rockhoya
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Jul 17, 2015 22:57:01 GMT -5
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Post by rockhoya on Jul 17, 2015 22:57:01 GMT -5
That's your opinion. This has to be the stupidest response to a person's opinion (post) I've ever seen! We'll see. It has NOTHING to do with Summer League games, go see my old posts from his Frosh year. Sorry, I'm not going to search for your posts from 4 years ago. Sorry, Greg is not as good as Otto. The facts bear this out. What objective evidence is there to support your claim? All the stats and production on the court go against your opinion. Not the stats that say they were both averaging like 12 and 7 before Greg stopped playing organized basketball. And certainly not the stats of Greg's first summer league compared to Otto's. That's pretty objective.
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beenaround
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Post by beenaround on Jul 17, 2015 22:57:45 GMT -5
On the other hand..I do not see any need to compare him to Otto. I am excited he has a chance to be in the NBA.
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rockhoya
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Jul 17, 2015 23:05:53 GMT -5
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Post by rockhoya on Jul 17, 2015 23:05:53 GMT -5
Nobody's going to argue Whit's overall topside potential. Now maybe his 75% probablility potential, but yeah, if Whit became the best player he could be, that'd be a great player. But that's not what was said. There's two ludicrous statements here: that Whit is better than Otto right now and the horribly disingenuous idea that Whittington was as good as Otto their sophomore year. People let athleticism blind themselves to the fact that for two of his three semesters, Whittington was a subpar offensive player and in the second half of his freshman year he was only effective because he got hot from three. I know what people saw potential-wise in him, and he was a good defender, even if he fouled too much. Otto was a better team defender. He was a much better offensive player. And he likely still is. There's really no reason to believe the idea that Whittington is better than Porter right now. There's a level of hatred on this board for a guy like Nate Lubick, who didn't improve, or Josh Smith, who people constantly blast for letting down his team. But if you've got the right kind of athleticism, people will make crazy claims about you. I have no vitriol towards Greg, but I do towards logical inconsistency or arguments with no factual basis. Like I said in the previous post there is nothing spectacular about Whittington's athleticism. He never was playing above the rim at Georgetown, dunking everything home or blocking shots all over the place. He's not explosive or quick twitch. At best he played a smooth finger roll type game and was a versatile defender like a Derrick McKey (who himself wasn't a great athlete but had size and could guard multiple positions). There's nothing superior about Whit's speed or quickness either, in fact Otto was quicker and had a better motor. The idea that Whit was some kind of superman athlete is a myth. What Whit does have is a good skill set when it comes to defending along with a versatile game. But I would consider those things skill and not athleticism or measureables. I'm sorry, but do you know the definition of quick twitch? Just because Greg was smooth and coordinated doesn't mean that he wasn't moving quickly or reacting quickly. Smh I really can't believe people are sleeping on him so much. I mean I know he didn't graduate a Houa but it's only been two years. Greg could compete with the best of them, and still can. That's why he's looked a lot better and more prepared than Otto did coming into the NBA. And for the record, I'm not one of the people trying to say Greg is as good as Otto right now, because that would be asinine. All I'm saying is they have similar talent levels and it wouldn't surprise me to see Whitt be as or more successful going forward, but it also wouldn't surprise me to see his talent plateau and be an end of the bench player. There's a reason he has 3 partially guaranteed offers after not being heavily recruited, not having played organized basketball in 2 years, and coming off of two ACL surgeries. He still isn't back to game shape or speed, but it seems that he's doing something right.
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MCIGuy
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Post by MCIGuy on Jul 17, 2015 23:20:32 GMT -5
Like I said in the previous post there is nothing spectacular about Whittington's athleticism. He never was playing above the rim at Georgetown, dunking everything home or blocking shots all over the place. He's not explosive or quick twitch. It is one thing to not think Greg was/is a great athlete. It is quite another to rate Otto superior on the athleticism front. And I say that as a person who believes Otto is the best player of the III era. As for Greg lacking displays of athleticism first of all IMO I think some of you must have blinders on in regards to Greg. Of course it is only a small sampling to judge by I guess. But I have to say that while at Georgetown neither Jeff Green nor Hollis Thompson displayed some of the stunning athleticism I see from them in the NBA.
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Post by professorhoya on Jul 17, 2015 23:22:27 GMT -5
Like I said in the previous post there is nothing spectacular about Whittington's athleticism. He never was playing above the rim at Georgetown, dunking everything home or blocking shots all over the place. He's not explosive or quick twitch. At best he played a smooth finger roll type game and was a versatile defender like a Derrick McKey (who himself wasn't a great athlete but had size and could guard multiple positions). There's nothing superior about Whit's speed or quickness either, in fact Otto was quicker and had a better motor. The idea that Whit was some kind of superman athlete is a myth. What Whit does have is a good skill set when it comes to defending along with a versatile game. But I would consider those things skill and not athleticism or measureables. I'm sorry, but do you know the definition of quick twitch? Just because Greg was smooth and coordinated doesn't mean that he wasn't moving quickly or reacting quickly. Smh I really can't believe people are sleeping on him so much. I mean I know he didn't graduate a Houa but it's only been two years. Greg could compete with the best of them, and still can. That's why he's looked a lot better and more prepared than Otto did coming into the NBA. And for the record, I'm not one of the people trying to say Greg is as good as Otto right now, because that would be asinine. All I'm saying is they have similar talent levels and it wouldn't surprise me to see Whitt be as or more successful going forward, but it also wouldn't surprise me to see his talent plateau and be an end of the bench player. There's a reason he has 3 partially guaranteed offers after not being heavily recruited, not having played organized basketball in 2 years, and coming off of two ACL surgeries. He still isn't back to game shape or speed, but it seems that he's doing something right. Are you trying to say he has above average NBA athleticism? Because I really don't see it. I'm rooting for Greg to succeed as well, but I just don't see Greg being that much more superior than Otto athletically. At best they are about the same athletically at the NBA level which is to say they have average NBA athleticism.
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Post by professorhoya on Jul 17, 2015 23:26:33 GMT -5
Like I said in the previous post there is nothing spectacular about Whittington's athleticism. He never was playing above the rim at Georgetown, dunking everything home or blocking shots all over the place. He's not explosive or quick twitch. It is one thing to not think Greg was/is a great athlete. It is quite another to rate Otto superior on the athleticism front. And I say that as a person who believes Otto is the best player of the III era. As for Greg lacking displays of athleticism first of all IMO I think some of you must have blinders on in regards to Greg. Of course it is only a small sampling to judge by I guess. But I have to say that while at Georgetown neither Jeff Green nor Hollis Thompson displayed some of the stunning athleticism I see from them in the NBA. I just don't see it. He is nowhere near the level of athlete of a Lebron James, pre injury Paul George, Andrew Wiggins, Loul Deng, Harrison Barnes, Giannis. young Paul Pierce, Kawahii Leonard, Corey Brewer etc, etc. Neither Otto or Greg are in that level athletically.
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dreamhoya
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Post by dreamhoya on Jul 17, 2015 23:27:05 GMT -5
I don't even think you necessarily have to go that far if it's a pure talent comparison. If you can't see the quality of tools Whitt has relative to Otto, and don't understand his athletic progression in context then he'll never measure up. Otto was better frosh year (but Greg was good too, the better defender at that stage), but 12 games into soph year they basically had identical value, with Whitt maybe having the edge because of greater potential. Otto's shot still wasn't trustworthy, but he's done a tremendous job improving since he had to take on more responsibility and has transformed from a 4/5 in high school to a 3/2/4 in the NBA. He's totally changed his game and to say that Whitt couldn't have if he hadn't squandered away the opportunity is just silly, and you're seeing evidence of that in the quality off his play while playing through rust. He may not stick somewhere where he is looked at as a developmental piece in the same way Otto has been, but it isn't absurd to realize that they were once the same caliber player, before a few ACL injuries and failed exams. Greg had been in the gym working, and if you read his comments he's just needing to get used to the speed of the game. Just because Otto has excellent IQ doesn't mean other wings can't have it too. Whitt is no Otto in that department, but he has a pretty versatile set of skills for his position and he uses them when the opportunity presents itself and he doesn't make a lot of stupid plays. He's displayed excellent fundamentals all throughout summer league (even when he wasn't playing well) and is starting to show his value on the court. He will be on someone's roster in the near future and I wouldn't surprised to see him have a career at least like Dajuans, if not better than Hollis. I also wouldn't be completely shocked if he met or rose past Otto's level, for that matter. Well, that makes two people that wouldn't be shocked if Greg turns out to be a better NBA player than Otto. I love Greg's game and was upset when his GU career fizzled. However it's not a personal slight against the kid to point out he's not in Otto's neighborhood. I'm not saying Greg WILL BE a better player than Otto or even that he is. I think that he COULD BE and is at least as good as Otto. And Otto is my favorite player in the entire NBA because of how he works in all aspects of the game. But I ain't blind. There are things that Greg can do that I've yet to see Otto do. Again, Otto's my favorite NBA player.
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dreamhoya
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Post by dreamhoya on Jul 17, 2015 23:29:01 GMT -5
That's the problem, Joshua's separating himself from something that only HE can handle: "And if I'm able to come back and be able to do that, I saw with Dexter Pittman when he was on the team and lost 60 pounds, I would love that."
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rockhoya
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Post by rockhoya on Jul 17, 2015 23:35:22 GMT -5
I'm sorry, but do you know the definition of quick twitch? Just because Greg was smooth and coordinated doesn't mean that he wasn't moving quickly or reacting quickly. Smh I really can't believe people are sleeping on him so much. I mean I know he didn't graduate a Houa but it's only been two years. Greg could compete with the best of them, and still can. That's why he's looked a lot better and more prepared than Otto did coming into the NBA. And for the record, I'm not one of the people trying to say Greg is as good as Otto right now, because that would be asinine. All I'm saying is they have similar talent levels and it wouldn't surprise me to see Whitt be as or more successful going forward, but it also wouldn't surprise me to see his talent plateau and be an end of the bench player. There's a reason he has 3 partially guaranteed offers after not being heavily recruited, not having played organized basketball in 2 years, and coming off of two ACL surgeries. He still isn't back to game shape or speed, but it seems that he's doing something right. Are you trying to say he has above average NBA athleticism? Because I really don't see it. I'm rooting for Greg to succeed as well, but I just don't see Greg being that much more superior than Otto athletically. At best they are about the same athletically at the NBA level which is to say they have average NBA athleticism. No, I've never attempted to make that claim. All I was trying to say is that Whitt is a better natural athlete than Otto and that's it's not even debatable, but obviously you see more parity there. Agree to disagree I guess.
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rockhoya
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Jul 17, 2015 23:37:10 GMT -5
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Post by rockhoya on Jul 17, 2015 23:37:10 GMT -5
It is one thing to not think Greg was/is a great athlete. It is quite another to rate Otto superior on the athleticism front. And I say that as a person who believes Otto is the best player of the III era. As for Greg lacking displays of athleticism first of all IMO I think some of you must have blinders on in regards to Greg. Of course it is only a small sampling to judge by I guess. But I have to say that while at Georgetown neither Jeff Green nor Hollis Thompson displayed some of the stunning athleticism I see from them in the NBA. I just don't see it. He is nowhere near the level of athlete of a Lebron James, pre injury Paul George, Andrew Wiggins, Loul Deng, Harrison Barnes, Giannis. young Paul Pierce, Kawahii Leonard, Corey Brewer etc, etc. Neither Otto or Greg are in that level athletically. That much is obvious, but no one is trying to argue that. Though I'd argue that he pre-injury he was better than Brewer and pretty darn comparable to guys like Giannis. I know buzz never lived up to his hs hype but re watch the UCLA game where Whitt smothers him or the comeback against Marquette in the phone booth fueled by Greg stopping DJOs penetration while playing up on him. Obviously Greg hasn't shown the same pure jumping ability as some of the athletes you listed above, but obviously athleticism is much more than your vert or full-court sprint. Greg can do some things with his athleticism (coordination-wise) that some of those guys may not be able to do. Take off your blinders.
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Post by professorhoya on Jul 17, 2015 23:38:02 GMT -5
That's the problem, Joshua's separating himself from something that only HE can handle: "And if I'm able to come back and be able to do that, I saw with Dexter Pittman when he was on the team and lost 60 pounds, I would love that." Heat would be a great place for him with Zo looking over him and Udonis Haslem who was heavy at Florida and then ballooned to 300 lbs and back to 235 lbs before finally settling in with the Heat.
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dreamhoya
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Post by dreamhoya on Jul 17, 2015 23:40:12 GMT -5
I think you'd find that Luol and Harrison is debatable on that list. Greg's on par with them. Young Paul Pierce? Hm. Unless I'm thinking of "athlete" and "athleticism" in the wrong way...
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Post by professorhoya on Jul 17, 2015 23:41:39 GMT -5
Are you trying to say he has above average NBA athleticism? Because I really don't see it. I'm rooting for Greg to succeed as well, but I just don't see Greg being that much more superior than Otto athletically. At best they are about the same athletically at the NBA level which is to say they have average NBA athleticism. No, I've never attempted to make that claim. All I was trying to say is that Whitt is a better natural athlete than Otto and that's it's not even debatable, but obviously you see more parity there. Agree to disagree I guess. But it is debatable. Neither has elite NBA athleticism. And I really don't see Whit as being that much better of a natural athlete than Otto. They are about the same IMO.
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Post by professorhoya on Jul 17, 2015 23:47:20 GMT -5
I think you'd find that Luol and Harrison is debatable on that list. Greg's on par with them. Young Paul Pierce? Hm. Unless I'm thinking of "athlete" and "athleticism" in the wrong way... Barnes will surprise you. 7 foot wingspan and 39.5 inch vertical and 38 inch no step. (Just for comparison Otto has a 37 inch vertical but only a 27 inch no step vertical). Barnes had one of the highest verticals and no step verticals in that draft. There was a reason he was #1 coming out of high school. The problem with him is he doesn't really use his athleticism all the time, he doesn't have that mentality and plays kind of soft. But the flashes of his athleticism appear at the highest level and Golden State was probably smart in not trading him and Klay Thompson away for Kevin Love.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jul 18, 2015 3:12:33 GMT -5
Greg was/is a prospect Otto is a player.. That's the difference to me
Agree that Greg is a bit more athletic but Otto is more refined and has more motor... both have the ability to make an impact in the league obviously and its great for the program if they do. Rooting for both guys
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tashoya
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Post by tashoya on Jul 18, 2015 9:15:15 GMT -5
Greg was/is a prospect Otto is a player.. That's the difference to me Agree that Greg is a bit more athletic but Otto is more refined and has more motor... both have the ability to make an impact in the league obviously and its great for the program if they do. Rooting for both guys Agreed. Greg is more athletic. Not by a huge margin. But Otto is a better basketball player. By a wide margin. It's very clear which of the two has put in the work on their game.
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rockhoya
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Jul 18, 2015 10:17:49 GMT -5
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Post by rockhoya on Jul 18, 2015 10:17:49 GMT -5
Greg was/is a prospect Otto is a player.. That's the difference to me Agree that Greg is a bit more athletic but Otto is more refined and has more motor... both have the ability to make an impact in the league obviously and its great for the program if they do. Rooting for both guys Agreed. Greg is more athletic. Not by a huge margin. But Otto is a better basketball player. By a wide margin. It's very clear which of the two has put in the work on their game. Agreed. But just throwing out my caveat from earlier again, just because Otto works hard on his game doesn't mean that Whitt doesn't as well. Soph year Greg wasn't even close to the player he is today, that much is a fact. He has improved as well. Not as much as Otto, but pretty considerably nonetheless. His talent hasn't plateaus yet
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Post by hoyasaxa2003 on Jul 18, 2015 10:22:16 GMT -5
You can debate athleticism all day, but the idea that Whittington and Porter were equal college players is simply untrue. Porter was always the far better offensive player.
In their freshman year, Porter's offensive efficiency was 117.5 compared to Whittington's 96.7. While the following year was only a half-season for Whittington, again Porter's offensive efficiency was 118.8 to Whittington's 98.8.
For all his athleticism, Whittington really never came close to Porter's level on offense. Would he have improved had he not been kicked off the team? That's very possible. But, at the the time he left the team, Porter was always the better player.
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rockhoya
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Jul 18, 2015 11:34:26 GMT -5
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Post by rockhoya on Jul 18, 2015 11:34:26 GMT -5
You can debate athleticism all day, but the idea that Whittington and Porter were equal college players is simply untrue. Porter was always the far better offensive player. In their freshman year, Porter's offensive efficiency was 117.5 compared to Whittington's 96.7. While the following year was only a half-season for Whittington, again Porter's offensive efficiency was 118.8 to Whittington's 98.8. For all his athleticism, Whittington really never came close to Porter's level on offense. Would he have improved had he not been kicked off the team? That's very possible. But, at the the time he left the team, Porter was always the better player. Nobody is trying to compare their fressn years on offense and shooting efficiency isn't the end all. Is Kyle Korver a better offensive player than Kobe? Otto just stuck to what he was good at while Whitt was clearly trying to improve his offensive game through trial and error. Greg's 3pt percentage really suffered during the first 12 games of soph year, but literally every other part of his game improved. They were both averaging 12 and 7 before he got suspended, so I don't understand this narrative of Otto being clear and away the better player. They were both lottery talents and neither made the BE All-Rookie squad. Otto was a great defender, but Whitt had more value as a defender in part because of his versatility and better ability to protect he rim and much better lateral quickness. Of course you're entitled to your opinion, but the benefit of hindsight doesn't always make for the strongest evidence. Otto always had a better midrange and offensive rebounding game, but he was also limited in several areas until he took on more responsibility. My point is that it used to be a coinflip between the two. Also, for people that think Otto was clearly the better hs player, where's the evidence for that other than a Rivals number??
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Post by hoyasaxa2003 on Jul 18, 2015 11:42:52 GMT -5
You can debate athleticism all day, but the idea that Whittington and Porter were equal college players is simply untrue. Porter was always the far better offensive player. In their freshman year, Porter's offensive efficiency was 117.5 compared to Whittington's 96.7. While the following year was only a half-season for Whittington, again Porter's offensive efficiency was 118.8 to Whittington's 98.8. For all his athleticism, Whittington really never came close to Porter's level on offense. Would he have improved had he not been kicked off the team? That's very possible. But, at the the time he left the team, Porter was always the better player. Nobody is trying to compare their fressn years on offense and shooting efficiency isn't the end all. Otto just stick to what he was good at while Whitt was clearly trying to improve his offensive game through trial and error. Greg's 3pt percentage really suffered during the first 12 games of soph year, but literally every other part of his game improved. They were both averaging 12 and 7 before he got suspended, so I don't understand this narrative of Otto being clear and away the better player. Of course you're entitled to your opinion, but the benefit of hindsight doesn't always make for the strongest evidence. Otto always had a better midrange and offensive rebounding game, but he was also limited in several areas until he took on more responsibility. My point is that it used to be a coinflip between the two. Also, for people that think Otto was clearly the better hs player, where's the evidence for that other than a Rivals number?? I agree offensive efficiency is not everything, but it is meaningful when you say "they were both averaging 12 and 7." I would take Otto's 12 with his much better efficiency than Whittington's with lower efficiency because in the long run Otto's is worth far more to the team - if they both took an equal number of shots, Otto would score more points per possession (and it wasn't even close). I just don't see how you can say that Otto wasn't clearly the better player when he was drafted third following the season. I realize Whittington did not finish the season so we have incomplete information, but I think there is absolutely no chance he would have been drafted top 10 had he stayed. Also, while Whittington was super touted by some for defense (and he was very good defensively, I agree), Porter was also an excellent defender. I realize Whittington got hurt and had his problems, but if he was good enough to be a top 10 type, he'd be in the NBA already and not playing in the summer league. Please don't misinterpret what I am saying - I wish him the best and hope he succeeds.
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