 2, 2012 12:15:46 GMT -5
What troubles me about the APR is the possibhle impact on HBCU schools. Many of these universities take chances with high risk students. Students that other D1 programs will bypass due to risks...... Hope that John Thompson will address this issue as he did prop 42, & 48.
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kchoya
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Post by kchoya on May 2, 2012 12:38:08 GMT -5
What troubles me about the APR is the possibhle impact on HBCU schools. Many of these universities take chances with high risk students. Students that other D1 programs will bypass due to risks...... Hope that John Thompson will address this issue as he did prop 42, & 48. What do you want him to say? I don't know that he'd have any problem with this. It was before my time, but I think JT2's issue was with not giving kids a chance to get in to college [on equal footing]. |
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Post by nashvillehoyas on May 2, 2012 13:23:10 GMT -5
I as others think that the APR concept should be re-visited. It's unfair to penalize a program for athletes dropping out of school (NBA, academics but transfer to a compatible school, and personal reasons). I think that Thompson's influence will help address these concerns..... IMO, the only issue that should be addressed is athletes playing out their eligibility and not on target to graduate in 5 years.
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kchoya
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Post by kchoya on May 2, 2012 14:23:06 GMT -5
I as others think that the APR concept should be re-visited. It's unfair to penalize a program for athletes dropping out of school (NBA, academics but transfer to a compatible school, and personal reasons). I think that Thompson's influence will help address these concerns..... IMO, the only issue that should be addressed is athletes playing out their eligibility and not on target to graduate in 5 years. How abot we not penalize schools at all, for any reason.  |
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Post by bicentennial on May 2, 2012 16:22:10 GMT -5
Interesting thing with APR, Calipari has improved every schools' APR where he has gone, so he has succeeded in that. (System only gives scores to 2000 so don't have his UMASS numbers but APR at memphis climbed throughout his time there and has climbed at Kentucky as well. Interesting thing to me is clearly he has kept his players who were leaving for the NBA from dragging the program down, either that or he has convinced the Professors that grades aren't important!
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CTHoya08
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Post by CTHoya08 on May 2, 2012 18:52:50 GMT -5
I don't see any reason why Big John would speak out against the APR, but I can see how it may have hurt him while he was coaching. My understanding is that his policy was to give at-risk kids a chance, but to cut them loose if they didn't put the work in. Having players transfer or drop out with subpar academics is an APR killer.
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pash
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Post by pash on May 3, 2012 23:01:31 GMT -5
The APR's only been around since 2004. For about the fifteen years before that, there was a requirement to publish graduation rates, but there were no penalties attached to failing to graduate players.
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