nathanhm
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Post by nathanhm on Dec 24, 2011 12:45:20 GMT -5
Can I throw out a different idea. Perhaps coach is comfortable playing anyone who grinds the offense to a halt. We get on Greg & Nate but when they are in the game, we still run our sets very well but maybe with Hopkins that doesn't happen.
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Post by wahoohoya on Dec 24, 2011 15:36:52 GMT -5
And here, my bias is similar to something I'm pretty sure RBHoya brings up every time we have this discussion: once we're in the Big East and/or playing good opponents almost every night, a Coach's job is to win the game being played at the time. The best way to do that is to go with your best lineup possible for the game situation. That may be dictated by foul trouble or matchups, but it's no longer the time for playing X purely because it'll be good for their development. I won't care about the 2012-13 season/lineup when we're at the Yum! Center next week. A lot in your post, but I wanted to respond to the above in particular. While every game is important, a Coach needs to look at the big picture as opposed to any single game. Sure, what is best for the big picture might be to only play 7 or 8 guys on a given night. But if you do this consistently when there is a 9th or 10th player on your bench that could help later on THIS SEASON, then you may not be putting your team in the best position to win when it really counts. Of course you never want to give away a game at any point. But I'm in the camp that a couple of minutes here and there in real game situations can help a young player come along faster without hurting much, if anything, in the short term. And I agree with the poster that says adding Bowen into the discussion dilutes the argument. Bowen might be the most athletic guy on the team, but he doesn't seem anywhere near ready to contribute this year and I don't think we need him this year. Hopkins is an entirely different story. He clearly isn't comfortable having the offense go through him but he doesn't look like a long-term project like Moses - kid has some nice skills. And hard to argue we won't need an extra body up front in Big East play.
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MCIGuy
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Post by MCIGuy on Dec 24, 2011 16:46:28 GMT -5
The people defending III's decision make solid points. As usual. Problem is these are the same level-headed reasons that had been brought up the last few years. So if another collapse happens in January, February or in the tourney in March and it appears arguable that our main guys didn't have their legs AGAIN, all these same level-headed responses will simply seem like the same excuses.
Bowen isn't ready? I made this point before and I'll make it again: if it takes more than one or two seasons for a relatively talented basketball player to understand the offensive system before III feels comfortable putting him out on the floor than III needs to think about really tweaking the system or he needs to consider to to loosen the reigns on the team. All across the landscape of college basketball there are teams, better teams, right now with players getting regular run who have yet to figure out exactly what the coach wants; players who have yet to master all the coaches' necessities. This is basketball and teams can get away with that as long as the player brings some skills to the table. We aren't asking Bowen to quarterback the New England Patriots. We are asking him to stand in a corner, pass the ball, and of course, take the inevitable three-pointer when he is open. Hello? Maybe run a backdoor cut every once in awhile for good measure. Sure he's bound to make a mistake or two from time to time. That's part of the learning process and that is also part of the game. There is rarely anything such as perfection in a basketball game. So forget about perfecting the offense. Last season the team could have used a player like Moses for five minutes a game as a defensive anchor. But all the talk was (including that of JT III's dad) that while Moses was a potentially exceptional defensive player he was still too raw on offense. Well, with all the people on this board who disagreed with my assessment that the Hoyas' defense was more than good enough last season, why weren't they clamoring for a guy like Moses to get some play to help on the defensive front? What we got instead was a wasted year in which Moses didn't play and now because of his injury Moses will remain a mystery going into next season because it will now be TWO years during which he barely played any minutes of college ball. Brilliant.
And my complaint wasn't really about Bowen anyway. I just tossed him in there because you would think the Hoyas could find some time for a guy that athletic and that long who does have the capability of hitting threes who also happened to be in his second year of college. But forget about him. My main gripe is with Hopkins. And it makes me wonder if Adams had a clean bill of health would he not be getting minutes too. Okay, that was a joke. I know the answer. Nonetheless I think the Kenner League argument may not actually be worth as much as I typically think it should be. Not for this season at least. Because based upon most of the KL writeups this summer, most folks weren't overly impressed with the play of Hollis, Jason, Henry and Markel. And all of them, so far, are playing better than they had last season.
Here's my biggest worry though. If III sticks with a 7.5 rotation then the pressing on defense option goes out the window despite the promising early results of its use. That's just a fact. Who on this board still wants the Hoyas to not use the press?
One more thing. III's motto is about the team getting better each day, each game, etc. I don't think this team can keep improving without the growth of the bench and the freshnmen. The team could still be good and make it to the second round of the NCAA tourney I suppose. But if this team wants to take it to another level then the newcomers must take it to a new level, including Hopkins. And it is hard doing so when you're almost always on the bench.
Disagreements aside, Merry Christmas to all my fellow Hoyas fans. And peace to all men except Syracuse fans. And Maryland fans. And ACC supporters.
Did I mention Dallas Cowboys fans?
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Post by wahoohoya on Dec 24, 2011 17:29:33 GMT -5
To me, Bowen doesn't seem to be very skilled. Athletic, sure, but I don't see him being a contributor this year or even beyond. Unless he can become a defensive stopper or something. Would love to be wrong, but just my opinion.
Absolutely agree with you on Hopkins, though.
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MCIGuy
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Post by MCIGuy on Dec 24, 2011 18:32:44 GMT -5
To me, Bowen doesn't seem to be very skilled. Athletic, sure, but I don't see him being a contributor this year or even beyond. Unless he can become a defensive stopper or something. Would love to be wrong, but just my opinion. He doesn't have to be Kobe. He must be able to shoot and drive a little. I believe Bowen could easily do those things. Heck, if Benimon could see the floor then Bowen should be able too as well. Just my two cents.
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Post by professorhoya on Dec 24, 2011 19:03:33 GMT -5
Markel seems more in tune to getting others involved than looking for his own shot. He's not a true PG, like Wright, but already has a better deep stroke. I think he's faster than Chris, but Wright is stronger. As someone mentioned, Markel has that burst that allowed him to repeatedly beat Jackson off the dribble. What I like the most is that Markel is almost always under control. His dribble drive and floater off the window was pretty. I don't see it. Wright is much faster, quicker and more explosive. Nothing I've seen from either guy has me to believe otherwise. Of course Wright is at an elite level of athleticism so he's going to have that edge on most people. (which is one reason he was McD All American and Starks wasn't) Starks is more silky smooth. And that floater you talk about is a staple of Mark Jackson who wasn't the fastest or most athletic point guard. I'm still not sold on the ability for him to beat people one on one off the dribble at the elite level (Big East) or dribble penetrate without a screener or pick setter. And really there's no problem with that because at least this year Starks is a role player and playing a very valuable role in the Princeton. There have been plenty of role players who could not handle their roles (Jeremiah, Bennimon) but I think Starks knows what is expected of him and is very good of not trying to do too much.
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Post by HoyaSinceBirth on Dec 24, 2011 19:56:56 GMT -5
I agree that I wish Hopkins saw a little bit more time on the court. That being said we are using the bench more this year. To date we have 30.3% bench minutes last year we had 29.5% The year before 18.2%, 2009 we used 27.1%. 2008 was our deepest year where we game the bench 33.1%. In our 2007 Final 4 year the bench only saw 20.6% and that's the first year kenpom started tracking that stat. So in general we're using the bench more this year, but we've had plenty of success using a short bench. I'm not sure what the general consensus is but I think the 2010 team was better than the 2011 team despite the shorter bench. Besides Julian I don't think I've seen a player who was really tired at the end of the season and therefore affected by the short bench, so I'm not really too concerned about the team wearing out over the season and losing games at the end because they're tired.
I think we have a firm 8 man rotation that will be used through out the season. I don't see the rotation shortening up anymore. I think Hopkins will get situational minutes leading to an 8 1/2 man rotation.
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OldHoyafan
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Post by OldHoyafan on Dec 24, 2011 21:01:12 GMT -5
Put me in the MCI camp that the bench players that see game time each game, blowout or not should be expanded to include Hopkins/Adams (if healthy) and Bowen. Bowen is a 2nd year player that should know the system, and like others have said, Hopkins/Adams will be needed when Henry gets in foul trouble, and he will at some time, get into foul trouble in the BE. JT3 is a victim of his own success. Not many ,if any, prognosticators picked the Hoyas to be a force this year, but JT3 and staff's coaching and willingness of young players to implement the system has them on a role. Now he feels the pressure to keep winning and he knows defense wins more games than offfense, so the 8 players that are now in the rotation are the ones he feels can play with enough defensive harmony to win. The reason Nate gets substituted for is not for his lack of offense, but for his slowness in defensive rotatations at big forward. When he comes back in after being substituted for with Otto, he comes back in substituting for Henry. He has been able to get minutes at the 5 position so far, but with the taller and bigger BE centers Hopkins/Adams will be needed to spell Henry for a breather or when fouls get him.
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Post by wahoohoya on Dec 24, 2011 21:43:42 GMT -5
He doesn't have to be Kobe. He must be able to shoot and drive a little. I believe Bowen could easily do those things. Heck, if Benimon could see the floor then Bowen should be able too as well. Just my two cents. Different positions/roles, so not a great comparison (I'm referring to Benimon - not Kobe). Again, would love to be wrong about Bowen, but he seems very raw to me. Or to say differently, I'm not sure if he can do those things you mention on a consistent basis. No reason he couldn't improve, but I think in his case it is a matter of simply not being good enough to deserve minutes in a position where we have enough depth in front of him. If we were a team like Louisville that likes to press all game by throwing bodies out there, he would likely have a role. While I like that we press in spots, we simply aren't that kind of team.
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Post by hoyas big supporter on Dec 24, 2011 21:57:27 GMT -5
He doesn't have to be Kobe. He must be able to shoot and drive a little. I believe Bowen could easily do those things. Heck, if Benimon could see the floor then Bowen should be able too as well. Just my two cents. Different positions/roles, so not a great comparison (I'm referring to Benimon - not Kobe). Again, would love to be wrong about Bowen, but he seems very raw to me. Or to say differently, I'm not sure if he can do those things you mention on a consistent basis. No reason he couldn't improve, but I think in his case it is a matter of simply not being good enough to deserve minutes in a position where we have enough depth in front of him. If we were a team like Louisville that likes to press all game by throwing bodies out there, he would likely have a role. While I like that we press in spots, we simply aren't that kind of team. Bowen is a competitor and a ballplayer. Thats all you need in my book.
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chep3
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Post by chep3 on Dec 24, 2011 22:30:03 GMT -5
Bowen's problem, in my opinion, is not that he's not ready, but that he's behind other guys at his position. Hopkins, you can make the argument pretty easily that he needs to get PT because we need someone to play additional minutes at the 4/5--for Bowen you can't since we're pretty deep at the 2/3 with Jason, Hollis, Jabril, Greg, and Otto. Hopkins, you can make the argument that 3-4 minutes a game for him (or an additional 3-4 minutes) may help us more long term this season than having Henry/Nate out there for those 3-4 minutes. Bowen's problem is that if you give him an additional 3-4 minutes, you're probably taking away time from guys like Greg, Jabril, and Otto who need those extra minutes for the exact same reason we want Bowen to get them--because they're young.
FL, great post and I agree a lot with what you say. I do think it's more likely that a player develops more in a week of practice than 5-8 minutes of game time. One caveat I have is that some guys perform differently in practice than they do in games (see Iverson, Allen). You don't find out whether a guy is a gamer and steps it up when the lights are on by seeing how they perform in practice, and a good game or two can boost a players confidence. For example, look at Vee--I'm sure the reason he sat is because his practice results didn't indicate he deserved more PT, but when he got out there he had a knack for making plays. And the other caveat I have is that if a guy is getting some run in each game, I wonder if he works harder in practice than he would if he is getting no run. I feel like mentally, one is likely to think it's easier to go from 3 minutes to 8 minutes than it is to go from 0 minutes to 5 minutes. A series of DNP-CDs can be demoralizing, and if you think you're never going to get out there, you might not put the same amount of work in.
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Post by wahoohoya on Dec 24, 2011 22:36:10 GMT -5
Bowen is a competitor and a ballplayer. Thats all you need in my book. And by all accounts, a great teammate. I just can't fault III for not playing him given our depth at the 2/3 this year. But hope Bowen earns a spot in the rotation at some point, because he does seem like a fierce competitor.
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Post by hoyas big supporter on Dec 25, 2011 19:42:40 GMT -5
Bowen is a competitor and a ballplayer. Thats all you need in my book. And by all accounts, a great teammate. I just can't fault III for not playing him given our depth at the 2/3 this year. But hope Bowen earns a spot in the rotation at some point, because he does seem like a fierce competitor. Exactly, I just think were a little deep at his spot, cause there can even be a case for Jabril playing a bit more since he hasnt really messed up, and he has shown a killer crossover and good finishing ability in games. Personally, I think Bowen is a good player and will eventually be a contributor for us if he stays patient. Even though I think he would kill in a dribble-drive offense, I still like the was he fits in on our squad.
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Post by hoyas big supporter on Dec 25, 2011 20:40:56 GMT -5
Probably the stupidest thing I have heard saying e is a competitor and athletic and therefore needs playiying time. Well, stupid, all I said was that it was good enough for me, and then I proceeded to concede that, logically, it didn't make much sense for him to see the court much this year. And also, those of us who love playing sports and have had the privilege of playing sports at a highly competitive level recognize the role that competitiveness can play in one's ability to perform at a high level. Just sayin'.
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Post by hoyas big supporter on Dec 25, 2011 21:05:54 GMT -5
Oh and Merry Christmas everyone!
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Post by Problem of Dog on Dec 25, 2011 23:59:20 GMT -5
Probably the stupidest thing I have heard saying e is a competitor and athletic and therefore needs playiying time. Well, stupid, all I said was that it was good enough for me, and then I proceeded to concede that, logically, it didn't make much sense for him to see the court much this year. And also, those of us who love playing sports and have had the privilege of playing sports at a highly competitive level recognize the role that competitiveness can play in one's ability to perform at a high level. Just sayin'. Tell us more about your high level sports experience.
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Post by hoyas big supporter on Dec 26, 2011 0:11:52 GMT -5
Division I football. Its the nature of sports, you cant deny that.
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