Is race now an issue again for Hoyas?

[ColumbiaHeightsHoya]

Seeing the Causey news, I really hope that race does not become a problem again for the hoyas in recruiting. I was happy to hear that the hoyas landed Causey because he was a "top" recruit and was going to change other university's recruiting tactics of saying the hoyas won't allow white players to succeed.

I hope this does not become an issue and a tool for other schools to use against us as we need to be able to recruit the entire talent pool in order to have a successful program. Please tell me I am way off base with my line of thinking?

[TrueHoyaBlue]

On other boards, people who mentioned the possible transfer said that he had been thinking about it pre-coaching change, so I would think not.

[SFHoya99]

Well, if you've got to alienate one race of high school ballers, white isn't a bad choice... ;D

I think other teams will try to use it. They use it now, I'm sure, even with Causey. But it won't be as bad at the late 80s, I'd think. Gtown was such a symbolic thing back then, and it has lost much of that with so many other teams that have black coaches and are mostly black.

It's not something I'd worry too much about with 3. If he wants to recruit a white guy, I think he can point to his Princeton teams.

[SirSaxa]

TrueHoyaBlue said:

On other boards, people who mentioned the possible transfer said that he had been thinking about it pre-coaching change, so I would think not.

Reality is one thing
Perception is another.

If rival coaches think they can use that argument to their advantage, some of them will -- whether or not there is any truth to it.

But as SFHoya pointed out, JT3 can indeed cite his Tiger teams.

As for our Hoyas, it would be better to have diversity without sacrificing quality -- just like every other aspect of University admissions, academics, faculty, and so on.

[RaleighHoya]

Was race an issue at Princeton where JTIII coached before?

[Sweetness]

One data point - recently I spoke to a former player of JTIII's from Princeton - who happens to be white - and he was absolutely raving about JTIII; couldn't have been higher praise. Said that if he were a high schooler again he would definitely go to Gtown (if recruited obviously.)

[aggypryd]

DownwithRick said:

Seeing the Causey news, I really hope that race does not become a problem again for the hoyas in recruiting. I was happy to hear that the hoyas landed Causey because he was a "top" recruit and was going to change other university's recruiting tactics of saying the hoyas won't allow white players to succeed.

I hope this does not become an issue and a tool for other schools to use against us as we need to be able to recruit the entire talent pool in order to have a successful program. Please tell me I am way off base with my line of thinking?

It won't be as much as it use to be...

John Thompson II was made out to be a villain. In most people's viewpoints, during the time he was trying to build his program, Black people were still considered 'The Enemy'...sorry, but it's true...I had so many White class-mates to tell me that they hated Georgetown because they thought it was a Black School...and I would respond..."How many Black people do you see in the stands?...Just about the only Black folks at Georgetown are on that basketball court..."

You will have problems getting the Blue Chip non-Black athlete...and since a lot of High School coaches still hold animosity against Big John, you're going to lose out on some Blue Chip Black athletes also...

As much as we'd like to try to fool ourselves, race is still an issue with a lot of people.

[FOTP]

Race isn't an issue in this case in my opinion.

Causey wasn's dumb. He saw an incumbent junior starter and he saw the new coach out on the road recruiting "over" Causey. He didn't want to sit around for a few years to see if he could start.

I don't blame the kid. The guy who was his recruiter left and a new coach may have different ideas.

At the end of the day this isn't that awful of a situation. This gives further ammunition for JTIII to go out and get a top notch PG for next year with the "promise" of substantial playing time.

[DFW HOYA]

aggypryd said:

...I had so many White class-mates to tell me that they hated Georgetown because they thought it was a Black School...and I would respond..."How many Black people do you see in the stands?...Just about the only Black folks at Georgetown are on that basketball court..."

What an strange comment. Were you serious?

In case you missed it, Georgetown University is a very diverse place. It ranks in the top 10 in many polls for African American graduates; outside of the HBCU's, it is in the top two, along with Stanford. No school in America except Howard graduates more alumni who become attorneys. And because of the overall admissions competition, there are many more applicants than acceptances. Last fall, ABC News profiled three students applying to GU--one of whom was a basketball player from Banneker who scored a 1330 on his SAT and was president of his school's math club--and he was denied early admission. (He was later accepted by, and took the offer at Duke.)

As to your comment about who is or isn't in the stands, you owe yourself a visit to MCI Center someday. Good seats always available...

[nychoya3]

Who are these classmates of yours? Seriously.

JT was deservedly an icon in the black community, and that absolutely was parlayed into recruiting successes. However, being a friendly environment for black athletes does not require being unfriendly towards whites. It's not a zero sum game. Sead is always hanging out with the team and he's not only white, but also Serbian.

There are simply more top quality black players than white, particularly in the East coast stomping grounds from which GU draws most of its players.

[the_way]

I really don't understand where race comes into play. Georgetown has had numerous transfers in JTII and Esherick era's, and most them were by black players. So now, Causey, a white player, transfers, and now race may be an issue??? Go figure. Causey transferred for his own reasons. Is Jim Calhoun racist for having a starting rotation of black players? Is Bob Huggins racist for having fielded mostly black teams. If you look at the college landscape, most teams, field mostly black players. So how can they use the race card against us. Where most of the country now, and back in the 80's were fielding mostly black teams. The only people who had animosity towards JTII, and thought he was a racist for fielding all/mostly black teams, were nothing but idiots who were jealous and small-minded.

Again, Causey transferred for his own reasons, NOT because he was white. There is no issue, unless people have issues about race.

[doublehoya]

DFW,

You said what I wanted to say, but much more tactfully. Thank you!

I actually heard two kinds of racism about G'town when I was in high school and told people where I was headed for college:

1. Why do you want to go there? Isn't it a black school?

and

2. The only black students are on the basketball court.

two sides. same coin.

[RDF]

I don't know about coming down on Aggypryd, as I grew up with classmates who HATED GU too and for many of the same reasons. Let's face it, many people think anyone different than them is a threat and most don't take time to view things simplisticly. Of course it didn't help to have the National Media labeling GU as thugs and outlaws-- that's directed towards Curry Kirkpatrick's and Brent Musburger's of the media.

I think the hatred towards GU had a lot to do with the fact John Thompson was a strong Head Coach who didnt' kiss the butts of the media and act as if he needed to THANK everyone for his opportunity. To me this is what attracted me to the program and why I loved JT and still respect him. I don't agree with his views on Basketball as much as I used to because I think he let the program slip and that should've never happened, but I'm a fan and that's not going to mean a thing to him.

It wasn't just race that bothered Hoya HATERS, it was the style of play and fact that Georgetown would flourish when things got physical, chippy, and confrontational. It's almost as if GU was the John McEnroe of College Basketball. When the tempers came out, the HOYAS DOMINATED and upped their game. Nothing like it and as a player I loved that atmosphere as well--nothing like being hated and yelled at--it's the ultimate compliment as an athlete, it's respect and FEAR that fuel the hatred.

Unlike Duke, GU didn't get "love" or have a Dookie V telling everyone how great we were, we had people trying to sell Chris Mullin over Patrick as the BE's Best Player and Mulling was great, but EWING WAS THE BIG EAST!!! Facts are I'm a Hoya and so are all members of this site and what I think attracts the old Hoya fans to III and his approach is that he's going to incorporate some new methods--such as going after the top players in the country and blend it with new style--which is needed, but OLD ATTITUDE--which has been MISSING!!

As a little white kid growing up in Midwest with an autographed picture of John Thompson on my wall--still have it up there too in my office now---and rocking GU gear and living and dying with every game, I loved that others hated my team and me for supporting the Hoyas. I knew some of it was because Hoyas were led by an OPINIONATED, OUTSPOKEN, and INTELLIGENT African American and had a team made up of all Brown faces, but I saw the style of play and Blue and Grey as what I wanted to be and support. To this day I've never met another Hoya fan in Midwest--not to the extent of my love for GU and I don't care. I stick by GU and will forever because they were/are a special program--different from anyone else. Best way to describe it is to combine Duke's success with people's hatred for Dallas Cowboys, NY Yankees, and Lakers ROLLED INTO ONE and you had about HALF the HATE for GU in Mid 80's. Hoyas didn't care if you liked them or not, they were going to bust your ass for 40 minutes and do whatever it took to win.

I miss those days and that's why I get excited whenever I read JT III mention bringing back the days when "WE ARE GEORGETOWN" meant something and it's "TIME TO MAKE THEM REMEMBER WHY"!!!! It's a Hoya thing, nobody else can understand it and I don't want anyone else to understand it. Let them hate us, expose themselves for whatever reasons they dislike GU and leave the support to those who are in HOYA FAMILY!

[the_way]

Amen RDF!! Preach on!!!

Forever Blue and Grey!! ;D

[Deleted]

Agree with a lot of the perception comments about GU. My father is an alumn, has always loved hoops, loved JT and raised me to love both as well. I can remember as a youngster my old man talking to me about how he admired JT for putting so much on the line with his walk-offs, critical comments about X or Y, basically standing up for what he believed in despite being in a position where many become complacent, just try to KEEP their jobs. Alternatively, growing up a Hoya fan I can remember the "smart" people I knew saying how they hated JT because HE was racist (I assume they made these comments because of the sometimes all-black squads he brought to the table). But when pressed about it (I'd often just ask, "How is he racist?" and leave it at that), people would usually just say he's a jerk, bigot, whatever. Essentially, nobody A) bothered to understand the issues he was vocal about, B) never bothered to look into why he'd take at-risk kids from bad environments, or C) could come up with an ever REMOTELY plausible reason why he was racist. At the time it made me feel good to know that I was smarter than these adults on these issues, but looking back that ignorance is pretty pathetic and sad.

Oh yeah...I also got the "Isn't that a black school you're going to?" comments when I was leaving high school. My answer was either to roll my yes and say "Yes" in a real sarcastic manner or "No, its an all-race school" or someother comment to try and pay homage to GU's diversity.

GO HOYAS!!!

[ColumbiaHeightsHoya]

I think my point has been missed by many on this reply. I realize that Causey didn't leave because he was white. I realize JT III will recruit regardless of race. Some on this thread have hit it on the head that perception is what matters.

No offense to Sead, but he was not a top recruit. I don't even know the incoming class, but I am assuming Roy & Tyler are white (maybe wrong on this). This was not a class recruited by JT III. All I am saying is that until we get other top recruits who are white, it will add ammunition for opposing coaches. JT III is his own man, but people will tie him into his father. Brian Kelly was the only notable white player that I ever recall getting a lot of minutes for the hoyas in the 80's or 90's.

JT II didn't even recruit Willie Dersch who was a McD's all-american and NYC player of the year and his sister was at G'town playing volleyball at the time. Maybe JT II saw something as Willie never panned out at UVa, but perception is much more important then reality when we are dealing with 17 or 18 year old kids.

[Deleted]

Roy and Tyler are not white. Nor are Jeff Green or Cornelio Guibunda (pardon the spelling, Nelly). Nor is Josh Thornton for that matter. But who cares? I just want the best available players, black, white, red, green, whatever. But as I said before, you're right Rick...perception is key, and people will likely use that against any coach that tends to skew towards "one race" in recruiting. But you know what? I'm not sure I want people who buy into that crap coming to G'Town.

GO HOYAS!!!

[nodak89]

The perception issue can be exploited even more by conspiratorially-minded recruiters. Let's say a recruiter wants to go Oliver Stone on some kid and dredge up some old JT race muck for starters and then point out that GU's White Coach got fired and was replaced by...the Son of JT.

Of course, that whole theory is full of sh...oddy logic. But, like Buff said, if a recruit might actually buy that load, then we don't need 'em!

[SirSaxa]

aggypryd said:

In most people's viewpoints, during the time he was trying to build his program, Black people were still considered 'The Enemy'...sorry, but it's true....

Aggypryd,
This point illustrates the "perception v reality" issue. From your post, it is apparent you believe "the enemy" factor. I am guessing that was a reflection of your environment at the time and perhaps subsequently.

I was at GU when JT arrived. I can't speak for everyone of course, but I didn't know a single person who had anything negative to say about JT's race. Some questioned hiring a High School coach. The only way race came into it at all, was to say that maybe JT would have a big edge recruiting some of the outstanding talent from the DC area -- most of whom were black.

Later, when JT's teams were composed entirely of African-Americans, there was criticism from within and without GU. I suppose it was similar to criticism that UK and Bama received at one time for having all white teams. And, it did open JT to the racist argument. Of course, that argument ingnored his staff (Mary Fenlon, Esh, Lori) and his agent (David Falk), and his great relationship with the GU administration. (But then, those who choose to make racial accusations rarely let facts get in the way).

In JT's defense, a significant proportion of top players at the time were black. Also, as the first really successful black coach at a D1 University, JT developed an enormous advantage in the black community for recruiting players. Simultaneously, many competing coaches would tell potential white recruits that JT and GU were racist and wouldn't play whites. (OF course, if that were really true, why would JT bother to recruit them in the first place).

Both JT and ESH have told stories of going to white recruits homes and hearing that recruits and their families had been told exactly that kind of thing.

My personal guess on this, is that the combination of three things:
- greater percentage of talented black recruits
- JT's significant advantage in recruiting in Black communities
- The hurdles JT had to overcome to recruit white players due to unscrupulous (and anonymous) accusations

led to the preponderance of black players on the team. That preponderence in turn led to accusations of racism.

The original point of this whole thread -- and it is a valid one -- is will those kinds of accusations return and will some use Causey's transfer as evidence of it. That doesn't mean Causey DID transfer because of anything to do with race. It means unscupulous recruiters might USE it to support their false accusations by CLAIMING it was due to race. Also, the competition might say that JT3 is a racist just like his dad. (Again, that doesn't mean anyone actually IS, it just means that many recruiters will stop at nothing to get their guy -- so they will say anything.)

One final point... someone mentioned a top white player from NYC who was not recruited by JT. Remember, JT didn't recruit Kenny Anderson either. He only wanted kids who contacted him first. We lost a lot of recruits that way. JT's pride or style or something led him to expect the kids to call him, not the other way around. Or sometimes a kid's mom (e.g. Ms. Iverson) could call and get JT's attention that way.

I think it is positive that we explore this issue and express opinions -- and maintain respect for others' points of view. No one is denying that racism exists in America -- and everywhere else in the world (just not always the same races). My perception based on my experience at GU was that there was little racism. But of course, I didn't know the entire community.

It is good to see most of the board whole heartedly supporting JT3 -- not because of his race, but we see a talented and accomplished coach with great enthusiasm to rebuild the program with whom he has such close ties.

[the_way]

My whole take on the start of this thread, correct me if I am wrong, is that G'Town won't win because we may lose out on great white players. G'town's decline in the basketball college scene was because we didn't have good coaching or great players, white, black, purple, green, orange, etc. If idiots want to spread false rumors, then people who beieve these rumors of racism are idiots as well. People need to find out things for themselves. People aren't stupid. Our success will not be contigent on opposing coaches using the race issue against us. It wasn't back then, it won't be now. It hasn't hurt Jim Calhoun, I mean he won a National Title with a mostly black team. So, I guess teams can use that against him, right? No, I think we may be reading too much into this. Races issues will always be there. One's success is never contigent on race unless one makes it contigent on race.