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Post by alonzosflattop on Jan 25, 2012 16:39:14 GMT -5
Classy. You're a jerk, RDF.
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nychoya3
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Post by nychoya3 on Jan 25, 2012 17:23:34 GMT -5
Any recruiting philosophy that wouldn't offer Jared Sullinger or Mike Sweetney or Sean May or a host of other guys needs some caveats. We're recruiting basketball players not fitness models.
I have no idea if this applies to Jenkins.
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Post by Problem of Dog on Jan 25, 2012 18:27:29 GMT -5
The questions about Jenkins aren't just about his weight, it's about his height and his fitness.
I think this is much ado about nothing, because I have read nothing that demonstrates we're actually pursuing him.
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dense
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Post by dense on Jan 25, 2012 18:33:57 GMT -5
It is much ado about nothing. He is a good player but he is a mid major player or in a system where they can cover for him playing the 3. He is 6'5. I don't really see him slimming down enough to be a guard. I wouldn't be shocked if he didn't end up on Rutgers or in the A-10, and have a really good career. But at the level we are trying to get to, he wouldn't play that much. And he isn't a score inside guy at the next level like that. He is smaller than everyone mentioned that people are comparing him too.
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hoyarooter
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Post by hoyarooter on Jan 25, 2012 20:25:31 GMT -5
Hoyas need to be really careful with recruiting. Let's put it this way--what about this year's team stands out? Versatile guys who are long/athletic, interchangeable, and defend. Now look at some of the names popping up--Tony Parker, Kennedy Meeks, DSR, Kris Jenkins, BJ Anya, and they are opposite. You have slow footed/heavy kids, who are limited in where they can play on court, and some are just flat out defensive liabilities. A kid like Anya struggles to catch passes and finish against people 6'5 or taller. He can't face up and doesn't possess skill. Jenkins is a tweener. DSR isn't a point--he's a stocky 2G. Parker is a flaky one end of the court player. Meeks is too fat and liability on defense. Realize it's not a done deal with anyone--but you can't deny what has worked for the program and what hasn't. The type of players I want Hoyas to land are Devonta Pollard end of spectrum body wise/skill wise and if it's not him--be along those lines. Really be a huge leap backwards to get too many of the "chunky bunch". This seems like cherry-picking (or maybe you prefer donut-picking ). Here is the current 2013 Scout list for kids mentioning GU: #2 Nerlens Noel #8 Troy Williams #11 Nick King #13 Beejay Anya #14 Allerick Freeman #18 Tyler Ennis #23 Rondae Jefferson #24 Rysheed Jordan #29 Kennedy Meeks #53 Stanford Robinson #55 Stephen Domingo #64 Josh Hart #67 Kris Jenkins I would say that the clear majority of these kids fit your model, and of those that don't (other than DSR, who is already in the fold), most are centers, which does seem to be an area of need. Most of the centers we have pursued (but failed to sign) have been long and lanky, but for 2013, if we don't get Noel, maybe we'll end up having to settle, or just decide to go with Tyler and Moses (or add a late bloomer - we are talking 2013 here). As for the other positions, I don't see it being an issue.
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Post by stafford72 on Jan 25, 2012 21:30:11 GMT -5
Basketball recruiting is not an exact science. You go after a number of players and try to get a few that want to be in your program and hopefully fit your needs. Yes, it is important to get good athletes, but it is more important to get good basketball players. Adrian Dantley and Charles Barkley were both undersized and a bit on the burly side coming out of high school. I think they did ok though.
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RDF
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Post by RDF on Jan 25, 2012 23:07:32 GMT -5
Basketball recruiting is not an exact science. You go after a number of players and try to get a few that want to be in your program and hopefully fit your needs. Yes, it is important to get good athletes, but it is more important to get good basketball players. Adrian Dantley and Charles Barkley were both undersized and a bit on the burly side coming out of high school. I think they did ok though. Charles Barkely was an above the rim player and freak. He could play at bigger weight because it didn't limit his ability to dominate the glass. Some of you guys are too sensitive and must be overweight yourselves. We're talking about prospects for a Major D1 program and of course you want great skill--BJ Anya is not skilled and to his credit-he's worked hard to shed weight but he's not a fit for what Georgetown does at all. He can't shoot, is a horrible passer, doesn't finish at rim (ok-that is GTown like) and is a bad defensive player. He can block shots--but he's not a great shot blocker or defender--he gets out of position and moved around. Would you say this year's Hoya team is best defensive group III's had in past 4 years? What is the makeup of the team? What type of players do you see on the court? You have to be very careful to not fall into the same trap that made the past 3 years awful defensive teams. Too many guys in same mold and you go from a team who has potential to a team who can't get stops and loses games that has this board in an uproar and asking "why/what's wrong"? Some of you guys need to watch these guys play and quit looking at rankings and listening to what others say.
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blueandgray
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Post by blueandgray on Jan 25, 2012 23:51:04 GMT -5
While I am not a proponent of trashing any potential recruit on this board (which imo happens far too often), if you look at jt3's time here at g'town...length, versatility, and athleticism works best for his style of play. His best teams and most impactful players fit this description... Bowman, Jeff, Roy, Patrick, Greg, Dajuan, Otto, etc.. We all know what happened when we went with the small, slow but skilled approach. Size matters.
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idhoya
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Post by idhoya on Jan 26, 2012 9:56:59 GMT -5
A DS type talent would be nice. Size, shooting, boards. And DS would dunk on a cat!
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SFHoya99
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Post by SFHoya99 on Jan 26, 2012 11:51:10 GMT -5
You have to have a balanced roster. Right now my biggest concern is getting someone with low post skills. A Mike Sweetney is always welcome. A Mike Sweetney with this freshman class would be beastly.
You shouldn't go all the way to skill or athleticism at the expense of the other. But we're going to have a LOT of 52-50 games next year, especially if Hollis goes. That's not awful, but getting a big with low post moves would be nice. Hopefully if we don't get one, Adams/Hop/Moses come into the season next year sporting some moves.
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RDF
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Post by RDF on Jan 26, 2012 12:56:06 GMT -5
You have to have a balanced roster. Right now my biggest concern is getting someone with low post skills. A Mike Sweetney is always welcome. A Mike Sweetney with this freshman class would be beastly. You shouldn't go all the way to skill or athleticism at the expense of the other. But we're going to have a LOT of 52-50 games next year, especially if Hollis goes. That's not awful, but getting a big with low post moves would be nice. Hopefully if we don't get one, Adams/Hop/Moses come into the season next year sporting some moves. Well there's this neat invention to counteract a less effective perimeter shooting team-it's called transition/running game. The more skill/size you have--the more effective you should be in transition-considering different players should be able to handle the ball-and if you notice, the FR run a fastbreak better then upperclassmen. Jason finishes well but he's not a very good at running break unless it's to finish himself. Porter, Whittington, Trawick all have shown better instincts at running the break. They space, move the ball, and finish well on break-Whittington needs to work on finishing with traffic--but he's not DayJack like. Lost post scoring will be there-Adams (health permitting) and Moses will be fine. One thing that is a given--Hoyas develop big men. Think it's far more important for this offense to have a guy who can play the high post and has knack of passing/seeing the court--because that spot is most important on court in Georgetown halfcourt sets. Which is why Nerlens Noel is best fit/player for them. Some of these guys can score on block but are incapable of playing facing and really the guy who needs to greatly improve to help next year's team is Nate Lubick-he's got to be able to take/make that shot Henry has at FT line area--and we know he can pass the ball, so he'd be ideal guy--despite fact he's not a great finisher-he's got decent post moves. So I'd prefer a defensive presence at 5 spot next year if Noel doesn't come or stays in '13 (still not believing that one until next fall when he's in Tilton classroom). Moses is that. Tyler has nice post move/size to move people--just needs to get stronger leg base.
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idhoya
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Post by idhoya on Jan 26, 2012 13:04:17 GMT -5
Damn, a DayJack reference. Why'd you have to go there RDF? lol
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SFHoya99
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Post by SFHoya99 on Jan 26, 2012 16:17:16 GMT -5
You have to have a balanced roster. Right now my biggest concern is getting someone with low post skills. A Mike Sweetney is always welcome. A Mike Sweetney with this freshman class would be beastly. You shouldn't go all the way to skill or athleticism at the expense of the other. But we're going to have a LOT of 52-50 games next year, especially if Hollis goes. That's not awful, but getting a big with low post moves would be nice. Hopefully if we don't get one, Adams/Hop/Moses come into the season next year sporting some moves. Well there's this neat invention to counteract a less effective perimeter shooting team-it's called transition/running game. The more skill/size you have--the more effective you should be in transition-considering different players should be able to handle the ball-and if you notice, the FR run a fastbreak better then upperclassmen. Jason finishes well but he's not a very good at running break unless it's to finish himself. Porter, Whittington, Trawick all have shown better instincts at running the break. They space, move the ball, and finish well on break-Whittington needs to work on finishing with traffic--but he's not DayJack like. Lost post scoring will be there-Adams (health permitting) and Moses will be fine. One thing that is a given--Hoyas develop big men. Think it's far more important for this offense to have a guy who can play the high post and has knack of passing/seeing the court--because that spot is most important on court in Georgetown halfcourt sets. Which is why Nerlens Noel is best fit/player for them. Some of these guys can score on block but are incapable of playing facing and really the guy who needs to greatly improve to help next year's team is Nate Lubick-he's got to be able to take/make that shot Henry has at FT line area--and we know he can pass the ball, so he'd be ideal guy--despite fact he's not a great finisher-he's got decent post moves. So I'd prefer a defensive presence at 5 spot next year if Noel doesn't come or stays in '13 (still not believing that one until next fall when he's in Tilton classroom). Moses is that. Tyler has nice post move/size to move people--just needs to get stronger leg base. I have refrained from making DayJack references since I saw him again (he was in my class) at the Washington game in Anaheim two years ago. But yes, not the greatest at the layup. I have no problem with running, but I would never want to build Hoyas around it. In fact, I would never want to build my team around a running game as the primary option UNLESS I was recruiting at the level UNC/Kentucky are now. The teams with the most talent are always going to run, and if you play their game with less talent, you will lose. I'd like it to be a component of the offense, but if we want to beat the teams that recruit above us -- not just UNC and Kentucky, but the UConns, Syracuses, etc., -- we have to beat them on something that's not so dependent on athleticism. Because they are going to have the better athletes. ---------------------- I'm still not sure how that works in with my comment about Low Post play. The huge, gigantic driver of a really effective offense and a less effective one over the now 8 years of Thompson is low post play. We always find shooters. We get points off of smart movement. Sometimes we run. Sometimes we O rebound. But having a guy who can consistently score down low -- enough to force double teams and get that 60% shooting that opens up the threes, the O rebounding, the cuts... We've had Top 20 offenses in 06, 07, 08 and 10 - Hibbert from sophomore on and Monroe's sophomore year. The other years we had talented players but could not go inside. This year we don't have that guy, either. I love what I've seen and read of Noel and would take him in a heartbeat. I am confident we can develop low post play - Hibbert, Green, Monroe are proof and both Sims and Vaughn developed moves even if they lack in some tools. But I think there's no issue to making a few exceptions to the athletic, long rule (which I generally agree with) and someone who has decent size (6'8"+) and just scores down low -- I'd take that. I'd guess my rule of thumb is get guys like this freshman class, but if you have to make exceptions, make them for guys with one exceptional skill -- great low post game or a spectacular shot. There's always room for a Mike Sweetney or a Jon Wallace.
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prhoya
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Post by prhoya on Jan 26, 2012 16:40:15 GMT -5
A DS type talent would be nice. Size, shooting, boards. And DS would dunk on a cat! Who's DS? I got lost by the use of "boards" in your post.
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RDF
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Post by RDF on Jan 26, 2012 16:48:11 GMT -5
SF-there is room for a Wallace and especially a Sweetney--people need to quit acting like he was some stiff-Tony Parker and BJ Anya's couldn't hold his jock--Sweetney was an elite recruit. He also played in a more open style of play. Mike Sweetney in a III system is going to be utilized a lot different and while I think he'd be just fine, it would be a different role.
There is a fallacy that you don't build around running and it's simply not true. A break/easy hoop is ALWAYS your best chance to score. It's always your 1st option and should be. Then Secondary break, then you can pull it out and run offense.
It's also a fallacy that Georgetown can't operate that type of game. Most of Georgetown's best games/wins are in that style of game--to get to the Final Four against UNC, Duke wins they ran with Duke, Villanova, ND in BET Semis in '07, and did the exact formula as mentioned above. Georgetown plays its best ball when they get transition points--because they usually are going to shoot very well in 1 half and so-so in other--so if they get easy hoops-it means they'll shoot well all game and more then likely win--especially when they have athletes/size/skill they did from '05-'08 and currently do. The win against Missouri last year--they ran up and down and they were better when they did run being small too.
If you want to get the type of guys who choose those programs--you will increase your chances if you play the way Hoyas have shown they can. Problem is--it stops for whatever reason? I realize you can't do it every game but this team has more talent then some of the teams who they've struggled against and part of it is due to limited possessions and why is that? Defense is more then good--they are one of best in country this year, so why do they struggle to score? I think its due to lack of an elite PG--but that's just my take--because those guys can create offense and can help get you more pts off your stops on defense.
Jon Wallace always has a place too--it's just better to have him when you have 5 NBA frontcourt players on your team at same time--Jeff, Roy, PE Jr, Dajuan, and Vernon. Mock Vern all you want--but he's in the league. PE JR made it for cup of coffee, but he made it. So you can overcome that lack of athleticism when you can space court with Pros. You put Wallace with last year's team and it's not going to work.
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RDF
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Post by RDF on Jan 26, 2012 16:50:13 GMT -5
A DS type talent would be nice. Size, shooting, boards. And DS would dunk on a cat! Who's DS? I got lost by the use of "boards" in your post. Dajuan Summers
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prhoya
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Post by prhoya on Jan 26, 2012 16:57:43 GMT -5
That's what I thought until I read "boards". I don't want another player allergic to boards like DS. The new mentality brought by the freshmen has been contagious to our upperclassmen. 12 boards from Sims??? Credit Otto & Co.
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RDF
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Post by RDF on Jan 26, 2012 16:58:49 GMT -5
That's what I thought until I read "boards". I don't want another player allergic to boards like DS. The new mentality brought by the freshmen has been contagious to our upperclassmen. 12 boards from Sims??? Credit Otto & Co. I'd take Dajuan Summers every year if can promise me that Georgetown will play him at SF and not PF.
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prhoya
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Post by prhoya on Jan 26, 2012 17:05:01 GMT -5
I like SFs in the mold of the current models, but I'd take a DS if we have strong players/leaders around that role player.
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SFHoya99
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Post by SFHoya99 on Jan 26, 2012 17:38:37 GMT -5
RDF, interesting and convo and I'm going to respond in a second...
On DS, Summers was an effective rebounder -- even at the 4 -- until his junior season. Maybe it was losing Hibbert on the other side and maybe it was him trying to score and ignoring D and rebounding -- I have no idea -- but he went from a very solid rebounder to a terrible one in a year.
He was about 20% on D Rebounds his sophomore year playing PF. He was about 10% on DReb his junior year playing PF (next to Monroe).
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